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SGT Rock
2005-01-23, 17:04
http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/BIS.jpg

This is a long post. I will eventually get to update my Ion Stove page (http://hikinghq.net/sgt_stove/ion_stove.html) with this info, but I figured putting it up here for now might get some comments going…

If you follow my pre-war experiments, you would know I have been trying to make the alcohol stove as efficient as possible while still maintaining consistent performance since many alcohol stove designs can be finicky – operating well at home, but performing like crap on the trail. Other goals are to try and keep the stove as absolutely light as possible to maintain the lowest average weight carried per day possible and to make the stove design so simple that anyone should be able to make it with limited tools and experience.

Just to rehash some points:

Denatured Alcohol is typically mixture of two types of alcohol. The blend depends on the manufacturer, but the purpose is to avoid this alcohol turning into cheap booze. Wal-Mart carries Zip Clean brand SLX denatured alcohol, the standard fuel I use. (MSDS here: http://www.barezall.com/pdfs/763.pdf)

Methyl Alcohol has 10,200 BTUs per pound and is made from wood grains. It is also the type of alcohol that causes blindness and death if ingested. Methyl Alcohol is sold as HEET fuel line dryer and also comprises 42% of what is sold as denatured alcohol in the 32 ounce cans at Wal-Mart.

Ethyl Alcohol has 12,550 BTUs per pound and is made from grains. It's what you drink in beer, tequila, etc. You can get it as Everclear (90% pure) or in denatured alcohol from Wal-Mart because it makes up the other 51% of that formula.

So the next thing I had to figure out is what the exact definition of a BTU is. Well, a BTU is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of a pound of water by one degree. A 60 degree pint of water needs about 152 BTUs of energy to achieve boil. SO if a pound of methyl alcohol has about 10,200 BTUs what does that mean?

A pound of alcohol is approximately 19.5 fluid ounces, which equals 577 ml. An ml of alcohol has 17.6 BTUs - so it would take about 9 ml of fuel to boil the 60 degree pint of water in a stove that is 100% efficient. Since no stove is 100% efficient, we will accept aim to make it as efficient as possible.

In my tests of the original Ion stove, I could only get the performance to 12ml which would make the stove 75% efficient, but I found this stove was not as consistent in field conditions as I would like. The stove design was also not that easy to build, and the design was not as stable as it could be.
When I posted that stove, I made sure people knew it was still a work in progress and not a final design; after all it was just basically a shrunken Turbo V8 stove (http://hikinghq.net/sgt_stove/sgt_v8stove.html)

Then the war started and I was sent to Iraq. Design and testing work was ceased for a while, until I had some free time and some alcohol to play with. At that point I started working on a new design that just sort of evolved in my head after playing with air flow and pot height. What I found was that a lot of the design things done to a stove don’t really matter when it comes to performance, what does matter is:

1. Keeping the flame as centered under the bottom of the pot as possible. The best way to do this is to not make a wide burner pattern like most soda can stove have

2. Preventing the flames from getting too big, too fast, this can be done by limiting the burner area thus limiting the amount of fuel that can vaporize and burn at any one time.

3. Put the pot in the optimal place on the flame which is the point where the flames start to turn orange. This is done based on stove design and pot design and can require some trail and error.

4. Windscreen design. This is a very important factor but really separate from stove design. The only integral factor really is how tall to make one, and since weight is the issue, then keeping the stove and pot stand as short as possible is the best way to make sure you only need to use minimal material in the windscreen. For efficient windscreens look here: http://hikinghq.net/sgt_stove/wind_screen.html

So if fancy double walls, pressurization, super air flow, etc don’t make a stove work any better, then how do you make a stove that is as simple as possible yet provides the efficiency you need?

Well start with the smallest, shortest possible fuel container/burner that could hold up to 1 ounce of fuel. This way you are not limited to the minimum required to boil a pint in good weather so that if you need more water heated or there are cold temperatures that require more fuel, you do have the option to use more. For this I figured a container about 2” diameter and ¾”tall should be about right. The V8 style cans (Red Bull, small juice cans, etc) are the right diameter, but they are curved on the bottom which uses up some space that could be used for fuel. I have looked around but haven’t found anything yet that is as suitable. So the easy fix was to pound out the bottom as best as possible.

The next thing was to make the burner as small as possible. To do this I tried using just a ¾” hole for filling and priming in the center of the burner, but this limited the flow just a little too much. I tried various burner-hole configurations and came up with a 7/8” center hole with a circle of six smaller burner holes in a 1-1/2” circle. This allowed for the fastest warm up of the stove without allowing it to get too hot too fast while also keeping a nice halo of orange flame right at the bottom of the pot.

To keep the pot in the “sweet spot” of the stove, I played with the height of the pot stand until I hit right at 5/8” above the burner which worked equally as well with my curved bottom pot and various straight sided pots I tried. This was also advantageous since it allowed for a standardized stand to be made with ½” hardware cloth.

As for windscreen, well I already cracked the code on that…

So since there was no double wall design or special pressurized system or anything, this stove was VERY easy to build with a pair of scissors and a pocket knife. If all you had was a Leatherman Micra this would be the only tool you need to make it. To make combining the halves even easier (which is the hardest step) I found it was easier to just slide the burner in (after fabrication) to an almost complete can until you got it to the bottom, then trimmed the bottom can to height. In fact, the only hard part to replicate on the trail would be hardware cloth, but with a coat hanger or bailing wire you could build a suitable substitute like this: http://wings.interfree.it/html/GLKirby.html

This stove is basically the same sort I made in Iraq that I called the BIS stove (Baghdad Ion Stove) at the time. I have talked numerous people through this design now, and almost every one has been able to make one of these with very similar performance at the first try including total novices to stove construction. http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=749

The Test

O.K. now for the numbers.

Ion Stove: Weight: .5 ounce (13 gram) stove, .3 ounces (9 grams) windscreen. Total = 0.8 ounces (22 grams).

Tests

Standards:

1. 2 cups of water at 50˚ F. (10˚ C.).
2. Pot used is a Snow Peak 720ml titanium pot.
3. Stove tested using the windscreen and lid.
4. Alcohol was tested at just 15ml of alcohol.
5. The amount was double checked using a scale. The weight of one fluid ounce of alcohol is .82 avoirdupois ounces (24 grams).
6. The test was repeated three times, the average was used.
7. Starting time was when the stove was lit.
8. The stove was allowed to completely cool between tests.
10. Altitude is 1000’ above sea level.
11. Barometric pressure was 30.35, so boiling point was determined to be 210.4˚ F (99.1˚ C.).
12. Temperature was measured using a type K thermocouple and digital multimeter.
13. Air temperature was 65˚ F. (18.3˚ C.) with a fan running to simulate a light wind.
14. Scale used was a Royal EX3.

Temperature.........................15 ml
150˚ F. (65.6˚ C.)..................4:30 (270 sec)
175˚ F. (79.4˚ C.)..................5:15 (315 sec)
200˚ F. (93.3˚C.)...................6:35 (395 sec)
Max heat ............................210.4˚ F. (99.1˚ C)
Time to max heat..................7:15 (435 sec)
Burn Out..............................7:50 (470 sec)
Time above 175˚ F. (65.6˚ C.)..2:35 (155 sec)
Fuel weight......................... 0.42 ounces (12 grams)

The Evaluation

Using my time Hiking vs. Weight scenario here are the numbers:

**Note. For purposes of this illustration I am considering my fuel bottle a 9 ounce (270ml) soda bottle weighing 0.8 ounces (22 grams).**

Standard is 7 days hiking, although if you go on a shorter hike, the average weight per day will go down. The chart assumes you will make 2 hot meals a day requiring a full boil.

