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blackdog
2005-02-03, 08:57
Klattermusen, a swedish outdoor gear company, now offers a chaps and kilt combination for rain protection.

http://www.klattermusen.se/km_produkter/mckilt.asp

I think the concept could be beneficial for ultralighters too. It would be easier to make and would probably be lighter than a zip-leg pant. I guess it's almost native to you americans, since both "cowboys and indians" use it one way or the other.

The c&k concept could add some extra laughs at camp-time too...

Sgathak
2005-02-03, 09:11
Being of Irish and Scottish decent as well as a dash of Cherokee (who pre-colombian era wore a kilt like garment for formal occasions), kilts are kinda in my blood. Ill be getting married in a kilt this Sept, and Ive had my eye on Utilikilts (kilts with cargo pockets) for a while. They used to offer a kilt made from Epic. It had removable cargo pockets and stuffed into its own back pocket. Kinda cool, but at $200, no wonder they quit making them!

Ive heard some ultralighters are wearing "walking kilt" weight versions (usually under 4yards) from a few companies. Sportkilts being a big one so I hear.... but I have only seen one person wearing a sportkilt product, and he was most definatly NOT a backpacker.

Ive actually been using a variation on "Colin's Kilt" as rain gear for a while now.... Just a trash bag, cut in half, with the tie straps to go around the waist. Not too shabby, but theres room for improvement. I considered a Silnylon version. Ive also considered an Epic nylon cagoule... serves the same function, and doesnt require carrying two items, a rain kilt and a rain jacket.

As for the legs, we Scotsmen go barelegged as often as possible.... though when the weather gets too bad, the answer was to wear "moggens"... basically, gaiters.

blackdog
2005-02-03, 10:46
Sgathak, a guy got married wearing a kilt at the ice hotel in Jukkasjärvi last year. The inside temperature of the chapel never goes higher than the freezing point. And as it's built from snow and ice it has to be rebuilt every year.

http://www.icehotel.com/english/index2.htm

Two Speed
2005-02-03, 18:34
I'm going to go a little off subject . . .

Hiking primarily in the southeast, I keep coming back to a poncho for rain gear. Have tried to ol' poncho & gaiters routine, but have found that lacking. Weight was right, but after a while, I'd get wet from the knees down.

I've been toying with the idea of using a poncho and chaps, something like this:

http://www.moonbowgear.com/4clothingouterwear/NewClothing/raingear/rainchaps.html

with a silnylon poncho. Anyone here tried that, and if so, how'd it work out?

Major Slacker
2005-02-03, 20:25
I've been toying with the idea of using chaps with a silnylon poncho. Anyone here tried that, and if so, how'd it work out?
I used chaps and a poncho years ago (before silnylon), and they worked fine -- especially for unexpected, cold, wet weather. The chaps ventilated well enough and weighed very little. For 3-season hiking I now use a poncho and shorts -- the kind with zip-on legs. For nasty, cold and wet conditions I use a silnylon poncho over a nylon pullover and windpants, with a fleece layer under those. The pants and sleeves get wet, but I don't get cold. I sweat so much I would be wet under anything waterproof anyway.

Sgathak
2005-02-03, 20:41
Exped has been doing chaps with a poncho for years. Its a good idea. I dont like how the poncho flaps around in the wind, but theres probably not a better way to stay dry... silnylon gets the rain off, and the massive amounts of ventilation keeps the condensation away.

It weighs too much for sport hiking, but I keep a Russian "plasch palatka" poncho in my Jeep for emergency wet weather wear.... since this particular item is very multifunctional and doesnt come with instructions, I wrote up an english language users guide for it. One of the uses I found is that you can make it into a "poncho with legs". Heres the users guide if your interested. "Russian Poncho Users Guide" (http://www.shadowslight.com/reviews/Basha.pdf) - Ive mentioned this item to Patrick Smith and might bring it by his shop to see if theres any interest in making an ultralight Silnylon version......... if you would like to see something like this in silnylon, let me know, so I can pass on the interest to Pat.

Two Speed
2005-02-04, 18:22
Sgathak

Interesting link; hadn't seen anything like that before, never heard of a "basha" before, and I've got to give the Russians credit for the adaptability of that piece of equipment. Not knowing any better, I suspect that they've been working on that item for a while. The PDF does give me quite a bit of fuel for thought, and I have saved it for future reference.

