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Iceman
2005-02-02, 03:02
Now for the politically incorrect topic of trailside weaponry. (And yes I did ask Sarge if this was poo-poo subject matter...)

Nothing makes me smile more than the look I get from some veggie head when they see my wife and I packing heat on the trail. Having a weapon on my hip while in the backcountry seems very natural. A sidearm can be used for a vairety of uses from the obvious self defense, to picking up a bit of protein along the trail, to signalling rescuers. With the outlawing of hound hunting for cougar and blackbear in my home state of Washington, I personally have noticed a huge increase of cougar in the areas I like to hunt, hike and play. I do not consider bear a problem unless you get between mama' and her babies, but cougar are a different kind of animal. I have had cougar within feet of my sleeping family. They are nearby each time we snowhsoe. I have even been stalked at sunup by a bobcat. (not real scary but very interesting...) Friends of ours had to "cap" a bear which was coming into their cabin thru the window. The broom stick wasn't working. My wife enjoys having a weapon in her posession while I sidetrek to the stream or lake to fish... The point is, there are many reasons to pack. The question is what is your choice?

We prefer wheel guns. Revolvers. Her's, a very nice airweight LadySmith 38cal. (And yes she knows how to use it.) I prefer a 357.mag/six inch/heavy frame. We have autos, but you can stand on my revolver, it is stainless, won't rust and will knock a tree down if you want. Never ever ever failed me, and I can dot the eye's with it. (Besides it looks really cool on my hip.)

Bear spray cannot "reach out and touch" a cougar that is cornering your eight year old, besides, "spray them and spray you." I know from experience.(try handcuffing a bad guy when everyone in the "group hug" has just been sprayed.) Trying to hit your target with oleoresincapiscum (pepper spray) is not as easy as you may think. Most people who try usually spray themselves or no one at all. Most of these products have a very ineffective short range. Are you really going to wait until trougble gets that close?

The sad truth is, if you confront trouble, be it animal or man, you may need a sidearm. Do you prefer accuracy, reliability, capacity, weight, or power?

Oh yeeaaahh.

Iceman

Sgathak
2005-02-02, 09:30
Do you prefer accuracy, reliability, capacity, weight, or power?

Whats the critter?

Man? CZ75 P01 (9mm)... on the weak side of the power curve Ill also carry a KelTec P3AT (.380) - No interest in a caliber debate. 2 in the belly and 1 in the head equals one ex-criminal, extra dead. I know one guy who advocates carrying a Serbu Super Shorty (6.5 inch bbl'd 12g) AOW shotgun.... seems like overkill to me, but, to each his own........ I guess.

Preferance (in order) = Reliability, accuracy, capacity

4 legged up to large rabbit sized (survival capable to deer sized)? Ruger 22/45 w/6in PacLite Receiver and Barsik RedDot scope....currently being built... very useful for "self supported rambles" in the Kifaru tradition.

Preferance (in order) = Weight, accuracy.

4 legged from large rabbit to elk sized? Mosin Nagant M-44 w/ scope, custom turn down bolt, and ATI Stock (7.62x54R) or Savage 11F (.308)

Preferance (in order) = Accuracy, weight.

Elk size and up (to include large predators like Bear)? 300 Win Mag or larger rifle... Savage 111F w/ custom .35 Whelen barrel currently being built.

Preferance (in order) = Power, accuracy, weight.

SGT Rock
2005-02-02, 10:46
It sort of depend on what I thought I might be up against. In the Alaskan Back-country maybe a sawed down double barrel 10 gauge for "Bear Spray" LOL. Just kidding...

I think dependability and weight are important. Something like one of those ultralight revolvers made from corrosion resistant metal like Ti. You don't really need high capacity magazines or large calibers, my guess is that if something comes for you and you either pop it once or twice, or at least double tap in its direction, then it will seek the path of least resistance and go after something else without a "Bang stick". As for caliber, the .38 Special is a good all around round for most close in sort of stuff unless you are talking large bears and maybe cougars.

My only experience with shooting at aggressive beasts was Iraqi junkyard dogs, and one bang of a 9mm sent them in the other direction. I do remember that even with a 9mm at close range on even some medium sized dogs it would take 2-3 hits to bring them down unless your first shot hit a vital spot. One dog I remember in particular took 7 shots to bring it down including one hit from an M16A2. I think that part of the problem would be the ball ammo designed to penetrate body armor, at that range it would most likely not expand to do anything to the animal. So to add to my recommendation I would add a hollow point or something similar for bullet type.

jimtanker
2005-02-02, 11:47
I know its kind of whimpy and/but since I'm into light weight backpacking I carry a Colt Mustang Pocketlite. Dont know what it would do against a bear but having a .380 is better than going without. And real easy to conceal too.

Sgathak
2005-02-02, 18:37
Ammo choice makes a HUGE difference in the rounds effectiveness. Penetration is the number 1 question... how deep?

When loaded with 9mm, Ive got it to keep people off me (weve had more than one hiker assaulted at the local trailheads) I like my chambered rnd to be a CCI 9mm shotshell (itll extract fine, it just wont load like I like) That throws out 10 balls of small shot... little pentration, lots of superficial damage. Lots of blood. Looks real scary and hurts alot. Wont kill anything. Idea is pychological damage. Id rather NOT kill someone for being stupid. If absolutly need be, I then follow up with Remington Golden Sabers. They open at the right point in human physiology to do the most damage.... In a bear, they wouldnt penetrate deep enough to do anything but make her mad. Real mad. Maybe blow a trauma channel through her fat layer, but its not hitting anything vital. Thats why if bear are a threat, I want a rifle.... However, as I mentioned in another thread, guns dont help much if you dont use them right. Alaska has encountered the problem of people throwing loaded rifles at the bears rather than shooting them. Bear Spray has its place if you think for even a minute that you might not be cool under pressure.

If you want to shoot 38, get a pistol with enough room to load 357. Itll then fire both, and youll have more utility. The Airlights are nice if revolvers are your thing.

jimtanker
2005-02-02, 18:58
Used to carry my Colt .45 compact in my "heavy" days.

If I get into a situation that my .380 cant get me out of then I deserve it.

What do you mean you would rather not kill someone for being stupid? Thats the best reason I can think of. One of my favorite bumperstickers says, "Stupidity should be painfull!"

Sgathak
2005-02-02, 19:12
What do you mean you would rather not kill someone for being stupid? Thats the best reason I can think of.

Well... for all my talk of guns and hunting, I have some pretty extensive Buddhist training. I remain more pantheistic in my views of life and death, but Id rather not kill unless theres no other option.

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-02, 20:54
Since Iceman has limited the discussion to carrying for protection, the criteria can be loaded (at least) two ways:
First: How much power is required to nullify the threat? and lets say power can be tweaked by bullet design and caliber as well as bullet wt/velocity.
Second: What is the threat level? Why arm yourself against a Cape Buffalo in Utah, say?
If I think there are bears to be concerned about, a rifle or shotgun is of course a better deterent than about any handgun. In the 1970's it wasn't uncommon to see flyfishers in Alaska carry a Marine type pistolgrip pump 12 ga slung on their backs. And this was just around Ft Richardson/Elmondorf AFB (Anchorage). My dad was almost trampled by a cow Moose when he fired a warning shot over her head with his 9mm.
I used to carry a 6.5" .41 cal Blackhawk backpacking and hunting but in 23 years in Colorado I saw a bear maybe 2-3 times and was stalked by a cougar once (that's when I got motivated to carry). So, over the years I backed off to a S&W model 19 or a model 66 (.357) with 180gr solid silouette bullets or 158 gr hollow points and a couple of shotshells for squirrels, grouse or rabbits. The trouble is, when you let loose a .38 cal even with these shotshells, they echo up and down the canyons too much for the big game to tolerate, so I ended up buying and carrying a Ruger Bearcat .22 revolver with a 5.5" barrel The sights are fixed but it shoots POA and groups about 3/4" at 20 yds. That's what I carry (when I carry) most of the time. Of course, during the big game seasons that is only a backup for my muzzleloader or bow. When I'm backpacking, I admit to being creeped out once or twice by bear sign in an area (like when I was in Algonquin park last September, totally unarmed) when I'm carrying that .22. but really, how much iron do you want to carry to dispel how much of a threat?
Weight? Unfortunatly, it seems with handguns generally that weight=accuracy. I have a Colt pocketlite Mustang that weighs 15 oz loaded, It's compact and easy to carry but it's not accurate enough for camp meat and packs only 25% more muzzle energy than a .22 (~200ft/lbs vs 120-150 ft/lbs IIRC) so I carry the Ruger Bearcat at 24 oz loaded. (the loaded Model 66 weighs about 40 oz)
Reliability in a name brand handgun is really not much of an issue. Any gun that's not a POS that you are familiar with should function when you need it.
Capacity? I wouldn't carry a derringer or a TC Contender (a single shot pistol chambered in any number of RIFLE calibers), but any revolver, even a 5 shot should be plenty for one encounter (just save one for yourself) :bawling:
So, concluding, criteria in order are IMHO: reliability, weight, accuracy, power and last, capacity.
If I were hiking on the Yukon river or Kodiak island, I'd swap wt and pwr priorities.
Just rambling, MutinousDoug

Whitesmoke
2005-02-03, 12:12
I carry a Springfield XD-40 for everyday carry (.40 S&W) with my CCW.

While in the woods I usually carry a Ruger Vaquero .45 colt loaded up with a 250 gr RNFP bullet and the power of a 44 mag.

That should be pretty effective on bear.....or whatever else.

SGT Rock
2005-02-03, 12:33
I like my chambered rnd to be a CCI 9mm shotshell (itll extract fine, it just wont load like I like) That throws out 10 balls of small shot... little pentration, lots of superficial damage. Lots of blood. Looks real scary and hurts alot. Wont kill anything. Idea is pychological damage. Id rather NOT kill someone for being stupid. If absolutly need be, I then follow up with Remington Golden Sabers.

I like that idea, the logic suits my thoughts on a defense weapon.

Iceman
2005-02-04, 02:14
My Smith 686 is a bit "much" for the occasional furry snack along the trail, so I have tried those CCI Shotshells, but the rifling puts enough spin into the shot that it throws a grenade size pattern. I have scared a couple of grouse really bad though. Patterened it against a large sheet of paper, and decided I was wasting my time with the birdshot.

I have actually toyed with the idea of milling a couple of caliber reducers for my pistol so I can shoot an occasional 22 round from the 357. Couldn't be much less accurate than the birdshot....

I have located caliber reducers for many rifle combinations, but none for pistol. If anyone has seen this product available, I am beggin'... Otherwise it is to the metal mill.....Can't be to hard to make, I am sure the 22. will rattle a bit down the barrel, but I am talking for close in work, the occasional grouse or bunny at 20 feet. Any thoughts?

Sgathak
2005-02-04, 09:35
What is your barrel length like? What range were you shooting at? Most self defense (the time Ive got shot loaded) situations happen at ranges of under 10 feet. I dont fire off the shot too much since I happen to LIKE a rifled bore, but for patterning I wasnt getting spreads any larger than 3in at 12ft (4yards).