Stove Weight = empty stove weight.

Fuel per boil is the volume of fuel needed to boil water (true boil).

Weight is the actual weight on the fuel needed.

Average Weight/day is what you will carry on average in weight over a 7 day hike without re-supply.

Total fuel needed shows the amount of fuel you will need at the start of a 7 day hike.

Trail days are computed from day out (7) to last day (day 1) If you decided to do 5 days between re-supply, then day 5 weight would be the start weight for your trip.

Total fuel needed in ounces gives you an idea of what sized fuel container is needed

Stove type:.......................................... Ion Stove
Stove Weight (with windscreen)............... 0.8 ounces (22 grams)
Fuel container weight (9oz/270ml bottle).. 0.8 ounces (22 grams)
Fuel per boil.......................................... 0.51 ounces (15cc)
Fuel per boil (weight).............................. 0.42 (12 grams)
Average Wight/day ..................................4.47 ounces (128 grams)
Total fuel needed....................................7 ounces (210cc)
Total fuel weight.....................................5.74 ounces (168 grams)
Empty weight (day 0)..............................1.6 ounces (44 grams)
Day 1................................................. ..2.44 ounces (68 grams)
Day 2................................................. ..3.28 ounces (92 grams)
Day 3................................................. ..4.12 ounces (116 grams)
Day 4................................................. ..4.96 ounces (140 grams)
Day 5................................................. ..5.80 ounces (164 grams)
Day 6................................................. ..6.64 ounces (188 grams)
Day 7 (Start weight)...............................7.48 ounces (212 grams)

So this isn’t the absolute lightest stove I have ever made or maybe not the absolute most efficient stove I have ever made, I do consider it the lightest one with the most consistent performance. It even out performed the very reliable Trangia Westwind stove in these tests when compared side by side in the same conditions.

Salvelinus
2005-01-23, 21:42
Thanks, SGT Rock, for all this hard work. I know it's fun, but I really appreciate your sharing of this information.

I built my first stove (pepsi-can) about one year ago, and was very impressed with its light weight and effectiveness using either my 2 lt stainless pot or a WM grease pot. However, I recently got the "other" WM grease pot made by Ekco. It is thin guage stainless with an attached wire handle, holds almost 3 cups, and is narrower than it is tall.

This new pot has been a challenge, because my old pepsi-can stove has a flame pattern which is too wide for it. I needed the flames closer to the center, so I went back to the drawing board.

In the past few weeks I've made half-a-dozen different stove designs, but none were able to meet my goal: boil 2 cups in the new pot with 12 ml fuel. I read your reviews, and just made your "old" Ion stove--the epoxy is still drying. Can't wait to try it, but I think I'll go ahead and make this one too.

Sounds very promising, but I'm a little confused about the burner holes surrounding the filler hole. Do they really jet flame? Seems like the larger hole in the middle would negate any pressure buildup for the jet holes, but you know what you're doing, and I haven't built it yet to see for myself. Just give me a few minutes . . . ;)

Thanks again for this site and the sharing of all your knowledge!

--Scott

Salvelinus
2005-01-23, 22:14
Sorry, one more question--what size are the burner holes?

--Scott

SGT Rock
2005-01-23, 22:14
Good questions...

The flames make a nice halo of fire there between the pot and the stove, without the holes the stove sort of sputters and spits. You would think that it would negate pressure buildup, but it doesn't. The last one I made didn't fit as snug at first and the burner kept getting pushed up slightly by the pressure inside the stove every time it burned until I crimped the top down a little.

FYI, at Kincora this year I made a similar stove for a hiker using soda cans since I was out of the smaller cans.The test burn went well and I got a report that the stove worked great. The center hole, burner holes, and pot height were more important factors than the can size. You could build a similar stove with some soda cans and try it out to see how well it works for you. I also made some similar stoves at Kinkora with shorter pot stands, those hikers probably cussed those slow stoves - they will still boil, but they take forever!

PS. I don't have an exact size for the burner holes, I just sort of drill them with the tip of a knife blade until they look right. I stick a safety pin through the holes to check them and it goes in easy if that gives you an idea of size.

SGT Rock
2005-01-24, 10:21
The stove design is now 13 grams or a little under 0.5 ounces. I would like to cut that down to about 0.3 ounces or about 8 grams. Currently the stove part itself weighs about 2-3 grams and the stand is about 10-11 grams, so what I am looking for is a little brain storming from some other stove geeks. Does anyone have an idea for a stand that would be durable, stable, lighter than steel hardware cloth, and not interfere with the operation of the stove?

Lets here some ideas!

Lanthar
2005-01-24, 10:26
You could shave ~30% from the stand weight by snipping out some of the horizontal pieces of wire.

Oh, and some questions... 1) Are you still using the little juice cans? 2) How are you "pounding" the middle flat? Just shoving a dowel rod in it?

SGT Rock
2005-01-24, 10:37
Lanthar,

I thought about snipping out some of the parts, I was a little concerned about durability at this size, but I suppose it is worth a shot.I have done this in some of my larger stoves to save some weight with success, but those stands have a lot more substance to work with so taking some out doesn't create high stress points for the stove. My main concern is only having a few points suspending the pot with that thin wire and the heat combined with pot weight possibly causing a buckle when the stove is burning.

1 - yes I am still using juice cans, in this case they only had V8 cans in that size at the store, but I have seen quite a few energy drinks now in this diameter can.

2 - in my case I just use my Gerber pliers. I open the pliers and use one of the handels to tap the bottom out. This often causes a reverse of the bottom to the point where the can will not sit flat, so after I get the stove together I turn it over and tap the center until it bends just that spot in enough for the stove to sit flat again.

blackdog
2005-01-24, 12:30
this pot stand, from http://www.andersj.se/ , is 17g for a pepsi can stove, so it should be possible to make a much lighter one for the Bagdad Ion Stove.

SGT Rock
2005-01-24, 12:33
Does that 17g include the pot stand? It looks like something I could build myself very easy. I will give it a try when I get home.

Thanks.

blackdog
2005-01-24, 12:34
Forgot to attach the third view, of the collapsed pot stand, to the post.

blackdog
2005-01-24, 12:40
Does that 17g include the pot stand?

The weight of the stand is 17g, but as it's made for a bigger burner it should be possible to cut the weight when making a similar stand for the BIS. (Thinner wire could be used and the holder "claw" for the burner might be eliminated.)

Lanthar
2005-01-24, 14:34
Lanthar,

I thought about snipping out some of the parts, I was a little concerned about durability at this size, but I suppose it is worth a shot.I have done this in some of my larger stoves to save some weight with success, but those stands have a lot more substance to work with so taking some out doesn't create high stress points for the stove. My main concern is only having a few points suspending the pot with that thin wire and the heat combined with pot weight possibly causing a buckle when the stove is burning.

1 - yes I am still using juice cans, in this case they only had V8 cans in that size at the store, but I have seen quite a few energy drinks now in this diameter can.

2 - in my case I just use my Gerber pliers. I open the pliers and use one of the handels to tap the bottom out. This often causes a reverse of the bottom to the point where the can will not sit flat, so after I get the stove together I turn it over and tap the center until it bends just that spot in enough for the stove to sit flat again.


since the horizontal member are non-load bearing sacrificing some of them shoud'n affect anything. if it helps leave more at the top and less at the bottom as the bottom won't get significantly hot. you could also use some stainless cloth which would be stonger / lighter

another question - are you ginding any issue with getting the burner to slide into the cut off can? this tends to be a pain for me on a regular basis.

