PDA

View Full Version : Rock, what do you think of this?



brian
2005-03-29, 10:49
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62117&item=5177967657&rd=1

What do you think of the claims this guy makes? About emissivity:

"I have adjusted theEMISSIVITY of all my stoves with a special process and I am proud to report they are now more emissive than any other stove on ebay --what ever that means????"


What? His stoves look nice, but, what does anything he talks about have to do anything with stove performance? I might purchase one and test it against my stoves.


Brian
www.outdoorequipmentsupplier.com

jimtanker
2005-03-29, 11:12
"Emissive" - Having the power or tendency to emit matter or energy; emitting

Hog On Ice
2005-03-29, 12:06
at least the guy does not have an over inflated idea of what he can charge for his product

as for the stove - well I suspect that the original cat stove would beat the "emissivity" of that stove - the cat is a regular torch of a stove

peter_pan
2005-03-29, 12:09
Pretty interesting site....very emissive.

Pan

SGT Rock
2005-03-29, 14:10
I've traded some e-mails with him. He is a nice guy. I am not sure his stoves are as efficient as he thinks, but we are working out a trade so we can look at each others stove.

blackdog
2005-03-29, 15:15
The first time I understood what Top was trying to do with his stoves, I was simply amazed. Here was an American creating something that didn't follow the usual pattern of "the more fuel it burns per second, the better". Instead he strived for maximum fuel efficiency.

The word "emissive" hints at a completely different direction. ...a lesser one, IMHO, but one that'll probably put sparkles on that guys bank account. "Emissivity" will surely impress the Joe UnCunnings out there.

The miniBull doesn't impress me, though. The size may be mini, but there certainly is a lot of bull on that web page... :)

I'd go for an Ion instead.

SGT Rock
2005-03-29, 21:49
The first time I understood what Top was trying to do with his stoves, I was simply amazed. Here was an American creating something that didn't follow the usual pattern of "the more fuel it burns per second, the better". Instead he strived for maximum fuel efficiency.

The word "emissive" hints at a completely different direction. ...a lesser one, IMHO, but one that'll probably put sparkles on that guys bank account. "Emissivity" will surely impress the Joe UnCunnings out there.

The miniBull doesn't impress me, though. The size may be mini, but there certainly is a lot of bull on that web page... :)

I'd go for an Ion instead.

Thanks Black Dog, I appriciate the comments. I feel it is something worth doing and I feel there are some others Americans out there that think the same way. But that leads me to what I have found since I started showing the stove off and talking about it: the main concern with most hikers seems to be speed. :turtle:

I have found that my stove heats water above 200F and maintains that temperature for about 3 - 5 minutes. To me this is like getting a stove that boils and simmers every time it cooks. And it does it on a small amount of fuel. But I keep getting told "yea, but mine will boil water in 3 minutes", or "that takes too long, I want to eat fast". Of course the stove system adds 4-16 ounces of pack weight over mine, but that seems acceptable to people that want a backpacker's microwave of a stove. I actually think if I wanted to sell a lot of stoves an make money I would make a stove that boils water in 2:30 regardless of fuel consumption or weight because that would make most hikers happy. I actually thought about making another stove called something like "Backpackers Atomic Fireball!" because that would probably draw more attention than the simple Ion stove. :confused:

I ain't in it to make money though. I just want to have fun :D

Maybe this coming weekend I'll make the Atomic Fireball and sell it on the site LOL. So the hiker can choose between weight or speed.

Everyone follow the ===> :sheep:

GregH
2005-03-29, 22:22
Atomic Fireball -
You could use a 1 gallon container with a 1/2" nozzle. You know, something subtle! :rolleyes:

Lanthar
2005-03-30, 00:03
emissivity (http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=emissivity&action=Search+OMD)

<physics> The giving off of heat rays; a perfect black body has an emissivity of 1, a highly polished metallic surface may have an emissivity as low as 0.02.