I'd be interested in a silnylon version, but the ol' camping budget is shot for the near future, so I hate to egg someone on to produce a new item when I don't have the funds available to purchase. I'm in the mode of working on new ideas more than making immediate purchases, if you follow.

Out of sheer curiousity, who is Patrick Smith, and does he have a website?

Sgathak
2005-02-04, 18:39
Basha is just one more way to say "field shelter"... Its a Brit word. Americans usually call it a "hootch" but that word never really stuck in my head.

The original plasch palatka was... probably WW1 issue. You can see it in use in the Movie "Enemy at the Gates"... Jude Law wears one. This version is obviously a bit updated. The original had most of the same uses, but not quite as "elegant", and being made from 10oz waxed cotton............

Patrick Smith is the founder of MountainSmith. He sold MountainSmith to form Kifaru. Kifaru is more for hunters and soldiers, but Im a bit of both on that count, and Kifaru makes some amazing stuff with SilNylon... Anyway, Kifarus headquaters is just down the street from me, and MountainSmith is about 15minutes away.

Major Slacker
2005-02-04, 19:01
I keep a Russian "plasch palatka" poncho in my Jeep... I wrote up an english language users guide for it. ...if you would like to see something like this in silnylon, let me know.
Thanks for the PDF. I would like to see (or make) something like it in silnylon. Actually, I would really like to get my hands on one or at least see a schematic of the thing. The information in the PDF was great, but I could not get my head wrapped around all the tabs, slots, snaps, buttons, drawstrings, flaps and such.

Sgathak
2005-02-04, 19:23
I could not get my head wrapped around all the tabs, slots, snaps, buttons, drawstrings, flaps and such.

Its not much easier in person.

I consider myself fairly proficent at figureing out junk like this, and my brain simply could NOT figure out how to make this heap of nylon be anything other than a tarp for ohhhhh.... an hour! There are still some things that have me kind of confused on it. I figure they are mostly for use when youve got a bunch of them being used together? I dunno...

Ill try and whip up a line drawing JPEG to show the basics.

Sgathak
2005-02-05, 00:31
Heres a rough MSPaint drawing

http://shadowslight.com/reviews/BashaLineDrawing.JPG

Any SilNylon variations will be just as useful, far less confusing.... probably just velcro or something... unless any of you guys have other ideas?

Sgathak
2005-02-06, 11:33
Thought you might enjoy this.....

Ultralight AT Hiker in a kilt (kilt made from the same guy I plan to purchase my wedding kilt from... and see about having him make a lighter weight "trail kilt" as well)

http://bearkilts.com/haiku/haiku.html

blackdog
2005-02-06, 16:13
That is so cool, in more ways than one... ;)

I have one question, though. Does a kilt have some folds at the side or something to give it extra width for walking without flapping too much in the wind? The klättermusen "kilt" is more like a wrap-around skirt, but the overlap gives it that extra width.

Sgathak
2005-02-06, 16:49
A kilt is pleated across the back, and doubled over across the front. A "classic" kilt has about 8 yards of wool! In about 10-14oz weight!

The version Im having made for the wedding is 4 yards of material, and the "hiking kilt" will be more like 2.5-3 yards in a 8oz weight. (Im hoping to have it around 10-12 oz. "Haiku" lists his kilt at 15oz)

I designed - ok modified a design - for a Cagoule to be made with Epic Nylon (if I can find a seller - I heard Feathered friends will sell bulk materials?) with length long enough to hit the knees... that should cover from head to the bottom hem. But, the kilt material will be Poly Viscose so even if it gets wet it shouldnt matter too much.... just add some SilNylon gaiters and I should be good down for all but deep winter hikes.

blackdog
2005-02-06, 17:15
What cagoule pattern did you modify? Been thinking about ordering the Rain Shed's pattern, but it seems small.

http://www.therainshed.com/

Sgathak
2005-02-06, 17:43
I assume you mean this one?

http://www.therainshed.com/images/patterns/rs/rs280.jpg

If so, this is the base I used. A trial run I made (and gave away since it was made of "just coated nylon" - stupid stupid stupid!) fit me well enough Im doing it again! Im 5'9" and weigh 175lbs... I made a large and I had room to move freely. The modifications come from adding in a draw string at the waist, getting rid of the chest pocket, and dropping the bottom down to knee length. Also going with Griptease cord rather than elastic band at the wrists.