SGT Rock
2005-01-24, 15:10
The stove design is now 13 grams or a little under 0.5 ounces. I would like to cut that down to about 0.3 ounces or about 8 grams. Currently the stove part itself weighs about 2-3 grams and the stand is about 10-11 grams, so what I am looking for is a little brain storming from some other stove geeks. Does anyone have an idea for a stand that would be durable, stable, lighter than steel hardware cloth, and not interfere with the operation of the stove?

Lets here some ideas!

I wrote this stuff this morning from my flawed memory. It looks like the stove weighs about 5-6 grams and the stand weighs 7-8 grams. I would still like to get the wieght to 8 grams total, but that looks next to impossible now.

I tried trimming the hardware cloth stand down, but the best I got it too was about 6 grams, and I don't know how good it will do it's job anymore. But I did come up with another idea. That is to get some Ti sheet metal from www.thru-hiker.com (http://www.thru-hiker.com/materialsStore.asp?subcat=28-bottom&iLevel=2&txtCatName=2) and make two flat "U" shaped pieces 3" x 1.5" and connect them into an "X" shaped pot support with legs. I made a template from some gutter flashing to show what I am thinking of, it is the attachment.


another question - are you ginding any issue with getting the burner to slide into the cut off can? this tends to be a pain for me on a regular basis.

"ginding"? I think I know what you mean. I found that by leaving the bottom can mostly in-tact when making the stove and then trimming off the excess that it was easier to slide the two cans together that way instead of cutting the lower can to height first and trying that way.

Lanthar
2005-01-24, 17:58
ha, yeah that was supposed to be finding...

SGT Rock
2005-01-24, 18:27
I made a test stand from some heavier weight aluminum and it did fine for testing, it came out at 4 grams:

http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/100_0278.JPG

It held the pot during a boil without any degradation:

http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/100_0279.JPG

I don't know if it will handle a lot of set up and tear down. I checked into www.thru-hiker.com and found I can get a piece of Ti that is just the right size to make one out of for about $5.50. I'm going to order enough to make five pot stands this coming payday and make enough for me and both of my boys plus some extra to play. I hope it comes in at about the same weight or lighter, by my calculations it should weight about 3.3 grams for the stand when I make it from Ti.

Major Slacker
2005-01-25, 20:07
Does anyone have an idea for a stand that would be durable, stable, lighter than steel hardware cloth, and not interfere with the operation of the stove?

I swiped Sgt. Krohn's coat hanger idea and made three loops, each about 3 inches long, and fit them into extra "burner" holes in the top of the stove. I did not pound out the bottom of the stove, so the bottom ends of the loops lock into the groove around the bottom. They worked surprisingly well, but they add about 11 grams to the weight of the stove. I think if I cut them down to 1.5 inches or so they might meet your reduced weight requirements. More tinkering tomorrow.

SGT Rock
2005-01-25, 20:18
Have you tried this one:

http://wings.interfree.it/Resources/stfinal.jpg

I made one as a test and it was indeed lighter than the hardware cloth version, just not as light as I was looking for.

Major Slacker
2005-01-25, 20:25
Have you tried this one:

I tried one a year or so ago and was surprised that it was heavier, less strong and less stable than other designs. I was hoping the Sgt. Krohn type would use less wire and weigh less.

SGT Rock
2005-01-25, 20:43
It is less stable, but maybe you were trying wire thicker than I was. I personally am stoked to see how well Ti will work.

Guardianva
2005-01-26, 14:12
Sgt Rock,

I've seen your Ion Stove design in two places. In one you cut a center hole of 7/8" and in the other you scribe around the edge and take the whole center of the can out. Which design do you currently use?

Also, by not pounding out the bottom the curve helps route the fuel to the sides and thus to the wicking material. The curve would help in not letting the fuel pool in the middle.

I hope to attempt my first build in a few weeks.

SGT Rock
2005-01-26, 14:29
The newer design does not using wicking matrial. The newer design is the one with just the 7/8" hole in the center, not the entire bottom cut out. I will update that page eventually.

Major Slacker
2005-01-26, 17:18
It is less stable, but maybe you were trying wire thicker than I was. I personally am stoked to see how well Ti will work.

O.K., I cut down the coat hanger loops, but at 8 grams they're still too heavy. If I can get an attachment to work, here's a photo:

Major Slacker
2005-01-26, 17:26
I made one as a test and it was indeed lighter than the hardware cloth version, just not as light as I was looking for.

For a year or so I've been cutting tripod stands from the sidewalls of various aluminum and steel cans using a pattern I drew on the computer. The aluminum ones weigh 3 grams, are stable and surprisingly strong. The steel ones weigh more, of course, but they are really strong and work best with the hotter stoves. Here's a photo:

Hog On Ice
2005-01-26, 18:03
now that is a good idea - strong and light too - and a new way to recycle PBR cans (grin)

Major Slacker
2005-01-26, 18:20
now that is a good idea - strong and light too - and a new way to recycle PBR cans (grin)

Sorry about the quality, but here's an action shot:

Mutinousdoug
2005-01-26, 18:25
Just to keep this thread going, I saw this on Southernpaddler and might try it:
It's an interesting stove-a little larger than the v8, but like it says: maybe good for two people or a winter trip. Made from Heineken cans and using a penny to seal the fill hole.
claims to boil 2C water in 3.5 minutes using .75oz ETOH and continue to simmer for 40 minutes on 2 oz of ETOH.
The whole thing weighs 43 gms but the pot stand weighs 24 gms so that could use some tweaking.
http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/penny.html#
Of course this means you have to buy at least two Heinekens. :o

SGT Rock
2005-01-26, 18:56
Sorry about the quality, but here's an action shot:

Now that stand has style. I love it. :elefant:

Major Slacker
2005-01-26, 19:30
Now that stand has style. I love it.

Thanks, Sarge. You might like these, too. They don't win any points for saving weight, but they have style. Actually, the one in the middle would weigh 7 grams w/o the fiberglass if made with an aluminum can. I have to scrounge more cat food cans from my neighbor to try it out.

Major Slacker
2005-01-26, 19:36
Action shot of the one on the right:

SGT Rock
2005-01-26, 19:39
They are pretty. Looks like they take some finesse to make one from a can.

Major Slacker
2005-01-26, 20:03
They are pretty. Looks like they take some finesse to make one from a can.

Again, thank you. Maybe Dad was wrong, and art school wasn't such a waste of time after all. ;)

Salvelinus
2005-01-29, 20:35
Back to the original topic for a minute . . .

Sgt. Rock, I've tried both Ion stove versions, and neither is working for my little pot. What I mean by that is, I can boil 16 oz water with either of your stoves, but with about 16 ml fuel. I'm trying to get that down to 12, but playing with pot height hasn't helped.

I've followed your instructions EXACTLY, with the exception on the original version of using JB Weld to ensure it is sealed. I didn't use it on the new version, just crimped the top like you did. Also, on the newer version, I'm not seeing the burner holes jet flame, but rather it seems to me to be an air inlet. Thoughts? Actually, when the pot is on, the flame just surrounds the entire top, anyway. Pretty cool looking. I'm wondering if the secret of your stove isn't really the size of the flame, etc., but rather limiting air access to control the burn?

Anyway, I'm getting pretty frustrated with this new pot. The dimensions are 3-3/4 inch diameter bottom, 4-1/4 inches tall. Maybe it's just too narrow to work? I'm going to try them on my other grease pot (the aluminum one) to see if the size makes a difference. Any ideas?