:hmmmm: In other words he painted the thing black... :stupid:

It was probably his word of the day...

That having been said, it looks like pretty nice quality, seems like whatever he is talking about on the "spinning it on a lathe to crimp"

Actually all his stoves (http://www.minibulldesign.com/fs2.htm) look pretty good quality

KLeth
2005-03-30, 02:03
I have found that my stove heats water above 200F and maintains that temperature for about 3 - 5 minutes. To me this is like getting a stove that boils and simmers every time it cooks. And it does it on a small amount of fuel. But I keep getting told "yea, but mine will boil water in 3 minutes", or "that takes too long, I want to eat fast".

We don't use alcohol burners, instead we use canister due to speed but not at least due to fuel comsumption and the abillity to get a good simmer. Unfortunately the simmer part is the hardest to achieve . . . . . .

Our hikes are normally planned on the assumption of no re-supply during the hike, therefore we want to keep fuel compsumption to a minimum so we don't have to carry a jerrycan/11kg canister if we want to get hot drinks/soup whenever we want. Mostly I don't mind waiting for my food or drink while enjoying the great outdoors, it's all a part of the expirience ! :smile:

I'm no ultralite, as I always write, but what's the point of cutting down your toothbrush and trimming your shoelaces if you have to carry 200g extra fuel due to impatience ? :confused:

We've used the Trangia alcohol burner when we started hiking, but if I was to go back to alcohol burning stoves I would definitely go for the ION for both performance and fuel consumption ! :dito:

Fireball - Could involve something with a radial fan, copper pipes and white phosphor for pre-heat. :dancing2: And a truck for fuel :rolleyes:

Major Slacker
2005-03-30, 06:57
Maybe this coming weekend I'll make the Atomic Fireball and sell it on the site LOL. So the hiker can choose between weight or speed.Among the stoves I've set aside for the ultralight stove museum that I hope someone creates someday I've got a monster I created during my early experiments with the Pepsi-G. It fires a ring of six-inch jet flames, boils water in no time, heats pot stands to glowing red, burns right through windscreens and sucks alcohol like a demon. I've been calling it "The Beast from Hell", but "Atomic Fireball" is good.

youngblood
2005-03-30, 07:23
:hmmmm: In other words he painted the thing black... :stupid:

It was probably his word of the day...

That having been said, it looks like pretty nice quality, seems like whatever he is talking about on the "spinning it on a lathe to crimp"

Actually all his stoves (http://www.minibulldesign.com/fs2.htm) look pretty good quality
Yep, I think that is all it means... that he painted it black... but with the best kind of black paint-- flat black high temperature.

That will make the burner warmer which will make it put out more flames. I don't know that is a good thing, but I suspect that means you can't use it with a thermally efficient windscreen (hey, I like that term :biggrin: ) without it trying to go into something resembling a thermal runaway mode. The burner is only a part of a stove system-- what we need is a practical and efficient stove system.

Sarge, what do you think of the term 'thermally efficient windscreen' when applied to these small lightweight alcohol stoves?

Youngblood

SGT Rock
2005-03-30, 09:21
Yep, I think that is all it means... that he painted it black... but with the best kind of black paint-- flat black high temperature.

That will make the burner warmer which will make it put out more flames. I don't know that is a good thing, but I suspect that means you can't use it with a thermally efficient windscreen (hey, I like that term :biggrin: ) without it trying to go into something resembling a thermal runaway mode. The burner is only a part of a stove system-- what we need is a practical and efficient stove system.

Sarge, what do you think of the term 'thermally efficient windscreen' when applied to these small lightweight alcohol stoves?

Youngblood

I think of a windscreen that enhances the performance of the stove, or am I thinking too simple here. I think we all recognize that part of any truly effective stove system is a good windscreen, especially when you talk alcohol since the general output can be so affected by even a light wind. MSR on their stoves has recognized this, and the JetBoil, makes use of an overbuilt windscreen known as the Flux Ring. I am glad I was convinced to include windscreens in my Ion stoves.