Besides... like I said, Golden Sabers are only a trigger pull away....

As for caliber reducers, I know of ONE, made for ONE pistol, in LIMITED run, and VERY expensive... but if you REALLY want to shoot .22LR out of a Makarov, let me know.

john pickett
2005-02-04, 10:11
Iceman,
Have you thought of shooting 38 spec wadcutters? Low recoil and report, great accuracy to at least 25 yards (they're for 25 yard target shooting after all). Only downside. they're about as heavy as 357's.
Regards,
John Pickett

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-04, 11:05
Iceman,
Have you thought out how to convert your centerfire firing pin to rimfire? I think that's where your challenge is going to come from.
I've patterned those shotshells too and although I've shot a few grouse with them, they're only effective to maybe about 10 ft. I think their supposed to be for shooting snakes at boot toe distance.
I think John Pickett's suggestion of wadcutters has some merit. They might be hard to find, unless you have a public shooting range that sells reloads. I see "Cheaper than Dirt" sells them.

Iceman
2005-02-04, 12:15
6 inch barrell, on the 357. My goal would be to leave the first five rounds with my tunnel points, and #6 for the 22cal/bird wacker.

We shoot a couple of snakes each year while bird and deer hunting in the Eastern half of our state, and usually use whatever we have in hand at the time; pistol, shotgun or rifle. (even a couple with rocks and sticks.) A bit of advice on rattlesnakes; big ones do taste like chicken, with a bit of butter and a little garlic yummy! But don't try the skinny smaller variety, they taste like schitt.

Are we sure the rimfires won't fire off with a hit to the center? I've noticed my 22 rifle, and a few pistols strike the rimfire round, along the edge and very near the center of the charge. I was hoping to find that the 357 hit the 22 cal rimfire with a large enough smack to discharge the round. We will see...

Thanks

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-04, 14:09
Iceman,
I NEVER say never, but during manufacture, the priming compound in a rimfire is placed as a liquid (a slurry, actually) into the case and spun into the fold made by the rim. So theoretically, the forward side of the rim supported by the chamber mouth of the gun acts as an anvil against the firing pin. If your 686 hits the end of the rimfire cartridge with enough force to pinch the priming compound, the round should fire. I'm just doubtful there is enough force or penetration to do that reliably.
OTOH, I think I remember being wrong once before, so I'll take my lumps if your smoothbore project works out for you. Good luck, and keep us posted.
Hey, and P.S. I think Gun Parts, Inc (Successor to Numrich Arms) sells scrap .22 barrels that you might want to look into. They are dirt cheap and 10-16" long that you could cut to length, turn the OD and chamber for a little snubby barrel.

Iceman
2005-02-04, 19:15
Ol' mutinous one
Oooooo, you know some cool schtick! I am glad to have guys like you on my side. (You are on my side aren't you?) Maybe offset the bore in the reducer to place the firing pin in contact with the rim of the 22 cal round? Index the reducer, so you always load it with the correct alignment? (sort of sounds like an accident waiting to happen, doesn't it. Thats why I like it so much! The offset wouldn't have to be too much, and the 22 cal projectile would sort of "find" it's way out anyhow. Might make a really cool whistling noise to boot! I will surely think about this for a bit before the milling proceeds.Maybe actually make a few drawings for posterity. Thanks for the info.

Iceman
2005-02-04, 19:29
Iceman,
Have you thought of shooting 38 spec wadcutters? Low recoil and report, great accuracy to at least 25 yards (they're for 25 yard target shooting after all). Only downside. they're about as heavy as 357's.
Regards,
John Pickett
Sorry John missed this one, I have a bag of wad cutters that I reload for target shooting. Nice round, a bit dirty in the barrel, but very accurate up close. I have not popped game with the wadcutter, but maybe I should carry a couple for this purpose? The suped up rounds we all fancy for self defense are very overkill, for swatting down dinner, unless you like burger... Maybe your idea is a good one, load up a few powder puff rounds for the occasional grouse or bunny... I will research a few formulas using the powder I already have, and come up with a soft load. I already load a mild round for my wife. Her airweight can really bite your hand if you shoot heavy and hot loads in it.

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-04, 19:45
Iceman,
Path of least resistance: go with the wadcutters. If you're reloading and you're having problems with leading (which you shouldn't at 700-800 fps), find some Lee Liquid Alox and re-lube your wadcutters. The stuff most bullet makers put in the lube grooves of their lead bullets is like candle wax (if they use any at all).

Redleg
2005-02-04, 23:22
I have a picture of my friends hike carry,( But I do not know how to post it ) a .357 smith scandium with a 3 inch, and 6 spare at 13.09 oz. his load is a 158 gr lasercast "Keith" over enough 2400 to make 1368fps. The K frame smith groups sub one inch(in his hands) at 25 yrds. I got his piece in the swap match and had to shoot a 10 round bull. I stayed inside the 4 ring but couldn't feel my hand afterwards. My carry is a 16 oz 1 7/8 inch Tauras Ti. loading .452 colt. I use 300 gr. Lasercast that I reswage into Kieth hammerheads. BUT only at 1048 fps using VV340. Max effective range is about 35 ft.(pie plate) And from experiance it drops a 400lb black bear in his tracks. Shot placement (location, location, location), The bullet overpenetrated, broke the skull, sholder, and exeted over the hip. Shooting down from a tree.
Whatever you carry, Practice. You need to know what it's going to do. And when things get quick and spooky, you do not want to have to think about AnyThing but sight and triger.
jaf

SGT Rock
2005-02-04, 23:45
Something like this:

http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/userimages/163060_large.jpg

http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=294736&item=831391

Redleg
2005-02-05, 09:26
"Flashbang As Bear Deterent? " thread, has some more takes on the subject.
jaf

redneck
2005-02-05, 16:40
Aww...that's cute.

I'm just kiddin'. I like my little gun, a Sig Sauer P228 9mm.

http://remtek.com/arms/sig/model/228/228.gif

Not too heavy, small enough to conceal, but just big enough for a proper fit in my hands. I tried to go smaller, but I don't like the way most compacts feel.

Sgathak
2005-02-05, 17:26
Ladies, ladies, ladies

Why not sep up to the plate with a REAL handgun?!?!?!?!

http://www.custom-glock.com/shotshow05/shotshow05-Images/56.jpg

LMFAO

Ok, in all seriousness, CZ makes some great pistols, but this ones a bit over the top

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-05, 18:22
Sgathak,
I'd like to see the video of someone drawing that from concealment or use it on an IPSC course.
Heck, I'd enjoy watching anyone sharpening a #2 pencil with it!
Hah!

Sgathak
2005-02-05, 18:27
One theory is that CZ came up with this to reduce muzzle flip... CZUB hasnt said one word TMK on why they did that insane thing.

Its the ONLY valid explanation I can come up with, this thing is wicked.

Wickedly stupid, wickedly ineffective as a weapon, and wickedly heavy. Plus, youve already got a bayonet for the M16/M4, a tactical folder, maybe a fixed blade, and now a pistol bayonet?!?!?!?!?!

Iceman
2005-02-05, 19:18
Sgathak, I get the point. And, you can clean what you catch with it.

Sgathak
2005-02-05, 19:23
Well, it does bring a new demention to the old pistol whip

Lanthar
2005-02-06, 10:40
Well, it does bring a new demention to the old pistol whip

damn skippy!

Fox
2005-02-17, 22:33
My husband and I will soon be carrying matching Walther .22 pistols. Sure they're not killers, but they'll certainly do damage and be scary. I grew up in Wisconsin on my Dad's 80 acres, and as a young'n (well, ok, 12-13) and being the petite lady I am, I got very used to wearing his pistol (a scaled-down .22 version of the pistol he had as an MP) in the woods as well as carrying my squirrel stalker (my .22 rifle)... My husband was raised by hippies in Oregon, thus never really got to handle a rifle outside of Boyscouts (still got that elusive riflery badge, though) and enjoys having a wife who can talk hunting and shooting with the guys. =)

Pistol- .22 Walther P22 in OD green/black
Rifle- Remington .22LR pump action.

Sgathak
2005-02-18, 03:20
Classic!!!!!!

You must read this if you either A) enjoy firearms, or B) hate idiots at eBay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7135441836&fromMakeTrack=true

Iceman
2005-02-18, 03:48
Gotta love the matching Walthers. No complaints here!

Iceman
2005-02-18, 04:02
Classic!!!!!!

You must read this if you either A) enjoy firearms, or B) hate idiots at eBay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7135441836&fromMakeTrack=true

So, like do those ammunition thingys fly thru the air and kill thingys at the other end, they seem sort of scary and dangerous. I hope no one gets hurt.

Sgathak
2005-02-28, 04:28
Could it be? the Dept of Justice actually coming out to SUPPORT the 2nd amendment?

http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm#2a

Mutinousdoug
2005-02-28, 13:27
All seems to depend on who the Atty Gen and PotUS is. Doesn't it?
Looks like we won this round anyway.

Fox
2005-02-28, 18:10
Gun control is a pretty tricky thing to write laws about...
My thing is that while I think collectors should be able to own whatever sort of gun they want, as collectors, I don't think it would be too much of a hassle for them to procure a license of some sort...

That and if you have to have a license to drive a car, I think there should be some sort of proficiency/safety test to own a gun... I'm sick of people buying guns or owning them 'for self defense' and not knowing how to use them safely, just to store it loaded and complain/blame the gun industry when their kids whip out daddy's pistol and shoot someone (or themselves) True a test can't measure common sense, but at least they couldn't try to directly blame the firearm industry for whatever they (in their incompetance) did, or what they (in ther negligence) allowed to happen...

Sorry, this turned into a rant, but I think you can see where I'm going. I don't want to discourage anyone from owning firearms... they're fun, and a great hobby, but I want some laws to go up to protect the rights of the manufacturers and the users so a few bad apples don't spoil the batch.

Any thoughts on this?

oh, and anyone know where I can get a bumper sticker that says "gun control is using both hands"? I've always gotten a kick out of 'em...

Hog On Ice
2005-02-28, 20:20
oh, and anyone know where I can get a bumper sticker that says "gun control is using both hands"? I've always gotten a kick out of 'em...


bumper sticker (http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=zbs215)

SGT Rock
2005-02-28, 20:32
That and if you have to have a license to drive a car, I think there should be some sort of proficiency/safety test to own a gun... I'm sick of people buying guns or owning them 'for self defense' and not knowing how to use them safely, just to store it loaded and complain/blame the gun industry when their kids whip out daddy's pistol and shoot someone (or themselves) True a test can't measure common sense, but at least they couldn't try to directly blame the firearm industry for whatever they (in their incompetance) did, or what they (in ther negligence) allowed to happen...

Sorry, this turned into a rant, but I think you can see where I'm going. I don't want to discourage anyone from owning firearms... they're fun, and a great hobby, but I want some laws to go up to protect the rights of the manufacturers and the users so a few bad apples don't spoil the batch.