--Scott

SGT Rock
2005-01-29, 20:59
The newer Ion stove does control the fuel burn by limiting air, but the pot also reflects heat back at the stove to help it warm up. The first Ion stove mod I tried in Baghdad was similar to the newer version, except it didn't have the 6 holes.The stove just sputtered and spit, so my theory is that when the stove does start to warm up and vaporize the fuel, that those holes help serve as an outlet for the pressure. The haze or halo of flame that ends up coming around the top of the stove between the stove and pot is what it should look like, and under best conditions the flame should be blue and just turning yellow at the bottom of the pot.

This sort of leads me to some things I have learned about flames. Everyone knows blue is the hotter part of a flame, but what some people don't realize is that the yellow part of the flame is where the flame has more surface area and the temperature of yellow flame is close enough to the temperature of the blue flame not to matter much. When you see a flame, is is mostly hollow, well more like the inside is not flame, it is whatever fuel and air is producing the flame. Only the very outside edge of the flame is actually fire. To control a fire and get the most from it, you want the flames to end at the pot where they are just turning yellow and the flames stay under the pot, not going up the sides.

Anyway, 16ml ain't bad at all, especially considering your pot's depth. If you are happy with your pot, what difference is 4ml going to make? I mean 4ml won't even fill a soda bottle cap.

Salvelinus
2005-01-29, 23:14
Anyway, 16ml ain't bad at all, especially considering your pot's depth. If you are happy with your pot, what difference is 4ml going to make? I mean 4ml won't even fill a soda bottle cap.

Hehe. Yeah, I know. It's just the tinkerer in me. I'm sure you understand . . . it's a challenge. This stuff is really addictive!

I think the Red Bull is, too . . . :biggrin:

After my post, I decided to order the Antigravity gear pots. They cost about the same, and will probably work much better anyway. Can't stand the rolled-in rim on the aluminum wally pot.

Thanks for the perspective, Sarge . . . ;)

--Scott

SGT Rock
2005-01-30, 17:53
http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/IonLogo.gif

I have been thinking of selling the Ion stove. I still have stove sell pages but haven't gotten orders for them in a long time which has been fine with me. I hated selling Cat Stoves (wasn't my design), and making the other stoves one at a time by order wasn't fun to me. I prefered people making their own anyway. I plan to take those pages out anyway. But I have been tooling some of my work shop to make mass quantities of Ion stoves.

http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/ion212.gif

The instructions stay up make all ya'll want to. I'll just sell them to the folks that can't. Based on feedback from www.WhiteBlaze.net I'll offer some different colors and packaging. Later I may offer a windscreen kit, but I gotta find the materials in bulk. The only thing hold me up for now is the titanium. As soon as I get that and figure a fabrication system, then it will ge GAME ON!



ION STOVE

Congratulations on purchasing the Ion stove, the lightest, most fuel efficient alcohol backpacking stove made. The Ion stove is made from aluminum and the stand is made from military grade titanium. Even though titanium is a resilient metal, care should still be taken with any ultralight backpacking equipment to ensure its serviceability on the trail. With proper use and care, the Ion stove should last for as long as you do.

The Ion stove is the culmination of years of testing and design of various ideas that were driven by the desire to produce the lightest, most fuel efficient stove possible while still providing the consistent performance desired by an ultralight backpacker.

This stove is not designed for groups or heavy cooking, its intended use is for a solo ultralight hiker that only needs to boil water and do some simple cooking. Of course the Ion is so light, that a group of hikers could each carry their own stove…

ION Stove – Alcohol fuel stove.
Weight: 0.3 ounces (10 grams)
Height: 1.5” (3.81 cm) tall with stand Diameter: 3” (7.62 cm) with stand
Parts: Burner, Stand Bottom, and Stand Top.
Performance: To boil one pint of water @ 212.4° F (100° C) for at least 60 seconds…
Air Temperature:..................Fuel required:.......................Time to Boil:
70°F (21°C) or above………....0.3-0.4 fluid ounces (10-12ml)……~8:30
35°F to 69°F (2°C to 20°C)…0.5-06 fluid ounces (15-18ml)……~10:30
Below 35°F (2°C)………….......0.7-0.8 fluid ounces (20-24ml)……~12:30
**Note: these statistics assume you are using a windscreen and reflector**

Before Use: Ensure you read all warnings on the back of these instructions. You may also need to trim the windscreen. Cut the windscreen so that it is tall enough to reach the bottom of the pot handles. The screen should be long enough to wrap completely around the pot and have ¼” for an air gap all the way around the pot. The Windscreen has holes along half the length, if you need to trim the windscreen, you should trim equal lengths from both ends. For diagrams and more instructions visit Hiking HQ at www.hikinghq.net and look for this page: http://hikinghq.net/sgt_stove/wind_screen.html

Stove Set Up:
1. Connect the three legs of the stove stand to form a tripod by connecting the top slots to the bottom slots (fig 2).
2. Place the stove under the stand and slide the two assemblies together (fig 3).
3. Set the stove on the heat reflector. Place the windscreen around your pot, if there is a breeze, face the portion of the windscreen without holes toward the breeze.
4. Fill the stove with the required amount of alcohol. If you use a soda bottle for fuel, one cap will hold approximately 0.15 - 0.20 ounces (5 - 6ml) of fuel.
5. Light the stove and place the pot on the stove stand.
Optional: The stand may serve as a stand for Esbit® fuel or Hexamine fuel. Simply place the fuel block on the aluminum foil reflector under the stand and light the fuel. Place the pot on the stand above the burning fuel.
**Note: After the stove has burned out, allow the stove to cool down before handling, this should take about 5 minutes**

I hope you enjoy the Ion stove as much as I have enjoyed designing it over the years. I hope it makes your trip successful.


http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/ion.jpg

and the warnings:


Filling and Lighting:
Acceptable fuels: methanol (such as HEET brand auto gas-line de-icer, or its generic equivalent), ethanol/methanol mixture (a.k.a. denatured alcohol sold in paint and hardware stores), pure ethanol (i.e. 200 proof grain alcohol sold in liquor stores and pharmacy). Isopropanol (i.e. ISO-HEET, or rubbing alcohol) is NOT recommended because it burns with a very sooty flame. NO OTHER FUELS ARE RECOMMENDED. USE OF OTHER FUELS BESIDES ALCOHOL VOIDS WARRANTY.

CAUTION: In daylight, the flames of an alcohol stove are virtually invisible. Unlike a white-gas or compressed-gas stove, there is not usually sound during burning to assure you that the stove is running. When lighting the stove in daylight, it helps to have the windscreen partially around the stove so that the flame can be seen more easily. DO NOT OVERFILL STOVE.

Before using your Ion Stove, please be sure to completely read the disclaimer, warranty and instructions described below. By using the stove, you agree to the terms of the disclaimer and warranty. Even if you are experienced with alcohol stoves, you will find the instructions useful.

DISCLAIMER

Backpacking involves serious dangers such as (but not limited to) injury, death, impairment of one's self or others, damage or destruction of property, and emotional trauma. All backpacking stoves create a potentially hazardous condition for the user. Seller assumes no responsibility for the condition and operation of this stove by buyer. Buyer assumes all responsibility for the use of this stove. Buyer assumes all risk of loss and injury and warrants that he or she will defend, indemnify and hold seller harmless. Buyer represents that no reliance is made upon any act or conduct of the seller.

This stove is intended for use with methanol (such as HEET gas-line antifreeze), commercial denatured alcohol (ethanol/methanol mixture), or pure ethanol ONLY! Other types such as Isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) are not recommended.