The Atomic Fireball system should probably be an entire system like some of the Trangia or the JetBoil since that would mean a fully integrated system for peak performance. I should make a non-collapsible stand that is an integrated stand and windscreen that nests to the outside of a .9L Evernew titanium pot with a super-burner for the stove. And since Titanium is the fashion metal, I'll make the whole thing from titanium. It will probably cost $80, but they will probably eat it up with a silver spoon :burnout:

youngblood
2005-03-30, 11:38
I wasn't thinking of something as sophisticated as the JetBoil, I was thinking simplier... like a fully wrapped wind screen with proper spacing and air intakes versus a windscreen that is basically solid and does not enclose the pot enough to increase stove efficiency. I believe some of the 'hot' alcohol stove burners will have a thermal runaway tendency when used with a fully wrapped wind screen with proper spacing and air intakes.

Youngblood

Major Slacker
2005-03-30, 15:09
I was thinking simplier... like a fully wrapped wind screen with proper spacing and air intakes…That's what I'm using now, but something heat resistant/reflective that absorbs no heat would be better -- more thermally efficient.

I experimented with an accordion-fold aluminum windscreen that fit snug against the pot but allowed airflow through triangular channels around the outside. I expected it to act like an MSR heat exchanger and transfer heat to the pot, but it performed worse than a simple round windscreen. My theory is it dissipated heat to the air rather than transfer it to the pot.

After that I tried a regular windscreen and a pot with fluted/corrugated sides thinking more surface area in contact with the water would transfer heat better, but that didn't work any better than a smooth sided pot. :(

Lanthar
2005-03-30, 15:35
I should make a non-collapsible stand that is an integrated stand and windscreen that nests to the outside of a .9L Evernew titanium pot with a super-burner for the stove. And since Titanium is the fashion metal, I'll make the whole thing from titanium. It will probably cost $80, but they will probably eat it up with a silver spoon :burnout:

that would certainly look hella cool...

SGT Rock
2005-04-01, 02:10
A couple of years back I tried making an accordion like windscreen/heat exchanger similar to the MSR system, I came to the conclusion that the insignificant advantage it gave was not worth the extra weight. What was more important was just tuning the stove/windscreen/stand/pot system which could give about the same improvement in performance while never adding extra weight.

GregH
2005-04-01, 14:59
...thermal runaway ...

Youngblood

For those of us who haven't studied thermodynamics and advanced heat transfer parametrics would you please provide a simplistic explanation of thermal runaway ?

Tanks.

D'oh! I mean, thanks. :turtle:

youngblood
2005-04-01, 17:00
For those of us who haven't studied thermodynamics and advanced heat transfer parametrics would you please provide a simplistic explanation of thermal runaway ?

Tanks.

D'oh! I mean, thanks. :turtle:Thermal runaway means that getting hot makes it get even hotter until it destroys itself from overheating. This is in comparison to a system that doesn't destroy itself from its own heat, it reaches a stable point below destruction where it doesn't get any hotter.

One of the statements I made was this: "I believe some of the 'hot' alcohol stove burners will have a thermal runaway tendency when used with a fully wrapped wind screen with proper spacing and air intakes."