Texas had a great system when I last lived there to get a concealed gun license that required training on self defense laws, qualification, and safety training. Cost a good bit, but as far as I know it works. I just heard recently about that recent incident in Tyler where a couple of armed guys chased off a shooter that was firing near town hall. Back in 1992 or 1993 they had a similar thing happen (before the carry law) near Ft Hood and there were people looking for a gun to stop the killer before the police could get there but couldn't find one.

Mutinousdoug
2005-03-01, 12:30
Fox;
I object to licensing requirements for firearms ownership. Comparing it to drivers licensing is specious. You have no constitututional right to drive, but you have a right to own and carry a firearm ( if you believe the opinions of the flunkies in the current DOJ hold water).
That said, it would be nice if firearms owners would take responsibility for their actions by learning safe practices and law regarding legal use of deadly force.
I decided to do the drill to obtain a Colorado CCW permit last year and must say I was very disappointed that the required training omitted ANY mention of use of deadly force. The entire course centered on basic handgun handling and marksmanship. When I tried to lead the instructor into a discussion of legal use, he refused and said it was outside the legislations requirement for training, but that information was available in another course not required for CCW applicants if I had the interest and money in hand.
Personally, I could care less if a permit holder shoots his own foot off, I just don't want to face a holder who thinks it's appropriate to pull a gun on me because I didn't quite park my SUV between the lines in the lot. (I did, however, lean a little in your direction after seeing some of the characters behavior during the live-fire portion of the class [one old guy insisted on wearing cowhide gloves to shoot his .380, and about half the class had trouble consistantly hitting a paper plate at 7 yds slowfire].)
Colorado has a reciprocity agreement with all bordering states (and others)except New Mexico so CCW holders can carry in any of those states (although requirements for declaring if you are stopped by a police officer vary with each state).
Information is available on the internet regarding legal use of deadly force for those who chose to enlighten themselves, although a class taught by an attorney versed in this type of case law would sure be informative. I'd like to see this kind of thing taught in high schools.

Rage in a Cage
2005-03-16, 02:11
For years I carried a Target Bulldog 44 mag. Last year I switched to a Beretta 92 FS 9mm. I have also been known to carry a Jennings 22 in a ankle holster for backup.
My next purchase will likely be a S&W 500 with the 8 3/8 inch barrel. I dont really need it but I would like to own one.

Iceman
2005-03-16, 03:20
Ooooo Daddy, thats a lot of handgun! Bigger in this case is better. :biggrin:

Rage in a Cage
2005-03-17, 03:41
I know I must have a sick and twisted mind, but a big gun just really seems do it for me. I bought a 458 rifle a couple years ago simple because it looks big and bad. I do tend to overkill when it comes to weapons. For deer hunting I still use my 338 even though a lesser caliber would be better in some respects. I just love the looks on other hunters faces when they see what I am carrying for hunting Whitetail and black bear. I have always said that even if the shot dont git em' the shockwave will. The rifle does tend to kill at both ends though.
Speaking of overkill, I used to hunt every season with the same group. Hunters are alot like fishermen when it comes down to telling stories. The guys were always telling stories about bear hunting and how aggressive a wounded bear would become after they had shot it. You know the old "I had to finish him off with my leatherman micra using only the screwdriver" type stories. One year I decided to give them something to talk about.
When I started dressing that morning preparing to leave camp for the day hunting I made sure that everyone was watching. Then I proceeded to arm myself. I put the 22 in my ankle holster. Then I put my 9mm and a borrowed 9mm in two under arm holsters. Next I put my 44 in the hip holster and put that on. Finally I grabbd up the 458 and started out of the tent. Before I cleared the door one of the guys asked what the heck I was doing. Of course I said, "I'm going bear hunting". He then asked what I needed all the guns for. I told him that I had heard all of them talk about how bad the bear could be when wounded so I was just taking some extra precautions. I told them my plan was to shoot the bear with the 458 first, using all the ammo. If this did not kill him then according to some of their talk in the past the bear may decide to charge. At this point I would unleash a barrage of 9mm bullets in the bears direction. If he continued to charge I would then propell a few 44 slugs in his direction. If he was still coming I would use the 22 at closer range for the final conflict. One of the guys spoke up and said, "then I reckon you're gonna take that knife you got on your side and finish em off". I looked square at the guy and said" Nope, At that point if the bear is still coming I am going to use the knife to carve myself up into little pieces so that I won't inconvience him any futher with having to chew me.
This story still has them laughing to this day. Of course I didn't really leave the tent with all those guns...............................I left the 22 behind. :biggrin:

Hypnocracy
2005-03-22, 15:29
After comming across the use of Shot Shells in Pistols, I came accross an informative page to share, LINK (http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/mwnotquite410.html). Unfortunately only has Patterns shown for .44 Mag and .45 ACP.

Sgt.Krohn
2005-05-19, 14:47
nothing special..
A Smith&Wesson Model 60 - stainless, 5-shot- 38special, Chief's Special
with jacketed hollow points.

http://i24.tinypic.com/23sx6aq.jpg

Icemanat95
2005-06-01, 12:53
Sig Sauer P220, .45 ACP. 200 grain Hornady XTP's loaded to about 1000 fps MV (handloads). Fairly hot load all in all.

I'm in the market for something smaller and lighter however.

dropkick
2005-06-18, 03:17
Had a thought for Iceman and his wish to fire 22's from a 357 - don't know if this would work but...
I used to make indoor plinking rounds by taking primed (no powder) .357 brass and sticking it into a pan of soft wax. I would wait for the wax to hardened and then break the brass free of the wax, thereby making low power cartridges with wax bullets. - I used to shoot them at a old dartboard from my easy chair (about 10 - 15 feet).
Anyway, my thought is what if you took the primed brass and put a small amount of powder in, some wadding, a 22 bullet, and then sealed it with some wax?
Don't know if this would seal good enough to get much power out of the round, also don't know what the bullet might do to the inside of your barrel, but if you try it I'll be very interested to hear your results.

Mutinousdoug
2005-06-19, 00:44
Mr DropKick,
I have to interject that your idea may have some downside. There is a very real posibility that the round you are proposing may eject the wax and leave the .22 projectile behind in the barrel of your revolver or automatic (as an obstruction to the next round fired).
A more practical round might be a .38 cal wadcutter loaded at 600-650 fps via a few grains of Bullseye or Winchester 231. I shoot a 700-750 fps load of Win 231 behind a 148 gr wadcutter bullet in a S&W M-66 to shoot 2" groups at 25 yds, which should be plenty accurate to take down rabbits or squirrel at field ranges. Or discourage uninvited guests.

Iceman
2005-06-19, 11:57
Thanks guy for digging up this old thread. Dropkick, I do have some similar magnum primer driven rounds, similar to what you are talking about, they are great for "no recoil" training with someone new to handguns...mine are an all plastic shell, re-useable plastic projectile, and very fun!

It did sound like the wadding/wax/round may be a little convoluted, but you never know....

I am still aching to lathe up an insert, to run an occasional 22lr or ultra down the barrel. I hope I dont put my eye out with it!

Thanks for the reminder, I need to schedule some time in the metal shop!

Icemanat95
2005-06-20, 09:09
Thanks guy for digging up this old thread. Dropkick, I do have some similar magnum primer driven rounds, similar to what you are talking about, they are great for "no recoil" training with someone new to handguns...mine are an all plastic shell, re-useable plastic projectile, and very fun!

It did sound like the wadding/wax/round may be a little convoluted, but you never know....

I am still aching to lathe up an insert, to run an occasional 22lr or ultra down the barrel. I hope I dont put my eye out with it!

Thanks for the reminder, I need to schedule some time in the metal shop!

Seems like you would be limited to a VERY short range on it. I can certainly see the possibility of milling cartridge sized inserts for the revolver chambers that are bored off center to ensure a firing pin hit on the rim of the .22 lr cartridge, but the barrel would offer no support for the bullet flying up it. Worst case, the bullet would ricochet its way up the bore getting deformed as it flew, then it would fly out of the muzzle at the angle of the last bounce...rather like a musket firing ill-fitted ball. Since the inserts would have to be bored off center to ensure an edge hit, the bullet would discharge off-center in the bore as well, The laws of fluid dynamics being what they are, this would virtually guarantee that the bullet would strike the inside of the barrel and ricochet out of the bore.

Inconsistency would be the order of the day, meaning your 22 plinker would be accurate at maybe 8 feet...maybe.

Better I think, to go a downloaded a standard bullet type such as a wadcutter. You'll have fewer problems with it.

Nightwalker
2005-06-24, 08:15
oh, and anyone know where I can get a bumper sticker that says "gun control is using both hands"? I've always gotten a kick out of 'em...
Gun control: I hit what I aim at!

:D

toyfj40
2005-06-24, 14:59
anyone know where to get a bumper sticker that says
"gun control is using both hands" ?


bumper sticker (http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=zbs215)

I saw some Sign or T-Shirt recently with:
-- FireArms: the Ultimate in "Feminine Protection"

A good WebSite to lookup the carry-rules in each state is
http://www.Packing.org/

--toyfj40

blackdog
2005-07-06, 11:45
A friend of a friend here in my home town has created a new rifle rest gizmo and he wanted some americans to have a look at it. ...so here goes:

http://www.zacrison.se/z-aim/upload/bilder/z-aim_alg2.jpg
The Z-aim (http://www.zacrison.com/z-aim/index.asp?id=26) gun rest.

Disclaimer: Just doing my friend a favour, not my friend's friend. No money falls my way on this. I'm not even a hunter...

SGT Rock
2005-07-08, 12:10
Interesting idea. Seems that you would loose some of the stability of a bi-pod with that but it might also make it easier to change your aim point with that sort of set up.

Iceman
2005-07-08, 12:59
My Bi-pod attaches in a manner which will not touch my shoulder or back while carried with a sling over my shoulder. This model looks like it may rub your back as you carry / sling the rifle...?

SGT Rock
2005-07-08, 13:30
Good point. I've got a Harris on my rifle and I can just have the legs fold to the front and not have them rub on my back when using a sling carry. And I can still use my sling without a modification of the stock, looks like that device would not work that way.

Sgt.Krohn
2005-07-08, 15:24
Blackdog
An interesting idea- but I'd want to try one before I could decide if it worked better than a bi-pod. I'm not a fan of bi-pods either. I don't like things bolted to the front of my rifles.

I'm old school- I grew up in the NRA junior marksmanship program and then later competed in the CMP-CivilianMarksmanshipProgram before I was in the infantry in Vietnam. I still prefer the three positions we were taught in the programs. If I can- I shoot off of my pack for prone but I would just as soon use a sitting position to shoot from. And being trained old school and in the military I'm a hard-core sling shooter.

this is my favorite rifle- best shooter I've ever owned- the normal trigger is set at 3# &the set trigger is set to 10oz. - and it's everything a Steyr-Mannlicher is supposed to be- a real tack driver!

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL433/1045515/1957272/51190107.jpg

blackdog
2005-07-08, 19:50
Good point. I've got a Harris on my rifle and I can just have the legs fold to the front and not have them rub on my back when using a sling carry. And I can still use my sling without a modification of the stock, looks like that device would not work that way.
The height of the device is only 32mm when folded but yes, it might rub on your back.