WARNING: NEVER use Coleman Fuel (white gas), gasoline, acetone, laquer thinner or a similarly volatile liquid inside this or any other alcohol stove. When lighted this stove vaporizes the fuel within creating pressure inside the chamber. The pressure generated by a fuel other than alcohol may build so rapidly that it cannot escape fully through the burner holes. The force may exceed the load strength of the stove walls. Using such fuels will almost certainly result in a large flare-up and may result in bursting of the stove chamber or even a grenade-like explosion.

CAUTION: DO NOT OVER-FILL THE STOVE. The stoves have a recommended maximum fuel capacity. The maximum recommended fuel capacity for the Ion Stove is 1 US fluid ounce (30 ml). Do not attempt to light this stove if the stove is in any position other than sitting upright on its base.

NEVER use this stove inside a tent, or under a low hanging vestibule, due to fire danger. Oxygen depletion and carbon monoxide poisoning may also be the result of using this stove in any confined space, causing injury or death. BE SAFE, NOT SORRY.

THERE IS A REMOTE POSIBBILITY of sharp surfaces along the edges of the windscreen and around the filler hole of the burner. Care should be taken when handling the windscreen and stove to avoid the possibility of injury.

WARRANTY
The Ion stove titanium stand has been tested to safely support a weight up to 5 lbs. (2.3 kg.) without deforming. The Ion stove is intended for use with a 1 quart (1 liter) pot. It can use larger pots, but generally a solo backpacker doesn’t need more than a 2 quart (2 liter) pot. If a full cook pot is placed forcefully or dropped onto the stove, a force many times the weight of the pot is created and this may result in deformity of the stand. The stove may also deform if dropped, stepped on, or stored loosely in a backpack. It is intended that it be stored inside a cook pot or other container. This stove burner is constructed of thin aluminum and it must be handled with care. With proper care this stove will last for many years. This stove was tested at the time of manufacture and was in good working order at the time of shipping. It is warranted to be free from structural defects for as long as the original buyer owns the stove. "Structural defects" refers specifically to voids or breaks in the wall surfaces or a broken or bent stand that rarely develop during normal use. In the rare case of a bona fide structural defect, seller agrees to pay the cost of return shipping charges and provide a new stove at no additional charge. Scratched paint, punctures, dents or other deformities that occur during use do not constitute structural defects. It is not recommended that the stove be operated in other than original condition and therefore seller makes no offer to repair any damages inflicted by buyer. No other warranty either express or implied is offered.



http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/a100_0284.jpg

And the price should be only about $19.

What do you think?

The Hammocker
2005-01-30, 18:11
Were you a lawyer in a past life (LOL)! I think the stove looks good but the price is steep.

Lanthar
2005-01-31, 00:18
Were you a lawyer in a past life (LOL)! I think the stove looks good but the price is steep.

not really, especially when you consider that tinman is selling his stove for 12$ and this one includes a titanium stand

SGT Rock
2005-01-31, 00:20
And mine looks cool ;)

Salvelinus
2005-01-31, 11:41
:cool:

That's one nice display. Very professional!

I'm not worthy . . . :adore:

--Scott

SGT Rock
2005-01-31, 12:34
The label has some tweaking to do. Black Dog made an excellent pic using 3d blender. Now I am trying to find stock for windscreens. Anyone happen to know the gauge, thickness, or microns of an oven liner or similar sheet aluminum?

Lanthar
2005-01-31, 13:11
If I remember right it's somewhere around 0.005... yeah, from a message from wood rat


I have been doing a little web-recon, want to pass on a couple of things. sales@alufoil.com. I have been looking for sources of aluim. foil for camp use, [not that junk in grocery stores] heres one I have comm. with. .005 gauge [thats what alum. pie pans are], 12in.x25ft,$25 a roll, 18in.x 25ft, $37 aroll.

I think you can get it slightly cheaper in bulk from mcmaster. But, by bulk I'm talking 100' rolls.

SGT Rock
2005-01-31, 20:00
My wife found a place with rolls of .004" at 12"x25' for about $13 a roll. We ordered one to see how well it works.

Here is something else cool, Black Dog did some rendering and came up with a sweet looking stand design. It not only works well and looks good, it is also easier to tool. Here is his idea:
http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/ion_tipod.jpg

And here is the practical final product. The angle in the legs was better straight up, but with a 30 degree bend in the length to add some stability. Note: the stove needs a new paint job because I scuffed it up with the first try at the new stand design.

http://hikinghq.net/images/Ion_stove/a100_0299.jpg

Kristi is going to kill me because I have been spending so much time on this.

Lanthar
2005-02-01, 13:21
that's pretty sweet for a first run through, still looks a little rough around the edges, but that's just until you get used to cranking them out... tri stand looks like it has potential... looks like it is lighter I assume? a single vertical cut in each leg, or are the locks a double cut?...

I'd suggest calling it tiPod though so the reference is right ;) ... would you make stands available for purchase seperately?

I've got one more idea / suggestion. At the base you're at, check the machine shop (or talk to the local mechanical engineering school), they "may" have a automated laser / water jet / plasma cutter, if you get in good with those guys, you may be able to "rent" the machine to bust out some of those stands with very high precision. then

SGT Rock
2005-02-01, 14:06
Those stands for now are 22 gauge steel, sort of thick and wierd to cut. The aluminum I use to make the templates is easier to work with. The problem is thickness of material when working with snips. When I get the Ti, the thinner material should be easy to cut, plus I will try to do it with a bandsaw, I think it should work better and look a lot nicer.

The locks were two single cuts, but it is sort of like a Chinese Jigsaw puzzle to put together. I am working on some minor changes to make the parts go together smother while maintaining the integrity of the structure.Basically a "V" shaped cut with a straight cut on one side with the angle cut on the other. Since the weight transfers to the outside edges, those will be straight and the edge to the center of each notch will have the angle. I have also found that making each leg into a slight arc instead of straight makes the pieces stand better and go together easier. I promise once I have all the bugs worked out I will make a set of plans for the Internet.

I like the idea of "TiPod", sort of marketing hype-cool stuff :D But for now I will only make enought to go with the stoves I am making. But at a later date I might offer them seperately, and maybe even custom sizes for a quote.

As to the machine shop at post, the problem with that is now I am assigned as an advisor to a NG unit, so I am not assigned to a base but living like a civilian. However a UT student might be able to help me.

Lanthar
2005-02-01, 16:19
ah, band saw should make it really nice... be sure to invest in good blades... or lots of them... but thin guage ti shouldn't hurt them too much...

SGT Rock
2005-02-01, 17:25
I bought a metal blade for my band saw, but I haven't tried cutting metal. When the Ti comes, the first test will be by dikes, then the second test will be done with the saw.

kank
2005-02-02, 20:33
I recognize that Rock and others have tested this stove rather extensively at this point, but I do want to report my experiences. I didn't have any energy drink cans handy, so I made an Ion using regular pepsi cans. I followed Rock's instructions rather precisely, even making templates to get the holes right. The only difference is that the regular pepsi cans have a wider bevel around the edge, so I had to cut the sides down quite short in order to keep the 7/8" height. The top and bottom didn't want to stay together at all, so I did JB Weld the seam. I wanted the 7/8" height anyway, since that's what my pot support is intended for (pot sits 5/8" above the stove).