These relative simple alcohol burners contain their own fuel reservoir and the flames are from burning of the vaporizated alcohol in the burner/fuel reservoir. The rate at which the liquid alcohol vaporizes is a function of its temperature; the hotter it gets the faster it vaporizes. When you loosely apply a windscreen it does little more than keep the wind from disturbing the flame. When you apply what I refered to as a thermally efficient windscreen you not only keep the wind from disturbing the flame you also utilize some of the heat that would have otherwise been lost. With the simple alcohol stoves (I'm not talking about a full blown Trangia stove with the two piece pot stand/windscreen here.) this extra heat is applied to the burner/fuel reservoir as well as the cooking pot. This causes the burner to burn hotter and a 'hot' alcohol stove will burn too hot with this extra efficiency and will likely be a hazard to use or even self destruct; while a 'cooler' alcohol burner with burn hotter, but hopefully not too hot. Things can be done to control this... I think I saw one design where they contolled the intake air to control the burn rate (the vaporized alcohol needs the oxygen in air to burn) but they are basically taking the 'hot' out of the 'hot' alcohol burner. But it seems to me the most prudent thing would be to not use a 'hot' alcohol burner in the first place and to just use a more fuel efficient stove system with a 'cooler' alcohol burner and a thermally efficient windscreen because in the long run you will use less fuel more safely and cook your meals in about the same time. This is basically the approach the Jet Boil stove uses but by adding heat exchangers, an insulated wind screen and other things I'm probably not aware of.

Sarge, did I explaing that right?

Youngblood

GregH
2005-04-01, 21:07
That was superb, Youngblood. Thanks.

BTW, SGT would probably want to design thermal runaway into his Atomic Fireball!

Major Slacker
2005-04-01, 22:25
A couple of years back I tried making an accordion like windscreen/heat exchanger similar to the MSR system, I came to the conclusion that the insignificant advantage it gave was not worth the extra weight. What was more important was just tuning the stove/windscreen/stand/pot system which could give about the same improvement in performance while never adding extra weight.
I'd say you've done a helluva job, too.

But, you know? I just can't seem to leave it alone. There's always this nagging question, "Would it work better if I tried it like…?" Then I try it and end up back where I am, except those two or three times when it really did work better. Dang. It's like some kind of sickness.

brian
2005-04-01, 23:20
Thermal runaway means that getting hot makes it get even hotter until it destroys itself from overheating. This is in comparison to a system that doesn't destroy itself from its own heat, it reaches a stable point below destruction where it doesn't get any hotter.

I can only imagine the site of a stove melting under the intense heat of its own flame. It just seems like the flame would eventually go out from lack of oxygen, or the air rushing in would help to cool down the aluminum, which naturally would not want to "keep the heat".

Anyway, I think I have come across a revolution in my simmering stove. So far my prototypes burn 1 fluid oz of denatured in 22 minutes, all from vapor (not just from liquid fuel buring off the bottom of the stove)! A super slow burning stove, no different from any other stoves I have made in the past, which would be perfect for slow cooking pasta, even rice! More to come ASAP...

Brian
OES

Major Slacker
2005-04-02, 00:11
…It just seems like the flame would eventually go out from lack of oxygen, or the air rushing in would help to cool down the aluminum, which naturally would not want to "keep the heat"…
In my experience with runaway stoves usually one of three things happens:
1. The weird blue genie of the stove appears.
2. The stove shrivels up and goes away.
3. There's a whole lot of fire, then a whole lot of nothing.

This is what I'm guessing is going on with each:
1. There's not enough oxygen, so the fuel vapors go crawling around, looking for it.
2. There's way too much oxygen, fuel vapors and heat, so the stove burns up.
3. There's way too much oxygen, fuel vapors and heat, but it all goes up, up and away.

SGT Rock
2005-04-02, 10:48
I think you nailed it youngblood. But they don't always destroy themselves right away, but the heat they create is so over the top it is extremely wasteful. I could, for example, make a stove that starts off fairly low, but with enough feedback the fuel consumption goes up so fast that the flames completely envelope the stove and climb up the sides of the pot and burn off plastic handles while melting the windscreen. It would pump out a hell of a lot of heat that in turn makes it burn hotter, that in turn makes it pump out a hell of a lot more heat which in turn forces it to burn even hotter, etc etc. You get the idea.

GregH
2005-04-02, 11:47
...It would pump out a hell of a lot of heat that in turn makes it burn hotter, that in turn makes it pump out a hell of a lot more heat which in turn forces it to burn even hotter, etc etc. You get the idea.

...And, voila, the Atomic Fireball! :biggrin:

Lanthar
2005-04-02, 14:59
That was superb, Youngblood. Thanks.