A socket is bolted onto the stock which the z-aim then is attached to. The system allows the hunter to use the same z-aim for more than one weapon. The stock needs no modifications to use the system, afaik.


I'm old school- I grew up in the NRA junior marksmanship program and then later competed in the CMP-CivilianMarksmanshipProgram before I was in the infantry in Vietnam. I still prefer the three positions we were taught in the programs. If I can- I shoot off of my pack for prone but I would just as soon use a sitting position to shoot from. And being trained old school and in the military I'm a hard-core sling shooter.
Have a look at the pictures on this swedish :( info page (http://www.zacrison.com/z-aim/index.asp?id=14) and compare with the positions you use now. I'm sure the constructor would appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

dropkick
2005-07-08, 21:05
I'm a gimp, and use a cane or stick in the woods. During last hunting season I started attaching a piece of wood to my cane with rubber bands, making a poor mans bipod. I roughly set it for my height while in a kneeling stance. Haven't used it anywhere except the range yet, but it's available if I need it.

Here is a quick illustration I just did with paint (I really need to get a digital camera). It might help if your not getting the idea from my "description".

SGT Rock
2005-07-09, 01:06
Thos pictures help a lot more Black Dog. The sitting position support looks like something I could use when hunting. Looks like there is a slig swivel:


The body is equipped with an Uncle Mike's Quick-Detachable Super Swivel stud.

And it looks like it goes fairly flat when folded for travel. It looks like attaching the thing takes a little work though.

blackdog
2005-07-09, 05:57
http://www.zacrison.se/z-aim/upload/bilder/Z_Shootingrest_Animated_GIF_m.gif

Looks like there is a sling swivel.
Yep, and you'll see it quite well on this page of images (http://www.zacrison.com/z-aim/index.asp?id=22). You'll also be able to see the effort the guy has put into the design to make it light and easy to handle.

Sgt.Krohn
2005-07-09, 12:48
Blackdog
I can see where, if I was hunting from a stand, in Texas a box blind, or a hanging tree seat, or tripod stand, it would be a great forearm support. Anytime you can have a mechanical support for the forearm it's going to make you more stable.
For me though, it's an issue of more weight on my rifle and something else attached to it. I'm also very comfortable with the techniques I use that I've learned through the years.

I do wish him luck with his product. I know a few people who would find it interesting and want to try one.

blackdog
2005-07-09, 15:06
Krohn, it's fully understandable. During my army days i always prefered the lightest of firearms. My favorite was a silly-looking green German high-velocity rifle with a plastic stock. Can't remember the name, but it felt like pointing a pencil. The exit-hole was big enough, though.

Number7
2005-08-08, 02:40
Backpackers 12ga
http://www.precisionweaponscorp.com/images/Shotgun2.JPG

dropkick
2005-08-08, 07:18
Doesn't look legal

Number7
2005-08-08, 15:42
It's legal in the states.

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

Best bear spray is triple O buckshot.

SGT Rock
2005-08-08, 16:38
That would make a good combat door opener.

Number7
2005-08-08, 19:54
For concealed carry I would opt for the S&W 340 in 357mag, or makarov 9x18mm . The S&W 340 is light, it's a revolver so it's inherantly reliable, it's provides a liberal amount of stopping power, and if you don't hit your attacker the horrendous flame and muzzle blast will scare him away. The makarov is sexier though, and more concealable. It's super reliable for an auto, and durable (chromed barrel), a very good balance of size weight and stopping power. Not quite a 9mm parabellum but more power than a 380. Did I mention you could prolly get at least two brand new bulgarian makarovs for the price of the S&W. The ammo is also very economical. They normally come with extra grips, soviet red star (how cool is that?), and basic black. A lot of people initially have a misconception that because they are east bloc they are shoddy and inaccurate. Most owners find the opposite to be true.

Mutinousdoug
2005-08-09, 00:20
Actually, this thread began as a request for opinions about a Mono-pod thingy, That I assume is for hunting (or possibly Military[?]).
You interjected a 12 ga pistol contraption and then Recommend a S&W 340 or Makarov for "personal protection".
Your public profile says you haven't served in the Military and you don't own or carry a firearm.
Permit me to ask: what are your qualifications for recommending a carry piece for any purpose?
Just wondering.

I've stood behind a 2" .357 fired with 110-125gr "max" loads and wouldn't recommend them for "self Defense" to any but the dedicated pistol (Oh, I mean: revolver) shooter. But my intention won't be to "...scare him away" when I commit to shooting at anyone.

Number7
2005-08-10, 07:19
Sorry I didn't mean to hijack Iceman's thread. I didn't see anything about a monopod in his post. Yeah I understand shooting that little 357 isn't a pleasant experience. I was in the military and the only 357mag I own is a DW, which is pleasant to shoot.

Mutinousdoug
2005-08-10, 12:06
So...I'm confused.
Is your profile not correct in stating that you never served in the military and you don't own a weapon?

dropkick
2005-08-10, 19:59
So...I'm confused.
Is your profile not correct in stating that you never served in the military and you don't own a weapon?

Unless you edit your profile after joining it lists you as a none military, none gun owner.
I didn't notice this about my own for quite awhile.

SGT Rock
2005-08-10, 22:18
Yes, some of these blocks are things I added latter. Honestly the gun one was an inside joke at first, but it seemed to work - so I left it up. Also, I've been thinking of adding law enforcement to branch of service list.

Mutinousdoug
2005-08-10, 22:35
My "troll meter" pegged after reading his profile, and I assumed: here was a non-shooter giving self-protection advice about firearms.
The thread is WAY off topic now in no small thanks to my mis-understanding.
Apologies to Number 7 and the Board. :damnmate:

Kea
2005-08-10, 23:17
IMI SP21 in .45 ACP. It's not a revolver, but it will do until I acquire a revolver that is friendly to a left-hander. Deadly accurate and a joy for a woman to shoot. This is my carry piece, so I carry hydroshocks in it for 2 leggers.

wawatusi
2005-09-09, 21:44
Hi all, New hear... Just to add my input. I carry a Kimber Ultra Eclipse II .45acp. My philosophy is that if I have to bring a handgun out I need to have the most effective firepower available. To me, from my experience, the 9mm, .380, and even .40 lack the "stopping power" of the .45. The reality is, is that all handgun calibers are insufficent and that it will most likley take more than one round to "stop" a threat. So to me it is best to have a round such as the .45 in a compact yet standard configuration such as the Kimber makes the most logical sense. The Kimber is a 1911 type pistol with a 3 inch barrel and 7 round capacity. The entire weapon is made from Stainless steel. But what is even more important than what blaster you choose is how much you train on the use and tactics of the weapon you choose to defend your life with.


IMHO of course and YMMV.....


http://www.kimberamerica.com/images/pistols/eclipseultra_II.jpg

Mutinousdoug
2005-09-12, 01:54
Wawatusi,
May I ask how much your Kimber weighs? Loaded with your choice of ammunition? And holster and extra magazine if carried?
I just looked at a Glock catalog that listed their lightest product at 19.75 oz + 2 oz for magazine + 7.5 oz for 7 rounds of .357 auto ammunition. It all adds up.

wawatusi
2005-09-13, 14:39
Wawatusi,
May I ask how much your Kimber weighs? Loaded with your choice of ammunition? And holster and extra magazine if carried?
I just looked at a Glock catalog that listed their lightest product at 19.75 oz + 2 oz for magazine + 7.5 oz for 7 rounds of .357 auto ammunition. It all adds up.



34oz empty. If you went with an aluminium framed kimber you can get down to 25oz... However I have found that the forged Stainless frame eases the kick of the .45 ammo over the lighter framed blasters of similar size. Makes follow up shots a little easier IMO. And the blast from a .45 and a 3 inch barrel is something to behold.... :biggrin:


Usually I carry (where legal, I have a FL CCW) the kimber with either 2 extra mags or a mag and a surefire in a brigade gunleather holster and a 2 mag or ` mag and surefire combo holder....

I don't notice this weight, but thats just me. YMMV.


I have never weighed it full as I never considered the weight of a weapon as a high priority compared to the size, portability, and reliabilty.


If I get a chance I will put it all on a scale for you and get back to you.


Cheers.

arctic rambler
2005-09-13, 23:29
Since this is the "Hiking Headquarters", I must say that I am surprised by this thread. It sounds like something that you would find on the "Rock Crawler Challenge" forum or the turn the ANWR into an rv park forum. Alot of this great site is devoted to figuring out how to save a half an ounce from a stove or a backpack, yet this thread merrily talks about the absolute necessity of carrying a heavy dangerous object into the backcountry that has no utility what so ever. I have spent forty years back packing, climbing and traveling in many places in the world - especially in wilderness Alaska and I have never felt at any time that I needed a fire iron. Most wilderness guides that I have met in Alaska now only pack bear spray. Note: I said wilderness guides not hunting or dude guides. I admit that I have not been to Iraq so I expect for the good sargent to disagree with me about that particular wilderness. So great, your pack weighs 14 ounces, your stove weighs 1/2 an ounce and you carry a two pound pistol. Yee Haa!

Kea
2005-09-13, 23:50
Alot of this great site is devoted to figuring out how to save a half an ounce from a stove or a backpack, yet this thread merrily talks about the absolute necessity of carrying a heavy dangerous object into the backcountry that has no utility what so ever.

I'm not sure where the 'dangerous' and the 'no utility' part come into this. I carry in the backcountry and I do so for my own personal defense. I'm trained to use it and I have a nice, tight 5 shot grouping, which makes it great deal less dangerous for anything other than the target. Like it or not, we do not live in a safe world, and as a woman I would rather pack 2 pounds of gun and ammo into the wilderness and NEVER use it, than be caught in a situation where I needed it and didn't have it. It's the two leggers I worry about, not the wildlife.


So great, your pack weighs 14 ounces, your stove weighs 1/2 an ounce and you carry a two pound pistol. Yee Haa!

So you are against carrying the minimum weight necessary to achieve the best function of the object? .3 ounces of alcohol stove do a marvelous job of cooking your dinner and you don't need more than that. However, the mass of a weapon does affect how you shoot it, which is why I selected the gun I did for personal protection, and why, when I select one for backpacking, I will take into consideration some of the thing I've learned here.