At any rate, I'm using methyl alcohol, which I suspect is one reason that my efficiency figures have never equaled SGT Rock's on any of his stoves (and I've made most of them). Denatured alcohol does provide a bit more BTU output than methyl, due to its ethyl content, but the difference should not be more than a couple of mL. Unfortunately, my Ion just doesn't work very well at all. It wouldn't boil a pint of 56F water with 20mL of fuel and took more than 5 minutes to "prime" to the point where it was putting out useful heat. The stove just lightly simmers during most of the burn, consuming fuel but not getting the water hot. However, the stove does continuously get hotter throughout the burn until the fuel supply starts running out. By the time it reaches maximum burn, it's actually too hot for peak efficiency. Basically, my stove takes forever to heat up, then gets too hot. All of my prior double-wall stoves were much better at self-regulation.

The stove did boil water with 17mL isopropyl alcohol, but this was more fuel than my old Red Bull double-wall used, which makes my Ion worthless unless I improve it somehow. The isopropyl allowed my stove to heat up faster, which is why I could boil water with a reasonable amount of isopropyl, but would need perhaps 24mL of methyl to accomplish the same task (extrapolating here, but 20mL of methyl barely got water above 180F).

This disappointed me greatly, since the stove design seems almost foolproof. With no complicated double-wall construction, it was the easiest to make stove that I've tried and I expected performance to follow suit, since there is very little that can go wrong with such a simple design. Apparently, I was wrong. The instructions point out that the most important factor seems to be the central hole size, so I made certain that mine was 7/8" diameter and that the other holes were on a 1.5" diameter pattern. I mashed the bottom of my stove in fairly well, too, though I took care not to mess up the bottom lip since I wanted the stove to sit properly. I'm using a wide-bottomed pot (MSR Blacklite 1.5L) and my reliable KevinS windscreen/pot support. Initial water temperature for each test was about 56F and there was virtually no wind, simulated or otherwise. I expected the Ion to break this trend, but my stoves continue to dramatically underperform SGT Rock's. In fact, my Ion copy performs so badly that it's basically worthless. I recognize that everyone else's Ion seems to work fine, but did want to share my experience with it thus far. Any suggestions are appreciated. I'll post a picture of the stove if you would like to see it, but it looks just like Rock's except for the wider beveled edges of the pepsi cans.

On a happier note, I like the new pot support design (I prefer tripods when possible).

SGT Rock
2005-02-02, 21:44
Hmmm.I will have to just guess that there is something about the can that isn't coming into play with the smaller can. I had the same issue with the Ion during beta tests when the center hole is smaller. So for an experiment I would recommend taking a knife or something an opening the center hole up another 1/8" at a time and see what happens. Another thing to check - the "jet" holes (they aren't really jets) should be about 1/16", but I really doubt that is the issue.

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 00:56
The titanium showed up at my house today!

I cut the first test stand using dikes, and it didn't work so well. The brittle ti cracked and bent funny using those.

Then I put the Ti on the band-saw and it worked great. I 90% completed about a dozen stands in a couple of hours. Issues were the fact that the Ti won't bend to the same curve as my original steel and aluminum test stands. That means that the stands are actually ending up larger in diameter than planned since the arc changes the diameter of the stand (now dubbed TiPod). The other issue is the Ti is actually a little heavier than calculated by an extra 3 grams! So the overall stove weight ended up being 13 grams instead of 10.

Tomorrow the aluminum gets here. When that happens, I'll post photos of the completed product. Maybe I'll be able to have ten ready for sale next week.

dixicritter
2005-02-03, 09:14
The other issue is the Ti is actually a little heavier than calculated by an extra 3 grams! So the overall stove weight ended up being 13 grams instead of 10.



NOOOOOoooooooooooo :bawling:

:rolleyes: :biggrin:

Hog On Ice
2005-02-03, 11:56
I have heard that to bend Ti it works best to bend it while hot so you might want to warm it up with a torch before bending

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 12:03
Thanks HOI, I worked out a better system. I found how to get a tighter bend in it, but found it wasn't really needed. The new stands leave a little gap between the stand and stove. I figure this way someone that wanted to make a bigger soda can based stove to use with the stand (for whatever reason) would have some space to fitthe stand. Plus the wider base of the stand means a little better stability.

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 12:42
Oh, something else I have found, the Ti can be cut with a bandsaw fairly well if you practice, but it dulls the blade fairly quickly. I think I can get about 20 stands from an $11 blade, that will end up raising my price since that ain't a great ratio.

Lanthar
2005-02-03, 17:44
any guesstimates on how much it'll raise the price? never mind, i just did the math, it might still keep the price under $20

btw - I have a bastardization of this ion stove in a one-can-needed construction that I'd like to try...

also - as soon as you have the kits done, you can count on an order from me.

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-03, 18:00
Hey Top,
Are you cooling the bandsaw blade with lubricant? Heat will kill the saw tooth temper prematurely. Like right now! Even water is way better than nothing although you will then have to deal with rust. There are industrial coolants that are H2O based with soluble anti-corrosion additives for metal cutting. Ideally, you want to flood the work right at the point your tool (blade) is working on it. A little 3-1 oil would help and if you see it smoking, that's as hot as you want your blade to get. Ti is pretty tough stuff. Nobody knew how to work (weld, cut or form)with it before the Lockheed SR 71 (YF 12A) was built. If this is old news, just ignore me.
MutinousDoug

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 18:23
No, good info to know. I have a regular old home variety 9" band-saw. There isn't a lubrication system and I don't know if I should just build a water sprayer at the head, that seems a little messy and dangerous. Maybe adding a stiff sponge in the housing that lubricates the blade as it passes with a supply of 3 in 1 would be a good idea. I never though of that. That do you think?

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 18:26
Ohh, yes, I got the windscreen material in today. It looks SWEET! I have cut one and I will be posting a pic later tonight of the whole kit. I can keep the price below $20 a unit still. That is the overall goal, and still make enough profit off them to build some more.

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-03, 19:33
I wouldn't spray the blade. You don't need to be breathing that crap. If you could drip oil or coolant on the blade until it was wet along it's length, the act of boiling liquid takes alot of calories (heat) out of the blade. A squeeze type squirt bottle is used when drilling holes and the coolant is added to just keep the drill bit wet. That would work. Just drip enough coolant to keep the blade wet. A sponge might work if you keep it out of the teeth, along the back of the blade. It's going to make a mess in any case. In a machine shop the saw woud have a catchbasin that filters chips out of the coolant and recycles it with a little pump. That way the coolant cleans up the chips as it cools the blade and workpiece.
I guess I shouldn't have suggested 1in3 oil either; It's got volatiles in it for penetrating that aren't going to be good for your lungs if you are going to stand over your saw all day for the next 20-30 years. I just used that as a (poor) example and a way to tell if you're running your blade too hot. Does your saw have a speed control? In any case it should be running pretty slow; like: I'm guessing, 5-15 inches per second. Motor oil would be cheaper and just as good. Your local hardware store will have "cutting oil" for drilling and turning that is formulated so the fumes would (probably) be non-toxic. Anyway, if you use a little of that anytime you're cutting anything harder than Aluminum (even Aluminum, because it's so gummy) and slow down whenever you start seeing smoke, your tools will thank you with increased service life.
HTH, MutinousDoug

Major Slacker
2005-02-03, 19:33
Basically, my stove takes forever to heat up, then gets too hot. Any suggestions are appreciated.
I've had similar problems with a few of the stoves I've made and tested, usually because the stove/fuel wasn't getting enough air. The bigger Pepsi can probably needs a proportionally bigger center hole as Sgt. Rock suggests. The width of the pot might be a factor too. Raising the pot a bit higher above the stove might help.