BTW, SGT would probably want to design thermal runaway into his Atomic Fireball!

Absolutely

SGT Rock
2005-04-02, 16:02
I just made the first Atomic Fireball prototype with an aluminum flashing windscreen/stand. 1/2 ounce of alcohol melted the screen/stand before I ever reached boil. I might have gotten there, but having the pot sitting right on the stove putting out the flame tends to reduce performance LOL.

SGT Rock
2005-04-03, 11:42
I made a new combination windscreen and stove stand from titanium last night. The stand/screen is 55 grams and is made to work with the Evernew 0.9L pot or any pot that is 5.5" diameter. Now to turn the stove into an even bigger fireball :D

tinny2
2005-04-03, 15:30
The statement about emissivity was meant as a JOKE to push fun at another ebayer who started using the word to make his stoves look good. I think everybody knows that anything black absorbs heat faster than things that are sanded shiny. And that a warm stove is a happy stove. This paint really has quite a small effect on the performance. The side burner design is where most of the heat comes from. This stove will boil 16 oz of water about as fast as any Stove. And is priced to sell. I can sell low because THEY ARE MADE BY MACHINE 50 TO A TIME. And not wittled out by hand. With a jacknife and a nail. They also are crimped by machine making them super strong and simple to build. The other builder who started the EMISSIVITY thing is item number -- 5179704614-- on ebay and a little funny to read. SORRY for any mixup or misunderstanding but it was ment as humor. Go to --www.minibulldesign.com and read the blogs then you will understand. oh and watch the videos.

blackdog
2005-04-03, 16:13
Tinny, you really shouldn't underestimate the jackknife and nail approach. It's a good way to improve stove designs. A logical question is thus: Do you sell blanks for the developers of this place to experiment with?

Top, maybe a combination of ion ideas and bull construction might be something to think about for the nonDIYers out there?

Open development and flexible manufacturing can walk hand in hand. It's a win-win situation. The only thing still in the way is fear of treading that path.

Iceman
2005-04-03, 17:27
Tinny, angry and arrogant, well... you have the right to be, not all comments here are warm and fuzzy. But you must remember the purpose of this forum. As far as I have seen, folks here challenge and second guess each other daily. Your attitude that you have tried everything, so we should not, is the problem. I haven't tried building a side burner yet. So I guess I will let your experience be the final word. Great. I guess no one will ever improve on your design!? Yours is the best, no matter what. Period. End of argument.
Everyone should use your stove every single time they go hiking, everywhere, always, forever. Nothing is better than yours.

I would bet, that there is some deranged individual out there who has created in his garage or on his kitchen counter, a far better stove than you, or me, or (gulp) Top.

If you cannot handle the heat, back away, that's a fact.

Major Slacker
2005-04-03, 18:14
…if you want to split hairs the STEALTH unpainted only weighs 0.23 0z which makes it the worlds lightest stove hands down…Have you checked out the 2 gram (0.07 oz.) Ion alternative?
http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1107
I claim credit for the pot stand (which contributes just about all of the weight), but full credit for the stove goes to Sgt. Rock. I just used the thinnest aluminum I could find to make it. And, yeah, I realize you probably meant something like the world's lightest stove commercially available, or maybe something like the world's lightest stove that anyone would take seriously. ;)
…No potstand needed set pot directly on stove.Despite the minimal weight of the Orion, I have to admit I would rather not fool with a separate pot stand -- especially when it means having to use a heavier pot. I've not yet developed the 2 gram pot stand that will support my beer can pot. Until I do I'll keep using the 6 gram Orion II (http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1054), which didn't have a name until just now. :D The total weight of the system is what really matters.
I have made at least 1000 of these stoves in every configuration imaginable…I should set out all my stuff and take a picture for you guys but it would just look like a big junk heap.Well, ya got me there, and I guess I can stop indexing the photo of all the different kinds of stoves I've made.
…I can't imagine anybody being such a gram weenie that they would want to save that small an amount of weight. I guess the question is how long are you willing to wait to save 1/2 oz of alcohol. For me the answer is NOT LONG…For me, the answer is also not long, but other questions would be: 1. How long is not long? 2. What's the hurry? 3. How many times on a trip would I save that 1/2 oz of alcohol?