IIRC, the original weighed roughly 12oz, made with 1.9oz ripstop. It had a chest pocket and big cord locks for use with gloves.... Im thinking that the new version will weigh about 10oz with tiny cord locks and griptease.

Lanthar
2005-02-07, 02:07
one of these (http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/tips/sources.asp) sources should sell EPIC

Sgathak
2005-02-07, 02:36
Only one sells Epic so far as I can tell. Butt loads of Pertex out there though...

The one seller is OWF, and its 2.4oz a square yard :( :bawling: :(

blackdog
2005-02-07, 07:58
That's the pattern, yes. Do you think it would be big enough for a guy 8'3" and less fit? And why are you going to use epic? Does it breathe better than pertex?

quick conversions:
from ounces per square yard to grams per square meter:
multiply with 34
from european to american:
divide with 34

(that is how my wife does it...)

Sgathak
2005-02-07, 13:58
Im sorry.... EIGHT FOOT 2 inches? Thats almost 2.5 meters! Ummm.... No, I dont think that pattern will fit you.... not without some serious tweeking... but you could write to the company and ask if they have a pattern for a larger version.

As for Epic vs Pertex.... Im basically convinced that Epic Nylon beats Pertex in nearly every catagory. Epic uses silcon encapsulated threads so that they cannot absorb liquid. The fabric is windproof, highly water resistant, and it is more abrasion resistant than other nylons of similar weights, but it is still very breathable. The silicone encapsulation makes it so that Epic does not require a DWR coating, can be washed repeatedly without worry that some coating will "wash off" and in fact, if it does start to wet through, toss it in the drier for a few minutes and it will regain its original water-resistance. Pertex works in an entirely different way. Its generally coated with a DWR to keep it as dry as possible, but if it does wet through, its weave structure "spreads out" the moisture through capillary action so that it dries out faster... but as soon as the DWR is washed out, you either have to hit it with some revive-X or youve basically just got a some quick drying nylon.

blackdog
2005-02-07, 14:05
I'm 6'3" (187cm). damn typo. :)

I tried gore-tex because it would keep me dry. I got wet from the inside instead. But when I heard of the pertex/microfleece combination I decided to try it. The pertex does allow some moisture beneath the surface, but the wicking action makes sure the skin stays dry. So it's basically a good-enough solution that I can wear almost all the time. And it doesn't cost too much either.

Sgathak
2005-02-07, 14:38
Ive heard that the Pertex/Fleece combo was current shell of choice in Europe lately....

As for your 2 foot drop in height... yeah, the pattern would probably fit. You might want to make a trial run out of cheap cotton fabric to test for fit, and adjust accordingly, but you should be OK.

blackdog
2005-02-07, 15:32
Ive heard that the Pertex/Fleece combo was current shell of choice in Europe lately....
I really don't know if it is. People up here are strictly gore-tex because it has the highest "status" (AKA the outdoor bling-bling syndrome). They're sceptic about my choice of garments, but that's their problem. It was hard to believe, even for me. It works with other materials as well. try it with any polyester or nylon that breathes. Fleece, wicking underwear and helly-hansen type synthetic fur (pile?) all work. But the fleece/pertex combination is way better than the average.

This is the web page that put the strange idea into my head:
http://www.monmouth.com/~mconnick/clothes.htm


Yeah, the pattern would probably fit.
OK, time to order stuff over the net again. I wanted to use Thru-hiker's Liberty Rigde pattern, but I couldn't get it without the DWR-ripstop. Time will tell if the cagoule pattern is as good.

Sgathak
2005-02-07, 18:31
Well, I guess the Liberty Ridges "claim to fame" is its fit, right? Its supposed to be really well tailored?

This Cagoule isnt. Its comfortable as hell, but its not fitted at all. Its mostly just "sized" and thats about where it ends.... thats another reason Im wanting to make another one, It will fit in VERY VERY nicely with another project Ive got going... an ultra convertable vest/coat/sleeping bag

Major Slacker
2005-02-07, 18:55
It works with other materials as well. try it with any polyester or nylon that breathes. Fleece, wicking underwear and helly-hansen type synthetic fur (pile?) all work. But the fleece/pertex combination is way better than the average.