Seeker
2005-09-14, 00:37
Since this is the "Hiking Headquarters", I must say that I am surprised by this thread. It sounds like something that you would find on the "Rock Crawler Challenge" forum or the turn the ANWR into an rv park forum. Alot of this great site is devoted to figuring out how to save a half an ounce from a stove or a backpack, yet this thread merrily talks about the absolute necessity of carrying a heavy dangerous object into the backcountry that has no utility what so ever. I have spent forty years back packing, climbing and traveling in many places in the world - especially in wilderness Alaska and I have never felt at any time that I needed a fire iron. Most wilderness guides that I have met in Alaska now only pack bear spray. Note: I said wilderness guides not hunting or dude guides. I admit that I have not been to Iraq so I expect for the good sargent to disagree with me about that particular wilderness. So great, your pack weighs 14 ounces, your stove weighs 1/2 an ounce and you carry a two pound pistol. Yee Haa!

i think you have forgotten the audience at this particular site... i 'lurked' for 2 or 3 years before joining... wanted to make sure i'd fit in... many of the regular posters here have several things in common: current or ex-military and proud of it. patriotic. politically conservative. hammockers. alcohol stove tinkers. lightweight hikers. stories, jokes, and military lingo weave their way through the threads in a way you don't see on other forums, and few people question it. we even mentioned "fiddler's green" the other month, and i was certain someone would ask... no one did. that tells me they all understood or were too afraid to ask... given the number of novices who ask simple questions, i don't think people are afraid to ask... so i'm left with the former answer, in that many if not most of us are ex-military. seem to be a lot of hunters too, though that's not often discussed... it comes through in the threads though... many of us like to sport shoot. again, seldom discussed here, as mostly it's about hiking... but given the audience, i'm not surprised at the numbers who would choose to carry a gun. it has nothing to do with lightweight backpacking, it is simply an extension of a common background and world views... all are welcome here, again as evidenced by our international, male and female, and young and old posters...

i've looked at your public profile... by accident or on purpose, there's not much there. i don't know where you're from, if you've ever served, how old you are, or what you do for a living... you are safely insulated by the wonders of the electronic age. i will not assume that you've never served in the military, are in your late 40s/early 50s, male, live in alaska, and don't own a firearm... but that's the impression i get.

but before you knock someone's decision of "carrying a heavy dangerous object into the backcountry that has no utility what so ever", let me ask you a few questions... i don't want answers... i just want you to understand Kea's, and others', points. has your bear spray ever let you down? have you ever been attacked or harrassed by a larger group of people than your own party? have you ever had to use a firearm to defend yourself or others? have you ever fought with an 'angry drunk' or drug user who feels no pain and is immune to blows and mace? has your daughter ever been harrassed or assaulted on the school bus by a couple of older "boys"? was she allowed to carry pepper spray, or was there a "no weapons'' policy in place, and you as a parent were forced to let the government protect your child? how do you feel about the people who didn't heed the national weather service's hurricane warning and leave new orleans? not the poor, elderly, and sick, but the other thousands who could have left, but didn't... the one's who now blame the government, when they are simply part of the problem... don't know if it made the national news, but locally, one vietnam vet, a POOR, BLACK, former marine, WALKED the 70 miles from his home in NO to baton rouge... i admire his courage and stamina... you didn't see him asking anyone for a handout... so, the point of all this is, are you self reliant, or do you trust the government to protect you in the woods? personally, and i think a lot of my fellow posters will agree, I feel that I am the only one responsible for me. and if i feel the need to carry a gun, i have the 2nd amendment right to do so. it's not about weight. it's about self reliance.

i've been in one particularly ugly situation with a large group of drunks at an isolated public campground, and no longer camp in them... i have taken to stealth camping as far back in the woods as i can.

and by the way, no, i don't carry a gun. yet. but i'm not against it, nor am i afraid of those who do carry one... kea, and the rest of you, you can hang near my tree any time... i feel safer with you guys around me...

Mutinousdoug
2005-09-14, 00:40
Since this is the "Hiking Headquarters", I must say that I am surprised by this thread. It sounds like something that you would find on the "Rock Crawler Challenge" forum or the turn the ANWR into an rv park forum. Alot of this great site is devoted to figuring out how to save a half an ounce from a stove or a backpack, yet this thread merrily talks about the absolute necessity of carrying a heavy dangerous object into the backcountry that has no utility what so ever. I have spent forty years back packing, climbing and traveling in many places in the world - especially in wilderness Alaska and I have never felt at any time that I needed a fire iron. Most wilderness guides that I have met in Alaska now only pack bear spray. Note: I said wilderness guides not hunting or dude guides. I admit that I have not been to Iraq so I expect for the good sargent to disagree with me about that particular wilderness. So great, your pack weighs 14 ounces, your stove weighs 1/2 an ounce and you carry a two pound pistol. Yee Haa!

Well Mr AR,
I bet Mr Treadwell (or whatever his name was) felt the same way you do about providing for his own safety. Right up until the time just before he AND his girlfriend were eaten by the grizzly bears he loved SO much.
2 pound of iron IS a big investment in carried weight best tempered by a thorough assessment of the perceived threat and the added burden’s ability to mitigate that threat.
But I suspect you are just a troll: "...It sounds like something that you would find on the "Rock Crawler Challenge" forum or the turn the ANWR into an rv park forum..." Hmmm... with an anti-gun axe to grind.
"...no utility what so ever..." ??? As I recall in my brief visits to Alaska in 1969-1971 there were still Ptarmigan and Snowshoe rabbits in the "wilderness" around Anchorage. Perhaps the gun lobby has eliminated them as a food source there and in the lower 48 since then. So much for my pitiful 35 year packpacking experiences.

dropkick
2005-09-14, 02:16
I just wanted to add my 2 cents in the justified flaming of Arctic Rambler.
I get the feeling that he grew up somewhere other than Alaska, and the "wilderness guides" he quotes aren't very far behind him (if they are in fact guides - bar talk is cheap).
The post reminds me of the some of the garbage the so called "enviromentalists" who have come to Montana spew. Before chastising others for their views and actions it would be nice if they actually knew anything about the subjects they speak out on.

I have had 2 friends mauled by bears, one while jogging on a path directly behind his house, and the other while in the woods cutting firewood.
- So much for the bears always leaving you alone if you don't corner or startle them, chainsaw is a bit louder than a bear bell, and also he was stationary.
They both survived by getting very lucky and getting away (one up a tree the other into his truck). They were badly hurt, and both would have benefitted from carrying a sidearm.

There have also been several people attacked by mountain lion in my neighborhood.

While attacks are still fairly rare the animals are getting pushed more and more as people keep building on what was once open areas and incounters are on the increase.

Just this year I (and/or my dog) was stalked by a cougar while walking in a CITY park. Without my dog warning me I never would have seen it.
- I made myself big, yelled, and scared it off. I reported it and later it was trapped and moved (it was a young cat and had also been reported by others). This was in a family use area.

Yesterday, I found bear scat beneath the apple trees about 50 feet away from my cousins backdoor.

I don't always carry a weapon, but I see nothing wrong with those who do.
(and I often feel they might be smarter than me).

Sgathak
2005-09-14, 02:33
All the good points have been covered, but Ill just condense it up real quick to make the point a bit clearer.

1) The majority of people here serve or served in the military. Check out the "Roll Call" thread for a little wake up on who visits this site. (Hell, the user profiles have entries for branch of service, MOS, and weapons owned... think about it)
2) The reasons for carrying a firearm are personal, and for many people its for protection from dangerous animals, for others its from dangerous people.
3) Many people carry firearms for reasons not associated with protection from man or beast, but for food gathering purposes. "Rambles" (the term for extended hikes supported through hunting and fishing) are still alive and well in the Western States, as well as Alaska. Further, many backpack hunters rely on ultralight equipment as it allows for deeper hunts further from other people.

Now my own 2 cents...

Bear Spray has its place, but that place is NOT universal. In thick woods, or close quarters, bear sprays dont have the range nor the concentration to effect a bear or cat from a safe distance. In these places, you might not even SEE a dangerous predator until its within mere feet. Fire off a spray - let alone a fogger - under those circumstances and youll not only have a hard enough time hitting the bear, youll probably end up spraying yourself, the surrounding foliage, your own equipment, and such saturation will undoubtedly effect anyone who comes to your aid - aid which you WILL need if you spray yourself with ursine grade spray.

Now, sorry if all this doesnt jive with your world view...

Iceman
2005-09-14, 03:09
Gees' guys and gals, if I knew this thread was going to cause such a hub-bub, I would have posted it sooner. Gotta love it!

One other point that many forgot to recently mention, which ain't going to make AR any the happier, is; for just two pounds, nothing makes you look cooler or feel more manly, than strapping a handgun to your side. :biggrin:

Redleg
2005-09-14, 09:46
QUOTE=arctic rambler]Since this is the "Hiking Headquarters", I must say that I am surprised by this thread. It sounds like something that you would find on the "Rock Crawler Challenge" forum or the turn the ANWR into an rv park forum. Alot of this great site is devoted to figuring out how to save a half an ounce from a stove or a backpack, yet this thread merrily talks about the absolute necessity of carrying a heavy dangerous object into the backcountry that has no utility what so ever. I have spent forty years back packing, climbing and traveling in many places in the world - especially in wilderness Alaska and I have never felt at any time that I needed a fire iron. Most wilderness guides that I have met in Alaska now only pack bear spray. Note:

I am sorry, but I must disagree with your statment. Do not take that to be a personal attack. It is not intended as such.

There are 3 designated hiking trails in my area (defined as a 50 mile radius.)
My son and I hike in the hundreds of miles of "wilderness area" that abound in the eastern oregon area. Couger sightings are almost common. Black bear I am not so worried about. However, the encroachment of portable meth. labs, and the "gangs" that service them, into the access roads and margin areas DO cause me some worry. Apparently they think that if its not paved over, its deserted.

It's not just the bears that I'm packing my 16 oz smith and 9 oz of ammo, for
jaf

wawatusi
2005-09-14, 10:43
Since this is the "Hiking Headquarters", I must say that I am surprised by this thread. It sounds like something that you would find on the "Rock Crawler Challenge" forum or the turn the ANWR into an rv park forum. Alot of this great site is devoted to figuring out how to save a half an ounce from a stove or a backpack, yet this thread merrily talks about the absolute necessity of carrying a heavy dangerous object into the backcountry that has no utility what so ever. I have spent forty years back packing, climbing and traveling in many places in the world - especially in wilderness Alaska and I have never felt at any time that I needed a fire iron. Most wilderness guides that I have met in Alaska now only pack bear spray. Note: I said wilderness guides not hunting or dude guides. I admit that I have not been to Iraq so I expect for the good sargent to disagree with me about that particular wilderness. So great, your pack weighs 14 ounces, your stove weighs 1/2 an ounce and you carry a two pound pistol. Yee Haa!



LOL.... You got it all wrong... I want to turn ANWR into the next "Rock Crawler Challenge" meat.... All with free oil.... [Jamacian Redstripe voice]Hooray Oil![/Jamacian Redstripe voice]. Do you want to be my spotter as I high center my jeep's 35" gumbo mudders over a pair of mating moose? :biggrin:


Seriously friend. Look at the graphics of this site, the profile section, and heck even the smilies. Do you REALLY think you are standing on the moral high ground here? I don't publicly judge you as ill prepared because you refuse to consider the same tools that I do, why should you then? Yee-haa indeed.......

You have not had an occasion to need a "fire iron". I have had more than one. One which included a volley with several (luckily) very poor shots in the Rio Chama Wilderness in N.M. Perhaps these individuals only wanted to rob me and my group. Perhaps they wanted more. I chose not to leave that decision up to them. Fortunatley these individuals retreated and were eventually arrested. (They were robbing groups and raping female individuals in the canyon area, They killed two over a three year period) I can probably find you articles if you are interested.

Also read in this month's mens Journal about the kayak trip down the Borzos.... Being shot at by unscrupulous individuals is a real threat. In this case do you choose preparedness or politics?