Major Slacker
2005-04-03, 18:32
I made a new combination windscreen and stove stand from titanium last night. The stand/screen is 55 grams and is made to work with the Evernew 0.9L pot or any pot that is 5.5" diameter. Now to turn the stove into an even bigger fireball :DBased on what you've noted elsewhere about Ti being more an insulator than a conductor, I imagine the Ti windscreen is more thermally efficient -- much more heat resistant/reflective -- than the aluminum one.

I wonder what sense there is to making a cookpot out of the stuff, even if it's alloyed with aluminum.

P.S. I'll be watching the horizon after sundown for signs of success. You're gonna look kinda funny with no eyebrows.

SGT Rock
2005-04-03, 19:05
Dang, I go off to Lowe's to get some sheet steel for a prototype and a war gets started between Tinny and some members LOL. Ya'll just remember that we are all only talking about backpacking stoves here :D

Sgathak
2005-04-03, 19:10
Sideburners have a reduced fuel capacity vs top burners... I know, I know, you can boil a gallon of water in under 5 minutes with your perfectly unoriginal design - oh wait you painted yours up with grill paint, forgive me - so needing to increase fuel capacity for cold weather use (or by freak chance, you dont WANT to use a keg can) is utter nonsense and further research should stop?

Hmmm.... but then, while your arrogant (red)bull$h!t comments must make you feel alll warm and pretty, fact is, your design is highly specialized, unstable, and even if its the most efficent design on the planet, being an @$$hole wont sell you any stoves.

Even "wide based" pepsi can side burner stoves ala TinMan are noted as being unstable. Sure, some pots will *sit* on them with some sort of general stability, but they are tall and skinny. Its not exactly a high school science experiment to know that tall and skinny is more easily tipped than short and fat. Its also not a science experiment to know that short and fat pots are more stable, and make more direct contact with the flame (the hot part) than skinny pots with flames going up the sides. How so? Side flames release over 50% of their radiant energy to the non pot side, thats why gas stoves dont send flames leaping up the side of your T-Fal or KitchenAide crock pots at home. Its.... ineffecient.

Now, there *IS* more room for exploration and advancement.... and if you were at all honest, youd admit that.

Turk
2005-04-03, 19:52
.... zing!

Rage in a Cage
2005-04-03, 19:54
So Rock this stove is going to be really hot, should we start development of some Tungsten cookware? (melting point 3422 degrees C) :biggrin:

Lanthar
2005-04-03, 20:54
So Rock this stove is going to be really hot, should we start development of some Tungsten cookware? (melting point 3422 degrees C) :biggrin:

Unfortunately, Tungsten is also the densest metal that we current use. Of course, it's also hella hard to break. Would be expensive $$$, but definitely cool.

SGT Rock
2005-04-03, 21:28
New tangent in the design. I was working on the new screen and the Atomic Fireball stove, and thought to myself:

"Self, you could also burn wood in that thing, that would save fuel in that you would only need to use alcohol when you were unable to find some good wood."

So I tried it. The burn chamber was a little small, and I thought there was room for improvement. So being short of Ti, I went down to Lowe's and got some thick aluminum sheet which is about as strong and heavy but not as fixable as the Ti I am using (the ti is thinner) and did some figuring and cutting until I came out with a new version of the Atomic Fireball screen that weighs in at 85 grams (that is about 3 ounces) and just boiled water on a handful of sticks.

So ifn' I add me a 9 gram Atomic Fireball stove or an 8 gram Ion stove and a small fuel container, I can use it for wood unless I can't find it, then I can fire up the old fireball. That sounds very weight efficient. Hmmmm....