This is the web page that put the strange idea into my head:
http://www.monmouth.com/~mconnick/clothes.htm

That's the web page I was looking for to post with my earlier 2 cents worth.

Not so strange. It works for me, anyway. I'm using -- from the inside out -- a silk base layer (Campmor or maybe Land's End), wicking shirt (Wally World), fleece (Campmor), breathable nylon anorak (Old Navy) and windpants (Nike/Goodwill). I couldn't afford the Pertex/fleece combination and wanted the versatility of separate layers anyway. Oh, and a silnylon poncho over all, if needed.

Major Slacker
2005-02-07, 19:00
Heres a rough MSPaint drawing
That (the basha drawing) helps a lot. I've downloaded the image to study in detail later.

Major Slacker
2005-02-07, 19:06
... an ultra convertable vest/coat/sleeping bag
I'm thinking along the same lines, plus a bivy/tent/pack kind of thing.

Sgathak
2005-02-08, 15:52
I'm thinking along the same lines, plus a bivy/tent/pack kind of thing.

Have you figured out any reasonable way to make the jacket light enough for common jacket type use, and still be warm enough to act as a sleeping bag body?

Im curious to know how your planning a pack that turns into a tent...

Major Slacker
2005-02-08, 18:09
Have you figured out any reasonable way to make the jacket light enough for common jacket type use, and still be warm enough to act as a sleeping bag body?
Not exactly. I'm running down two rabbit trails:
1. a snow-suit kind of thing with sleeves and legs that zip off completely or partially and stuff into strategically placed pockets, and/or
2. a poncho & liner (basha) kind of thing sized, shaped and with fasteners strategically placed to allow for arms and legs. Imagine a giant flying squirrel costume minus the tail. (Maybe there's a function for the tail.)

I've mainly been focusing on eliminating redundancy and thinking the insulating layer would come off at some point. The suit could stuff into the back panel of a vest, but a sleeping bag's worth of insulation and fabric would make a pretty big lump on your back. I see Quasimodo. Arrrr, yes master.

Im curious to know how your planning a pack that turns into a tent...
Basically, the foot of the tent is like a bivy with a suspension system on the bottom or with lash points for attaching a suspension system. Sleeping bag, pad, the rest of the tent, etc., stuff down into the foot of the tent. A drawstring at the appropriate place closes it up. A separate food bag covers the top, attached by a lash point above the shoulder harness and adjustable straps that clip into buckles near the bottom. I'm also thinking zipper access and/or side pockets -- mesh inside -- that could be accessed from inside and out.

Sgathak
2005-02-08, 19:17
Not exactly. I'm running down two rabbit trails:
1. a snow-suit kind of thing with sleeves and legs that zip off completely or partially and stuff into strategically placed pockets, and/or
2. a poncho & liner (basha) kind of thing sized, shaped and with fasteners strategically placed to allow for arms and legs. Imagine a giant flying squirrel costume minus the tail. (Maybe there's a function for the tail.)

Looks like were coming at this from different spots....

My basic idea is to make a pullover vest, with zip off sleeves and hood, and a zip off "elephant foot", probably with a cinchable foot so that it can be worn around camp as well...

Ideally, the vest/sleeves/hood would be made out of a 1.1oz fiber, maybe Pertex Microlight... the elephant foot out of Epic, and the cagoule of Epic goes over the pertex jacket... with about 10-12in of overlap. That should seal out the weather well enough(?)

Major Slacker
2005-02-08, 19:26
My basic idea is to make a pullover vest, with zip off sleeves and hood, and a zip off "elephant foot", probably with a cinchable foot so that it can be worn around camp as well...

Ideally, the vest/sleeves/hood would be made out of a 1.1oz fiber, maybe Pertex Microlight... the elephant foot out of Epic, and the cagoule of Epic goes over the pertex jacket... with about 10-12in of overlap. That should seal out the weather well enough(?)
So, would the sleeping bag function be for fair weather by itself and maybe as an inner bag for colder weather?

Sgathak
2005-02-08, 19:30
Yup! Thats the plan.

I figure Im already carrying a jacket of some sort, even in summer, why not put it to use?

Wild Things (http://www.wildthingsgear.com) has a similar concept with their Half Bag and EP Jacket.... but the EP is a little too heavy for summer use, their other jacket is too light... and thats the problem Im hitting. How do I keep the jacket light, but get enough insulation to make it comfortable as a sleeper?