Note the Appalachian trail has a WHOLE section on crime. Why?
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.794153/k.9D5E/Health_and_Safety.htm

Not all hikers, hammock campers, etc. are granola eating, long haired, phish listening, hippy types and I think thats great. But I value life as sacred and I believe that preservation of life includes defending it sometimes.

Others here have addressed what my remaining responses to you would be so I won't repeat it. (Thanks Captain seeker)

Since many of us are military and Vets I would like to share with you a great article by Col. David Grossman, Sheep, Wolf, or Sheepdog (http://wawatusi.com/sheep.htm) that may give you some insight into the mindset I would assume many here have.

But I will leave you with this. Why would you fear law abiding citizens from carrying a firearm on his or her person while he or she is hiking in the wilderness? Is it the law abiding citizent that you fear or is it the criminal element that you should be worried about?




-JMc USAF Veteran :rankf-ssg

Kea
2005-09-14, 13:21
I have had 2 friends mauled by bears, one while jogging on a path directly behind his house, and the other while in the woods cutting firewood.
- So much for the bears always leaving you alone if you don't corner or startle them, chainsaw is a bit louder than a bear bell, and also he was stationary.
They both survived by getting very lucky and getting away (one up a tree the other into his truck). They were badly hurt, and both would have benefitted from carrying a sidearm.

I think that when people think of bears, they often forget that there are different kinds of bears. A black bear is generally going to avoid confrontation with humans, unless there is food involved. This is why we hear over and over again how important it is to not turn a good bear bad in the first place. Black bears are also the kind you're going to encounter in the Eastern US, and city dwelling environmental activists can't tell them from a cow anyway.

I've always been told that grizzly bears are a whole different beast, and that you cannot predict whether they will leave you alone or attack. They are serious predators who can bring down a moose or a elk. Humans are just another part of the menu selection.


There have also been several people attacked by mountain lion in my neighborhood.

We have coyotes that are known to prey on pets in outlying areas of the sprawl. They ain't nothing like a mountain lion, though.

I carry a caliber that I am fairly certain will at least deter a bear bent on making trouble for me, but I am much more concerned about the problems of people and what they might be up to.

dropkick
2005-09-15, 02:48
I think that when people think of bears, they often forget that there are different kinds of bears. A black bear is generally going to avoid confrontation with humans, unless there is food involved. This is why we hear over and over again how important it is to not turn a good bear bad in the first place. Black bears are also the kind you're going to encounter in the Eastern US, and city dwelling environmental activists can't tell them from a cow anyway.

I've always been told that grizzly bears are a whole different beast, and that you cannot predict whether they will leave you alone or attack. They are serious predators who can bring down a moose or a elk. Humans are just another part of the menu selection.

We have coyotes that are known to prey on pets in outlying areas of the sprawl. They ain't nothing like a mountain lion, though.

I carry a caliber that I am fairly certain will at least deter a bear bent on making trouble for me, but I am much more concerned about the problems of people and what they might be up to.

You should be very careful in areas that contain any type of bear.
The friend that was jogging got mauled by a black bear ( it followed him up the tree, but he was able to go high enough into the thin branches and kick it so that it fell and then gave up).
I don't remember what type of bear went after my other friend, but I suspect that it was a black bear, as he is still with us.

I just did a quick search trying to find the number of black bear vs. grizzly maulings in a year but couldn't find any sites with info I trusted. (i.e. either trying to sell pepper spray or spinning the numbers so it won't scare the tourists -Yellowstone- or just plain lying in order to support grizzly reintroduction/peta)

Because of that I can't quote anything in support of what I'm about to say but...
The number of black bear attacks is slightly higher than the number of grizzly attacks.
So... if you get mauled, you're more likely to have been attacked by a brown bear, but as the grizzly population is smaller you're more likely to be attacked by a grizzly.
So just be careful.

Oneriver
2005-09-15, 10:33
I do a little wilderness hiking and canoeing, just returned from 2 weeks on the Pelly River in the Yukon Territory and usually carry a .338 mag or a 12 gauge mag..when hiking on area trails I carry a .45 colt Vaquaro with 320 gr. slugs (a max load for the cal.)...Walkin the dog in the parks and on the street I carry a S&W 637 (small J frame) pocket pistol in .38 cal...I'm a beliver in big bullets a la Elmer Keith...I don't have much use for the 9mm and I'm sure the military made a big mistake by adopting it..gotta ask yourself why arn't the other agencies using it? There have been about 6 bear attacks here in Alaska this year, I personaly have seen 5 black bears and one grizzly on the trail so far this season..

Seeker
2005-09-15, 13:46
i have a 12ga Rem 870 for hunting and home protection, but no handgun (yet.) but i too questioned the army's 9mm conversion back in 1988, when my unit got them... couldn't hit much with it, but got better... still didn't like the lack of 'punch'...

Sgathak
2005-09-15, 14:00
You know... Europe always had a thing for smaller caliber pistols, and you dont hear alot of complaint from the UKs SAS, Germanys GSG-9, Austrias GEK, and Frances GIGN. Israeli also makes top use of small caliber weapons, issuing 9mm glocks and SIGs to their numerous elite units. Russias top counter terror units still use 9x18Mak for their sidearms. What are "they" doing that "we" arnt if 9mm gets the job done when they shoot it, and people in the US still worship their hand cannons?

wawatusi
2005-09-15, 14:07
I always assumed I would have to throw my 92f at a threat for it to have any effect.....

Oneriver
2005-09-15, 15:37
Europians are not as tenacious as Americans..the 9mm fails time after time...ck out this web site it may help you with a better understanding through comparisions...I'm sure Europe dosen't keep stats on this kinda stuff..
http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/one.shot.stops.htm...How many times did the other poster shoot the dog w/9mm..?

Sgathak
2005-09-15, 17:01
Ypu those dern Europeans... made out of tissue paper I tell ya :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That has to be one of the dumbest .... oh forget it .... Its not worth it.

Sgathak
2005-09-15, 17:20
Oh it was just too dumb to not respond.

From your own page.


I found the chart interesting because the main duty calibers (9mm, 357 Sig, 357 Mag, .40, 10mm, & .45 were all fairly close. The effective one-shot stop percentage ranged between 90% and 96%. The bullet penetration ranged between 11 and 14. The average recovered bullet diameter ranged between .62 and .82.

And if you look REALLLLLLYYYY closely, you see that the 9mm, by percentage, stopped more than the 10mm, the 44Spl., 41mag., and the 45 freaking colt!

Its AP was IDENTICAL to the 40S&W, and 44Spl, and only 1/10th of an inch less than the 45ACP.

On top of that, the ARD on the 9mm was only 5 hundreths of an inch less than the ARD of the 45ACP, and actually LARGER than the 40S&W

Well... forgive me for not be staggered by the OBVIOUS superiority of the 45 over the 9mm.

Oneriver
2005-09-15, 17:58
Ypu those dern Europeans... made out of tissue paper I tell ya :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That has to be one of the dumbest .... oh forget it .... Its not worth it.

Use could use a little work on your cents of humor..relax the butt cheeks a bit...

Kea
2005-09-15, 19:16
The 9mm is a great weapon, but the muzzle velocity is just high enough that it is difficult to assure myself that I won't shoot through the target and hit something I didn't intend. 45acp is a nice, heavy, slow round that when it hits, especially with a reasonable quality hollopoint, that it's going to discharge most all of the force into what it hits. I wanted something with assured stopping power and also that I could take responsibility for the bullet with.

Besides, women who carry a 45 are much more likely to give someone a lot more pause. :)

However, I think I want a nice ported 357 snubnose for hiking. :)

Seeker
2005-09-16, 01:22
Sgathak, (what's that mean, anyway, if you care to share.. i've been wondering for years...)

i will say you've made me stop and consider rethinking my cherished opinion on the 45 vs the 9mm... and that's a major step... i'll be honest, the biggest thing i didn't like about my military 9mm was the size of it's handgrip after the cal.45.... i had no way of measuring how hard it hit... i just know that my shot group went from about 6'' at 25m to about 10'' when i started shooting it... still good enough to "qualify" with, not that that really means anything... i think 26 out of 40 hits with an M16 qualified you, and that's a pretty lousy grade... 65%, i think... that's an F+/D- everywhere i went to school. don't remember what the standard was for the 45 and 9mm, but it was probably similar. i got better over time, but never really got too good with it, and never 'comfortable'... always felt like i was holding a baseball after the nice slim 45...

the german's made something i played with once at a german/american shooting match called a P-9, and another one called the P-13, i think... one held 9 rounds in a stacked clip, like the 45, while the other held 13 rounds offset in a fat clip... same mechanism, different capacity... first time i shot the P-9, i scored 3rd best of the 20-25 or so officers there... so maybe ergonomics has a lot to do with it...

that said, i'll relook the 9mm... thanks for challenging my opinions and making me think...i tend to value that a lot... even if i don't change my mind, i respect ideas and people who make me think...

dropkick
2005-09-16, 01:25
You know... Europe always had a thing for smaller caliber pistols, and you dont hear alot of complaint from the UKs SAS, Germanys GSG-9, Austrias GEK, and Frances GIGN. Israeli also makes top use of small caliber weapons, issuing 9mm glocks and SIGs to their numerous elite units. Russias top counter terror units still use 9x18Mak for their sidearms. What are "they" doing that "we" arnt if 9mm gets the job done when they shoot it, and people in the US still worship their hand cannons?

The U.S. used to carry a .38 untill 1913 when they were in the Philippines fighting the Moros. The Moros were religious fanatics that used a combination of body binding, narcotics, and religious ritual to prepare themselves for battle. The .38 didn't stop them.
The U.S. moved to the M1911 .45 cal. because of this.

I'm not a gun smith, nor have I bothered to look up the statistics on this, but I have owned and fired both weapons many times and in my estimation a 9mm is an underpowered .38.

And who's the idiot that decided that a foreign company should or could supply our armed forces Beretta!?! In the last World War they were on the other side! :damnmate:



P.S. Some of you may remember that I carry a .357 and my saying that I think it's more than big enough - and yes I know it's a .38 but it's a Dang powerful .38

Oneriver
2005-09-16, 09:57
Where the 9mm fails is in its military ball round...the choice of bullet type is very important especially with the smaller calibers...I carry a small J frame S&W 38 on the Block and I know thats marginal but for me there is a trade off on weight and size and being comfortable...If I were a crime fighter I would probably have a 44 special custom job somewhere near by...

eyewall
2005-10-01, 05:21
I plan on hiking the AT in 2007. So, do you think many people carry a weapon doing that trail, or do you carry on trails you think are more "deserted" and are possibly large animal risks? And, if you do carry, do you carry in the open or concealed on your person or pack? And...lastly, if it is concealed I would imagine you would need a permit to do that...correct?