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 20:16
Thanks for the cutting advice. I haven't seen smoke, but I have felt the heat in the metal as I cut. My fingertips should get some good calluses from making the notches in the metal for the stands. I think a misting bottle of water near the saw is a god idea to try. Also, the saw does not have a speed control, mostly I just work the metal slowly.

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 20:32
OK, drum roll please............

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 20:36
All the pieces are here, and I have made a demo shot or two. Here it is:



http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0301.JPG


The windscreen is a beauty:

http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0310.JPG


And the entire thing fits in the little box:

http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0307.JPG

And because I think the windscreen material is cool, here is another shot:

http://www.hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0305.JPG

Major Slacker
2005-02-03, 20:39
Woohoo! :)

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 20:41
And the windscreen material is sturdy, yet only weighs 0.5 ounces. If you don't trim the screen at all, the stove and screen are only 28 grams, or 1.0 ounces.

Lanthar
2005-02-03, 22:59
so, are you painting ti or is that it's natural color?

SGT Rock
2005-02-04, 00:24
Painting it. I grind off the extra little rough bits after cutting and it looks like crap afterwords. For my own personal use it wouldn't matter, but aesthetic quality seems to matter when someone wants to buy something.

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-04, 00:26
Top,
If you're not heating the blade enough to smoke a little oil on the blade, then all my above posts aren't going to buy you much 'cause you're not burning the blade, and Ti is just going to be an expensive material to work with.
Squirting a bead of coolant on the sheet along the path you are cutting may be enough to give you all the blade life you're going to get.
Is there such a thing as an abrasive coated blade available for your particular saw? Diamond wire comes to mind, as that's what my wife uses to cut bone samples in her histology business. Her band saw blades are $75 each so don't go overboard experimenting down that path. I'm thinking Al-Ox or similar.
Just so YOU know: I know OF Ti, I just don't know much ABOUT it.
MutinousDoug

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-04, 00:41
And Top,
The very next thing you should do, before you buy some more Ti, is study the layout of your cuts to minimize material waste and minimize tool (blade) path. think Jigsaw Puzzle.
Sawing is no way to produce a commercial product.
I think you need a laser or EDM machine, at least :rolleyes: Outsource your cutting.
What thickness is the stock?

SGT Rock
2005-02-04, 16:07
Mutinousdoug,

I think you are right.I'mnot burning the blade, Ti is just making it go dull faster. I'll check around for another blade type, but I sort of doubt I'll find anythink fancy for my cheap level band saw.

On the second post, I actually did this, but found that my current method for now will have to be the way to go. I actually have very little scrap left over, and it is fairly small. I could probably get more TiPod pieces from one sheet if I could use one of those high speed water cutters or something. Maybe a plasma cutter could cut Ti?

My Ti grade is, 016" sheet from www.thru-hiker.com (http://www.thru-hiker.com/materialsStore.asp?subcat=28-bottom&iLevel=2&txtCatName=2). I promise to make a diagram of one leg and post it so any of you stove tinerers can get some ti and make your own. The next level for me is to order a large supply of the Ti from a metal supply company and proabably make the Ti available here as well, since selling uncut stuff from me is a lot more cost effective than trying to spend the time cutting the stuff.

SGT Rock
2005-02-04, 16:08
Oh, and I have got a better color that will be the official Ion color - Blue. Red and unpainted metal will be optional colors.

blackdog
2005-02-04, 16:27
I have got a better color that will be the official Ion color - Blue

The Smart-1 ion engine now approaching the moon is gold-coloured with a blue "flame", so blue with the ion stove's yellow flame is a thing of beauty.

The blue colour is very visible out in the field too. More so than red or grey.

SGT Rock
2005-02-04, 16:46
I love the rendering blackdog. I have started building a website for the stove on a back page here, most of the content is a placeholder coppied from hikinghq, but that picture sort of gave the theme to the entire look. If you want to see it, http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/

Lanthar
2005-02-04, 18:35
I love the rendering blackdog. I have started building a website for the stove on a back page here, most of the content is a placeholder coppied from hikinghq, but that picture sort of gave the theme to the entire look. If you want to see it, http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/

Looks good. But, can you use something other that M$ office components when you finish the site?



Missing: Microsoft Office Web Components

This page requires the Microsoft Office Web Components.

Click here to install Microsoft Office Web Components..

This page also requires Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.01 (SP-1) or higher.

Click here to install the latest Internet Explorer.

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-04, 18:37
OK Top,
Since the people reading this thread apparently have more time on their hands than brains, you could continue to lighten your pot stand legs by poking holes in them judiciously, maybe just on the uprights not in the flame path. A PITA with your Ti, but I'm thinking of making one out of coffee can tin. Actually, this appears to be a peanut can.
A word to the wise: don't try to drill sheet metal. Get some kind of punch or one of those step drilll thingies. Sheetmetal becomes a little rotary mower blade when the drill pierces the sheet and it comes out of the clamp (in my case:fingers). Save yourself a trip to the infirmary and an incident report. Really...

blackdog
2005-02-04, 18:38
It's nice to know that at least some of my crazy ideas are useful. :) Now if I only could get that pacific proa out of my head and into my garage...

The site is really nice. I have one suggestion, though. Could you please redo the menu with Cascading Style Sheets instead?

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/

Good luck with the new business venture, Sarge! I hope it grows the way gossamergear does, keeping the door open for DIYers too. If the manufacture ever becomes too much for you, then just remember how moonbow gets things done. You have a lot of people here that wouldn't mind helping you out. Remember that.

SGT Rock
2005-02-04, 18:39
I was worried about that. I'll just turn the graph it into a picture, too easy.

Another issue has just arose. I slightly modified the Ion production stoves to make them look better, now they are not performing as advertised. I'm in the process of seeing what needs fixed, so be prepared for some design changes to the burner on the final product. What I have found is sort of like the full sized soda can version, a little change in one place can really alter performance.

Lanthar
2005-02-04, 18:43
OK Top,
Since the people reading this thread apparently have more time on their hands than brains, you could continue to lighten your pot stand legs by poking holes in them judiciously, maybe just on the uprights not in the flame path. A PITA with your Ti, but I'm thinking of making one out of coffee can tin. Actually, this appears to be a peanut can.
A word to the wise: don't try to drill sheet metal. Get some kind of punch or one of those step drilll thingies. Sheetmetal becomes a little rotary mower blade when the drill pierces the sheet and it comes out of the clamp (in my case:fingers). Save yourself a trip to the infirmary and an incident report. Really...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oops... sorry... hopefully you can laugh about it now...

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-04, 19:26
Top,
Do a quick Google on: "titanium sawing"
There are some good sites there with recommendations on working Ti.
Slow speed and fast feed with coolant are recommended.
Look at:
superalloys.com/machining_titanium.htm
or:
timet.com/fab-p14.htm

And Lanthar:
I learned that little nugget some years ago. It just stuck with me, you know? The scar across the end pad of my middle finger probably has something to do with it. The cut and stitches weren't as painful as the explaination of how they got there.
Glad you enjoyed it.

NoGroundToGive
2005-02-04, 19:57
"Rock"

Just signed up and wanted to tell you the new stove looks great !!! See you next week!

SGT Rock
2005-02-04, 22:57
NoGroundToGive,

Welcome to the site. For the rest of y'all this is one of the guys I work with. He is a Combat Engineer. He and I have been playing with the Ion at work for the last few days.

SGT Rock
2005-02-06, 13:01
I used my Ion Stove this weekend on an overnight trip with temps down into the 20s. The stove worked like a champ evey time. Lowest temptested at during use was about 32F, and It did just fine. I fired up the stove with slightly over a pint of very cold water and 15ml of alcohol, then tore down my shelter and packed up. By the time I was ready to eat my meal was ready for me.