Major Slacker
2005-02-08, 19:59
I was imagining something more like the Nunatak Raku, but that would be overkill for your needs.
www.nunatakusa.com/Sleeping_Bag_Raku.htm

Sgathak
2005-02-08, 21:02
Well... The Raku was one of my inspirations. Another was the Exped Wallcreeper PL (http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/b43HomePageE?openframeset) and the feathered Friends Rock Wren (http://www.featheredfriends.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=82&CatId=1&ProductName=Rock%20Wren) - plus, throw in the WildThings Half Bag and youll start to get my drift.

Doing some calculations, I may be able to get away with a heavier *vest* body so long as I keep the sleeves at a reasonable weight. By tucking the sleeves in, I can functionally double the insulation at that area when its time to sleep.

Hmmmmmmm

Sgathak
2005-02-08, 21:09
the FF Vireo (http://www.featheredfriends.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=78&CatId=1&ProductName=Vireo) and the Hilleberg Bivanorak (http://www.hilleberg.com/Catalog/bivanorak_926342.htm) were also involved in this idea.

Major Slacker
2005-02-09, 17:20
Looks to me like the Bivanorak (should be Bivcagoule) made out of a softshell fabric would come the closest to what you want. You wouldn't need it so big in the back, though.

Thanks for the links. They've got me thinking again, and that could be trouble. BTW, you left out the Packa. ;)

I stumbled across the removable sleeve posts, and they got me thinking. If 'pit vents were sized right you could pull your arms out of the sleeves through the vents and roll the sleeves to the shoulders to make a vest. Tabs at the shoulders could hold the sleeves, or like you said, you could tuck the sleeves in at the sides for added insulation.

Let me know how you do with it.

Sgathak
2005-02-09, 21:33
I decided to go with Pertex Equalibrium over Epic... They come in the same weight, Endurance is just as windproof and more waterproof (according to Nunatak) and I could also go with other pertex variants for lighter weight items (I dont need 1.9oz fabric for lining an insulated jacket, do it? nope!) Plus, I can actually find a SELLER of Pertex!

With regards to a SilNylon "basha" poncho.... not going to happen until at LEAST this summer, if at all :( - unless I learn how to sew silnylon myself that is.

Lanthar
2005-02-10, 10:59
I stumbled across the removable sleeve posts, and they got me thinking. If 'pit vents were sized right you could pull your arms out of the sleeves through the vents and roll the sleeves to the shoulders to make a vest. Tabs at the shoulders could hold the sleeves, or like you said, you could tuck the sleeves in at the sides for added insulation.

Let me know how you do with it.

:D not bad when you can make nothing (aka a hole) serve dual purpose... that's like the ultimate in ultralight philosphy :D

Sgathak
2005-02-18, 03:04
ARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

I contacted Nextec as it appears they are the only "legal" sellers of epic. Yes, some sellers purchase rolls and sell off excess stock, but Nextec does not sell through distributors.... they are a direct sales organization.

Ok

fine

No biggie

Oh, whats this? minimum order is 750 yards? At $7.00 a yard? Really? Well HELL!

Major Slacker
2005-02-18, 06:44
ARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
I feel your pain.

No, wait, it's just my neck again. Sorry.

Sgathak
2005-03-09, 16:34
I prototyped my cagoule... not the right materials (not epic or pertex, and heavier than speced), but its just a prototype anyway. Reaches to just a hair below the knees, and weighs only 9oz!

Major Slacker
2005-03-10, 14:41
What material did you use?
Got photos?

Fox
2005-04-18, 17:03
www.utilikilts.com They're awesome. My husband has one of the originals in jungle camo, a workman's in black and a 'mocker'... The original is still his favorite, made of summer-weight BDU fabric... He says it fits almost all weather, and if it gets cold, he just puts on longjohns...

Lanthar
2005-04-18, 17:30
www.utilikilts.com They're awesome. My husband has one of the originals in jungle camo, a workman's in black and a 'mocker'... The original is still his favorite, made of summer-weight BDU fabric... He says it fits almost all weather, and if it gets cold, he just puts on longjohns...

I've been looking at those... not sure if I want the derisive looks i'm likely to get from my wife