Mutinousdoug
2005-10-01, 14:32
Eyewall,
It seems that all states define legal carry and concealed carry in different ways and you would need to consult the state issuing authority in the state you are hiking.
Generally, most states define concealed as "hidden within easy reach or ready access". In some states you might make the argument that inside your pack is not " within easy access". Note however, that you will probably be making that claim in court. After spending the night or weekend in jail. The likelyhood of anyone searching your pack is very remote unless you actually have to pull the weapon on someone.
In Colorado open carry in the National Forests is more-or-less common, especially during any of the hunting seasons, and concealed carry is prohibited anywhere without a CC permit. National Parks and Monumements prohibit firearms of any kind and I suppose a CC permit would be invalid there. I'm just not sure.
You need to ask yourself what you are carrying for and does your method of carry provide for that end.
I find it kind of difficult to find a convenient place to carry a handgun when burdened with a backpack but burying it in the pack renders it just about useless for sudden enounters with dangerous "animals", so what's the point?
I guess the short of it is to contact the forest service in the state you're hiking in, find out what is permitted and carry (concealed or open) based on that info. HTH

Sgathak
2005-10-01, 15:08
consult packing.org and see where (if any) your states CCW permit is valid. Many states recognize CCWs from other states with similar laws and standards.

for example, with a CCW permit from CO, a person could hike the majority CDT with a conceiled firearm. New Mexico doesnt recongnize ANY states CCWs.. but the rest share reciprocity with CO.

If I wanted to hike the Great Western Trail (And be a trail blazer http://gwt.org) ALL of the states either recognize or share reciprocity with a CO permit.

Your profile says your from Iowa. According to packing.org, your CCW is NOT valid in ANY state where the AT passes, with the exception of Vermont (who have NO laws regarding gun carry). You couldnt carry on the CDT or the PCT either. You COULD do the GWT if you didnt dip into WY though.

wawatusi
2005-10-01, 23:15
NM does allow "open carry" though.....

Mutinousdoug
2005-10-02, 13:50
That's true Wawtusi,
And NM allows concealed carry in your car or on your Motorcycle without a CC permit. They seem to have a reasonable training reqmt for a CC permit that includes instruction on local, state and fed deadly force law as well as avoidance of violent confrontation and recognition of possible criminal situations.
I hope that there will soon be reciprocity between NM and Colorado concealed carry. Then the only states adjoining Colo w/o CC reciprocity will be Nebraska and Kansas.

Sgathak
2005-10-02, 14:21
I can see someone doing the NM section while openly carrying... but what a pain.

As for NM sharing reciprocity with CO. I dont think it can legally happen without the NM constitution beings amended.

Mutinousdoug
2005-10-02, 15:12
...

As for NM sharing reciprocity with CO. I dont think it can legally happen without the NM constitution beings amended.

So...
Educate me on the NM constitution. Something specific in there on reciprocity?
Or they just got a general beef with us Greenies?

Sgathak
2005-10-02, 16:02
The New Mexico Constitution states:
No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms.

Its been challenged by enacting Shall Issue... and then Shall Issue was revoked and even the CC of LEOs was questioned constitutionally, and then it was reinstated with some new clause, and then challenged again... and so until they get the wording of their constitution either figured out, or ammended, dont expect them to offer reciprocity. They cant even decide if their residents should be allowed to carry...

Mutinousdoug
2005-10-02, 18:04
Sgathak,
Well I can see that I shouldn't get impatient but according to "packing.org" this summer NM passed and enacted a bill: HB641 implimented on June 17th 2005 establishing "Shall Issue" in that state. Since then some 3123 CHL permits have been issued. Their permit reqmts are more stringent than Colorado's re: training and qualification, but I think I see a light. Way out there.
I'm hopeful.

eyewall
2005-10-03, 04:05
All,
Thanks for the response. This has been an interesting thread. I have had a weapon(s) since I was 14 years old. I do not have a concealed permit, and find no need of it as yet. I'm more of a single shot long range shooter; ie. small varmints at 300 yards, but I do enjoy handguns as well :) Of course I have not hiked in locations where I felt that I have been threatened in any way...which could easily enough change in the future...

Oneriver
2005-10-03, 09:55
I plan on hiking the AT in 2007. So, do you think many people carry a weapon doing that trail, or do you carry on trails you think are more "deserted" and are possibly large animal risks? And, if you do carry, do you carry in the open or concealed on your person or pack? And...lastly, if it is concealed I would imagine you would need a permit to do that...correct?
I can't imagine being compliant with the ccw laws while crossing other state lines. I don't rely on the state to protect me at home or on the trail. I try and obey the law where I can and carry for the most part concealed, except here in Alaska you do not need a permit to carry concealed and on the trails many people carry guns openly...

wawatusi
2005-10-03, 13:26
That's true Wawtusi,
And NM allows concealed carry in your car or on your Motorcycle without a CC permit. They seem to have a reasonable training reqmt for a CC permit that includes instruction on local, state and fed deadly force law as well as avoidance of violent confrontation and recognition of possible criminal situations.
I hope that there will soon be reciprocity between NM and Colorado concealed carry. Then the only states adjoining Colo w/o CC reciprocity will be Nebraska and Kansas.



lol... Just make sure you are within 3 feet of your motorcycle when you lock it up.... At least thats the conventional wisdom...


In NM your Car is an extension of your home so you can carry concealed if you wish in your car.

SGT Rock
2005-10-04, 19:22
I plan on hiking the AT in 2007. So, do you think many people carry a weapon doing that trail, or do you carry on trails you think are more "deserted" and are possibly large animal risks? And, if you do carry, do you carry in the open or concealed on your person or pack? And...lastly, if it is concealed I would imagine you would need a permit to do that...correct?

At one time I would carry on the AT, but after years of hiking there I don't. I have found it really isn't needed if you take proactive measures to ensure your safety. IMO your first line of defense should always been avoiding getting into a situation where you may need one, just like trying to avoid and/or minimize the time spent in any danger area during a mission. If you don't camp within a mile of most roads and watch out when you hitch you should be OK. There are other things that can make you even safer like avoiding shelters for sleeping that could also help, but it depends on how far you really want to push it.

If you do carry, things you should consider:

1. NEVER let the gun get away from your arms reach and your control. I say this because many places won't let you bring a pack in as a general policy, so your pack could be out of your site and control during shopping trips for re-supply. If the most dangerous thing in my pack is a lighter, then it isn't that hazardous to anyone else. But if a criminal was to take your pack and now also has your gun that would be a bad thing in many ways.

Add to that there occasionally are thieves in the hiking community. You could leave your pack at the shelter while you go to the privy. While you are gone one of these low-lifers could decide he wants to get his mitts on your camera, cash, or whatever and may find and take your gun.

So to follow that, you would need to really carry on your person. The best way IMO would be a fanny pack that has a concealed gun compartment. You could go just about anywhere with this. The one I have is built so that you can access your gun very quickly.

2. Entry into establishments could be limited. If you do decide to carry and do it with the fanny pack just remember that establishments can deny access to their facilities if you have a firearm. You could go in without letting them know, but then if you were to get caught with it for some reason you could be locked up. Even if you have a CCW permit you can be denied the privilege to come into someone's place with the weapon.

So imagine you are with a group that wants to use a hostel, and the hostel owner doesn't allow guns, you don't get to stay there. Or a bank for money, a post office for a mail drop, a restaurant with your friends for some good AYCE, etc.

3. Simply carrying a weapon doesn't make you safe. You have to be alert, have a plan at all times for it's use, have to have the determination to fire it, and you have to constantly make the decision to use or not to use it. IMO this would be the real hard part for most people because you could end up guessing wrong and either be dead, or in prison for a very long time. Don't do it and you may actually arm the opponent with a firearm unintentionally, or you may end up shooting someone that may end up being innocent. You may brandish the firearm and defuse the situation or you may end up in jail needing a lawyer. Any way about it, your hike will probably end if you ever do pull it out.

Also, you always have the option of running or staying out of situations. Audie Murphy (according to one story I read about him from one of his troops) would actually take the weapons away from guys he sent on scouting missions because he said something to the effect that carrying a weapon only made them get into situations they shouldn't have and get into trouble when they should be thinking about the recon mission. My PSG back in the day also would say the same thing about scouts "All a scout needs is a bicycle and a BB gun". The same logic could be applied to hiking the AT and weapons.

4. Carrying a firearm also means maintaining a firearm. Keeping it clean, dry, and ready to function at all times is a must if you plan to carry. You will have to decide when to do this discreetly, and DAILY. So add 12 ounces for a light gun, 6 ounces for ammo, and about 4 more ounces for a cleaning kit to do this correctly and you have an extra pound+ of gear to your that thousands of AT thru-hikers have never needed before.

There are probably other reasons as cons to consider against it. But just from my point of view, a long time ago a gun was on my planned thru-hike gear list. I was looking at a lightweight revolver in .38 special made from something like Titanium to reduce weight and maintenance. After a few years of thinking about this and hiking the AT I removed the weapon from my plan and never blinked at the decision.

Now if I were to try and hike the PCT in the southern end, I might go armed. I haven't researched it, but as I hear it there are cases of hikers getting attacked for their food and water by boarder crossers.

Mutinousdoug
2005-10-05, 01:31
What HE says.
Concealed carry is a PITA. If you are not willing and diciplined enough to deal with all the issues involved, find another way to defend yourself on the trail.
For myself, hiking in a semi-urban enviornment doesn't really appeal so I don't see myself coming East to hike the AT or West to hike the Southern PCT. (Just kidding! you AT hikers! Jeeze!) I don't like to even drive downtown unless I have to.
When I choose to carry, I carry from the time I leave home to the time I get back. If I go to the can, the piece goes too. Either I am carrying it or it's locked in my safe at home. My hikes are mainly limited to 3-5 days so I don't have to go shopping while carrying my gear.
I have gone on commercial trips where firearms were "not allowed". In those cases I carried ''descretely" (when I carried) and I would have been quite embarrassed to have those along (aside from my wife, who knows) find I was carrying, out of compliance with their rules. I make a note of rules and laws prior to my trips and pack accordingly. I am keenly aware that having to actually use this lump of iron I carry in self defense will end any enjoyment I am having on that trip and for an extended period thereafter.
Here is my bias:
I currently shoot NRA High Power rifle competatively all summer when I'm not camping. I shot bullseye pistol from 1990-95 weekly and IHMSA revolver before that for 5-6 years. I've hunted deer and elk in Colorado since 1978 with a bow or muzzleloader. I belong to 2 gun clubs; one is competitive and the other recreational. I shoot year round, more than most.
If you are not interested in shooting, I don't think you should carry a gun for protection. Keep one in your home if you wish. If you think you need to carry one, then take the time and expense to learn how to use and maintain one. Practice with it. Join a club and shoot. Learn the laws in your state for use of deadly force. It's a lot more important than the $500 you will pay for your S&W or Glock. Or $125 POS Lorcin/etc.
And remember: 99% of the people you meet out there, who happen to be carrying, are OK people. ( Except for the ETOH drinking, shoot the can off each others heads type, that don't seem to get too far off the 4WD road, and should be forceably and permanently restrained.)
Lastly: YMMV

wawatusi
2005-10-05, 15:48
LAst two posts=Excellent information.... :dancing2:

Icemanat95
2005-10-06, 14:56
To add to the last few posts.