Hog On Ice
2005-02-06, 19:51
wrt to drilling Ti - I have heard that its not too bad if you drill it under water - unfortunately I have never worked Ti so I can't say but it sounds like a good idea ... and of course clamp that piece down before drilling :dancing2:

J.D.
2005-02-14, 15:58
Received this large U.S. Mail Priority box today - approx. 12" X 14" X 3"

At first, I thought that someone had forgotten to put anything in there! But, there was this cute little pyramid-shaped box way down in a corner....!

I've never done the Gear-Testing-Thing; but, love to read about the tests and have benefited from a lot of them. Don't you just love the way many of the "Initial Reports" read sometimes...<g>...?

Soooo... (With tongue in cheek) *MY* initial impressions were that it is just too darned tiny to be of any use and when my SkyDog sniffed it, it flew off the table 'cause it weighs nothing. And, that weight -<nothing>- has been verified on my dial-type hanging grocery store produce scale that was last Certified in 1952.

The pyramid-shaped box has a bar graphic comparison on the reverse that needs attention. The "7 Day Weight Comparisons of Systems" attempts to compare 4 different stoves; but, the ink/printing doesn't work on that box and you cannot tell one from the other. Suggesting: cross-hatching perhaps?

The instructions are very complete. The Disclaimer is very interesting and thorough. Of great interest:

"Backpacking involves serious dangers such as (but not limited to)... death, injury... etc. etc. *AND EMOTIONAL TRAUMA*

WHEW....!!! Thanks to the excellent Disclaimer, I no longer feel like such a wimp when I begin crying half way up that long steep hill....<g>...

And, it's a HOT RED color!

Looks Great, Sir! Will be trying it tomorrow night south of Harpers Ferry!

Happy Trails,

J.D.

Lanthar
2005-02-14, 17:38
Mine just showed up today as well... not much heavier than the tyvek envelope it showed up in... noticed the same thing about the graphic. It needs a little work, maybe do one with gray hashmarks one way, one with grey the other way one with tiny dots and one white...

Oh, mine was pretty beat up, or I should say the packaging was beat up, the stove and stand were in great shape. Even though the package was wrapped well, USPS still managed to beat it up. for asthetics you might look for a heavier carboard box to slip the package into before going in the envelope. Though, like I mentioned, the stove and such were in no way harmed. And, it gives me another evelope for my tyvek collection. :D

Hey, Rock, is the "aesthetic" change you made that you had to redo the holes a little the putting the top on the outside rather inside than the bottom? Just curious.

BTW - once you finish figuing out the new one with the aluminum tin, count me in. Now to get a fuel bottle...

dixicritter
2005-02-14, 18:00
Mine just showed up today as well...

Oh, mine was pretty beat up, or I should say the packaging was beat up, the stove and stand were in great shape. Even though the package was wrapped well, USPS still managed to beat it up.

:o
Ok before he gets a chance to get in here and say he told me so.... :girl:

The envelope was MY idea because those USPS boxes are so darned big. Will have to come up with another idea now for shipping.

Enjoy!

:creep:

SGT Rock
2005-02-14, 19:53
Mine just showed up today as well... not much heavier than the tyvek envelope it showed up in... noticed the same thing about the graphic. It needs a little work, maybe do one with gray hashmarks one way, one with grey the other way one with tiny dots and one white...

Fixed on the newer labels



Oh, mine was pretty beat up, or I should say the packaging was beat up, the stove and stand were in great shape. Even though the package was wrapped well, USPS still managed to beat it up. for asthetics you might look for a heavier carboard box to slip the package into before going in the envelope. Though, like I mentioned, the stove and such were in no way harmed. And, it gives me another evelope for my tyvek collection. :D

No kidding, Hmmmm. Should I say "I told you" to the office manager. :P




Hey, Rock, is the "aesthetic" change you made that you had to redo the holes a little the putting the top on the outside rather inside than the bottom? Just curious.

Yes, it was an aesthetic change that also ended up changing the stove performance and led to more holes and a larger diameter filler/priming hole.



BTW - once you finish figuing out the new one with the aluminum tin, count me in. Now to get a fuel bottle...

I got me one of those platypus like collapsible bottles for fuel. I'll probably go ahead and send you a new burner when I get home. I'm working on some minor changes to the burner top to make the finish a little better.

J.D.
2005-02-14, 21:10
Of course, I couldn't wait until tomorrow on the trail. So, I tested the Ion on a cookie sheet on the kitchen stove top.

Using the microwave digital timer and a digital thermometer, I had my .9 liter Ti Evernew pot FULL of water at a rolling boil in 8 mins. 17 secs. at 72.3 F ambient.

There was no wind during the testing other than a certain amount of flatulence from SkyDog. She always gets *excited* when the gear comes out!

The wind screen WAS used. Took more time to boil withOUT the windscreen, of course. Matter of fact, I ran out of fuel before it would boil.

Not sure about the amount of fuel that I used. Just a "squirt" - maybe half full...?

Did not test it to the "Spec Sheet" which sez 10 mins to boil a pint. Hmmm... does it really take longer to boil half as much...<g>....

Kewl...! It works....! Was there ever any doubt...<g>...?

A *real* test tomorrow (Tuesday)! Going for 10 miles on the "Roller Coaster" starting at Bears Den. No rain and 60 F forecasted...! Night temp will only be 41 F and then rain on Wednesday.

NEXT: Get this %#@#%& 3.5 pound tent out of my pack!

Happy Trails,

J.D.

SGT Rock
2005-02-14, 21:17
Did not test it to the "Spec Sheet" which sez 10 mins to boil a pint. Hmmm... does it really take longer to boil half as much...<g>....


I shot for conservative claims in the boil time. I regularly hit boil in about 7 minutes with mine.

Lanthar
2005-02-15, 11:00
I got me one of those platypus like collapsible bottles for fuel. I'll probably go ahead and send you a new burner when I get home. I'm working on some minor changes to the burner top to make the finish a little better.

The lil' nipper? Were you able to find any other source for spouts than BPL. Or are you even using a spout?

SGT Rock
2005-02-15, 20:44
It islike that, just not made by Platapus. I don't know exactly who makes it. The bottle is slightly different shaped and it has a local gear store's logo on it.

J.D.
2005-02-16, 23:58
Just wanted to let everyone know that the Ion worked just fine "In The Wild".

Temp about 48 F on the AT last night and boiled a full pot (.9 liter Ti Evernew) in.... I don't carry a watch.... Guessing less than 10 minutes. There was some wind too!

This AM it was ~ 38 F and same deal.

THE BEST PART.....!!! Watched a father & son team come in at dark with TONS of gear and 10" (Maybe 12"...!) high propane stoves. Yes, they EACH carried one...?!?!?! AND, they had folding home made BALSA WOOD WIND SCREENS that were 12" h and 14" w when flat.....!!! They just boiled water too!

So, I'm sitting there with this little HOT RED can, munching away, feeding myself and SkyDog when they asked what was in it - assuming some kind of treat for SkyDog...<g>....

Happ Trails,

J.D.

J.D.
2005-02-17, 19:51
You can't see the ION stove; but, it's there within the copper colored wind screen under the pot. Note coffee press, snake bite medicine flask, and Little Debbie Coffee Cake in hand. What a GREAT breakfast!



Happy Trails,

J.D.

J.D.
2005-02-17, 19:53
Sorry...

Can't seem to upload that pic.

J.D.