The Northeastern US is one of the more restrictive areas to consider carrying a firearm. From Around Maryland northwards, things just get difficult. PA is fairly easy from what I understand, but New York and New Jersey are draconian...you are NOT going to get a non-resident permit from either. Connecticut isn't likely to issue either, neither is Massachusetts which also has the Bartley Fox law which imposes a mandatory 2 - 10 year jail term for carrying a firearm illegally. Vermont doesn't give a damn, you can carry there without issue so long as you don't get stupid. New Hampshire issues non-resident permits fairly liberally. Maine will also issue a non-resident permit, but requires training and a significant fee.

Now, another thing you need to consider is the two National Parks. carrying firearms is STRICTLY prohibitted in both the Great Smoky Mountain National Park and the Shenandoah National Park. Don't get caught.

I am going to be applying for a non-resident carry permit for Massachusetts, but seeing as I have a 15 year record of safe carry there as a resident, I should have less of a problem about it. I'll let you know how it goes.

But Rock is pretty much right. The back country along the East Coast is safer than life in your average small town, in fact, it's a LOT safer. Yesterday a family in Northboro, MA was walking in a park behind the retirement community where the grandfather lived when they were attacked by a coyote. THe old fellow wrestled the coyote down and pinned it under his body while they waited for animal control to come. Northboro is a suburban community, pretty well developed. I have yet to hear of a coyote attack in the backcountry, there just isn't enough population pressure to touch it off, the coyotes can run more easily without getting cornered.

People are also not a significant problem on the AT so long as you mind your P's and Qs and stay alert. Women are at a greater risk, but even they can readily protect themselves just be staying alert and camping and going to town in groups.

Don't go looking for trouble and you are going to be a heck of a lot less likely to find it.

From a practical standpoint you've also got to consider how you carry the weapon and if that method makes the weapon functionally inaccessible in an emergency. The fanny-pack method that Sgt. Rock described seems the most practical one, but really, how fast can you get that gun out of there and present it on target? How long is it going to take you to identify a likely threat and how much time are they going to give you to draw and present the weapon?

Professional firearms trainers will tell you that if an attacker is within 21 feet of you with a drawn knife or club or just intends to pummel you to death with their bare hands, they can go from a standing stop to contact in less time than it takes the average TRAINED person to draw a weapon from a holster, present it and fire it. 21 feet, seven yards, 6.5 meters. About 8-9 steps. Do you think you will have that much space to work with IF something should happen? Carrying a pack and probably holding hiking sticks or poles, are you going to be able to dump the poles, open the fanny pack, draw and fire your weapon in the 1-2 seconds it takes that person to cross that distance, if you even recognize the attack coming in time? Most criminal attacks are outright ambushes from concelament or with concealed purpose to begin with.

I'm not saying that a gun is without defensive value...clearly it is not and not every attacker is going to seek to close with you instantly, possibly providing ample time for reaction. I also have a friend who only stopped a seriously aggressive bear in the White Mountains by putting a round over it's head. What I am saying is that the complications and the needed training probably outweigh the potential value in the Eastern backcountry. You'd probably be better served by learning some fundamental jiu-jutsu techniques VERY well.

Aegis
2005-10-23, 04:47
Well, I just spent the last hour reading the thread and would like to add my two cents – if you’ll allow me.

I carry concealed either a S&W 5906 or a 3913 every day – for work – and I have to admit it’s a pain in the butt! You have to plan how you dress and you have to plan how to wear it, the right holster for the right clothing – talk about accessorizing!

Every time I go to the range for qualification I shoot better with the 3913 (which is a single stack 8 round mag) then with my issued 5906 (staggered stack with 15 rounds). And I attribute the better scores of the 3913 because of ergonomics – it fits into my hands better and is easier to control.

But I think the two major points I’d like to touch on are these;
I wouldn’t carry a weapon on a hike if I absolutely didn’t have to because they are just a pain and as stated by Top they add not only weight but are a serious responsibility.
If I had to carry – I love .45’s and own two of them - one is here in a Hawaii with me and the other is in PA near where the AT crosses 501. I shoot that one every time I go home to visit – never take my nines there either - WAY too hard to get on a plan now a days with a weapon. Heck the last 4 extraditions I’ve done have been unarmed because of the airline regulations!

Well, that’s just my two cents – thanks for reading them.

Jim

Mutinousdoug
2005-12-02, 22:54
By way of NM dept of safety: Reciprocity with Colorado CCW became law on 30 Nov 2005. :biggrin:
Now, don't all of you go out there and apply for yours all at once.

Sgathak
2005-12-03, 02:40
By way of NM dept of safety: Reciprocity with Colorado CCW became law on 30 Nov 2005. :biggrin:
Now, don't all of you go out there and apply for yours all at once.

Keeewwwwllllllll :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

jimtanker
2005-12-03, 03:18
My new toy:
Supersoaker (http://gprime.net/video.php/supersoakerflamethrower)

Works great and is safe with WD40!

wanderer
2005-12-04, 17:27
Last time I was in an area populated by mountain lions I had my rem 870 (18.5" bbl. and mag xtension) stuffed with #4 and #1 buckshot. I was night hiking and had the 870 on a tactical sling. I think I "need" to put a surefire light on it :biggrin: . Never had to use it but the #4 buck works great on called in coyotes. I generally don't hunt coyotes because I have no place to sell the hides locally, but these coyotes were chicken theives and something had to be done.

ktrout01
2006-06-09, 09:13
My trail carry is usually a S&W 638 with Win Silvertips. I carry it in an Eagle Creek belt pouch strongside. It's a compromise but it should be adequete if I need it. I like the shrouded hammer because it won't snag in the pouch and yet allows me to use it single action if need be. The pouch also keeps it clean and holds the 2 spare speed loaders and cleaning kits.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/412412.JPG

Iceman
2006-06-09, 12:28
Form follows function! Smooth out of the bag, good choice. I have always liked revolvers for their ease of use.

Mutinousdoug
2006-06-09, 23:33
My trail carry is usually a S&W 638 with Win Silvertips. I carry it in an Eagle Creek belt pouch strongside. It's a compromise but it should be adequete if I need it.


Ktrout01;
Everything SD is a compromise. Assess the level of threat, likelyhood thereof and move on.
MHO; Your choice is adequate up to cougar (provided you see her first :smile: ), Black bear too, if not habituated to humans. A 4" .357 would be marginal in that case. A .44 Mag won't help much on a determined Brownie. Each step up has a price to pay in iron you're not likely to use very much. fishing guides in alaska often carry 12 guages to discourage predation of their clients.
I'd like to have a blued model 38, they're nice guns but my 2" model 15 (K frame) will have to do for now. SST guns have alot going for them; sight aquisition not being one of those things.
I carry a .22 Bearcat when fishing and I keep a clean camp. When hunting and think I might have the smell of blood around me, a 4" model 66 .357 . with blued or blackened sights.

Take-a-knee
2006-06-10, 18:51
Mutinousdoug I beg to differ with you on the utility of a 44mag pistol against dangerous critters. I read an article from the Anchorage paper last year on the net that told of a guy walking his dog on some property adjacent to FT Richardson near Anchorage. He was charged by a large grizzly, he got three rounds into the bear as I remember and turned him. The guy went to call DNR and they found the bear dead near the scene. Rifleman or Reloader ran an article written by a seasoned Alaskan master guide who has stopped bear charges with his trusty 458mag mauser. He's done penetration tests of various large handgun cartridges on, of all things, beached whales. He said that heavy 357 loads (180gr) gave nearly as big of a wound channel as the 44 mag. Penetration is the key to stopping the charge, making enough neurons go nuts to take his mind off of you, at least temporarily. With a 3-4in 357mag with 180gr gold dots or hard cast lead you are quite well armed. My kit gun is a S&W model 360 Airlite 357, it weighs 15 oz. unloaded. If I was in grizzly country, I'd rather have a 44mag but I wouldn't feel unarmed with that little 357.

Mutinousdoug
2006-06-10, 20:05
Mutinousdoug I beg to differ with you on the utility of a 44mag pistol against dangerous critters. I read an article from the Anchorage paper last year on the net that told of a guy walking his dog on some property adjacent to FT Richardson near Anchorage. He was charged by a large grizzly, he got three rounds into the bear as I remember and turned him. The guy went to call DNR and they found the bear dead near the scene. If I was in grizzly country, I'd rather have a 44mag but I wouldn't feel unarmed with that little 357.

Take-a-knee,
I don't dispute any of your statement but I hope we can agree to disagree on the utility of a .44 mag on a "determined" brownie. The report you cite allows that the bear shot three times was "turned" and "later" was found dead. That the bear "turned" rather than killed on the spot is my point exactly. Steve Herrera reports in his book "Bear Attacks" that brown bears have been sucessfully defended against with a .22 rifle and "turned" but not killed by a head shot from a .458 Win mag that broke the bear's jaw and lodged in the jaw bone.
The point I was trying to make in my post and I think you sort of confirmed, is that the .44 is still in the same ballpark as an appropriate .357 (180gr solid from a 4" barrel, loaded as hot as your particular gun will allow). Any pistol beats a pointed stick (and yes, Fred Bear took a GREAT big Kodiak with his pointed stick, on his 2nd try. His backup had to "assist" with his 1st bear). Anyway, .44 is bigger medicine than a .357. In my book, either is puny brown bear medicine. I defer to those who disagree and wish them long life and good hunting.

Take-a-knee
2006-06-11, 01:09
We are basically in agreement, you don't say a 44mag is worthless against bears like many do. I would be the first to say it is certainly not optimum. I would say a mauser (or an 03A3 Springfield) with a 20in barrel in 35 Whelan would be optimum for carry in bear country. A good set of ghost-ring sights and some range time and plenty of practice flicking that bolt is about all a man can do to prepare, apart from not getting himself hemmed in in the first place. A 375 H&H would be better for the really big bears, but most bears aren't really big, even in Alaska. It all comes down to how much insurance you are willing to carry. I was told of an account of a couple of airmen who had a succesful brown bear hunt and were in the process of quartering this bear that had gone down in a stream. One of them had kept his rifle slung and that was a good thing 'cause they were charged by an even bigger bear, he fell about a rifle length from them. The stream was then handy for cleaning out their pants. Bears, any type of bear, can be quite fierce. It is amazing to see one skinned out and see just how much muscle is on one. Even A small bear looks like a bodybuilder that has been eating steroids and pumping iron for decades.

dropkick
2006-06-11, 03:21
You guys are all a bunch of wimps using guns, my Dad has told me many times how he used to subdue huge bears with just his loose leaf binder. He had fight them off all the time on his 10 mile walk to school. And he did it in 6 feet of snow! While walking uphill, both ways!
My Dad wouldn't lie!

Mutinousdoug
2006-06-11, 20:03
Dropkick,
You probably don't know this but most of the rest of us westerners think of Montanans as being a little windy.
I'm not callin' your pa a lier, or nothin'.
I'm just sayin...
And I only carry a pistol so I can shoot myself if the bears don't submit to me bull-doggin them Bill Pickett style by bitin' their nose and flippin them over on their backs. Then, while you hold 'em and keep a-holt of their nose in your mouth, if you rub their belly with your foot (no spurs, though); it puts them asleep!
That's what the oldtimers around here say, anyway.