I may stop worrying about making the worlds fastest stove and concentrate on this new idea of a dual use system :confused:

Rage in a Cage
2005-04-03, 21:56
Lanthar I was also thinking that with the proper adapter to concentrate the heat down to a fine point the atomic fireball would serve a second purpose as a cutting torch. Muti-purpose!! You never know when you will suddenly need to whack some steel. You could whack steel, get paid and have someone else tote the tungsten tub.
He already has the burn time on the original ion down well enough to use it for a lantern, just add a globe. :rolleyes:
Or not.............. :biggrin:

Seriously Sgt. the combo alcohol/wood stove in a small version would be a nice thing to have. Burnable wood is rarely hard to find on the east coast even when it is raining. The down side is it is often a resin wood like pine that will soot up a pot pretty bad. I don't worry that much about soot since I usually hang my pot on the out side of my pack anyway. You know for that emergency coffee caffine rush. The main reason I have not gone to a wood stove is I have not been able to build one that was small enough and hot enough at the same time. Let us know how your test goes.

Major Slacker
2005-04-03, 22:23
Someday, years from now, a fresh faced kid will come up and say, "Hey, mister, you got some kinda nasty scars. Musta been a helluva fight." We'll give him a long look with our one good eye and say, "Kid, you ever hear of the Naught Five Stove Wars? Buy me a drink and hang onto your seat!"

SGT Rock
2005-04-03, 22:32
I don't see any reason for a stove war. :D

I am friends with Aaron from Brasslite, Tinman from Anti-Gravity, and don't see a reason not to be friends with Tinny. Y'all are just trying to stir stuff up.

Major Slacker
2005-04-03, 22:37
…with the proper adapter to concentrate the heat down to a fine point the atomic fireball would serve a second purpose as a cutting torch. Multi-purpose!!O.K., forget the flamethrower thing. This reminds me of a funky old alcohol cigarette lighter my mother's third husband gave me. He had two of them. The one I have was missing some parts, but he showed me how his worked: It lights pretty much like a regular old Zippo lighter with a wick and flint sparker, but there's a brass tube coming out of the fuel reservoir and over to the wick. The flame at the wick heats the brass tube until alcohol from the reservoir starts to vaporize and burn. Next thing you know, it's a little blowtorch. I'll have to see if I can find those parts.

Major Slacker
2005-04-03, 22:42
I don't see any reason for a stove war. :D

I am friends with Aaron from Brasslite, Tinman from Anti-Gravity, and don't see a reason not to be friends with Tinny. Y'all are just trying to stir stuff up.
I just came over to see how the fireball was going. Really.

GregH
2005-04-03, 22:56
...I know this is probably mean and arrogant but it is also TRUE. SORRY---Tinny--

True or not, why must you be mean and arrogant? Stop littering on the trail.

Sgathak
2005-04-03, 23:04
No, I read ya fine... And I knew what you were talking about. I also knew that you were, by your own words (see, I can read fine) being "mean and arrogant". We dont need that BS around here. BS that YOU brought....

OH, and you might consider reading yourself, I didnt say *limited* capacity, I saide *reduced* capacity... put a hole in the side of a stove and itll leak when the fuel hits that hole. Put a hole on the top of a similar stove, and you can fill higher than the first stove. Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote smartguy.

SGT Rock
2005-04-03, 23:04
Yes I would. I have been working on some ways to improve the stove's boil times without loosing the fuel efficiency. I haven't put them on the thermocouple yet to test it, but it appears to work without adding any weight to the system.

tinny2
2005-04-03, 23:52
I don't see any reason for a stove war. :D

I am friends with Aaron from Brasslite, Tinman from Anti-Gravity, and don't see a reason not to be friends with Tinny. Y'all are just trying to stir stuff up.

Thanks for that ---Do you still want to trade some stoves and I really want to try baking with one of your ION stoves and check out the titanium stand. I am friends with George Andrews also and have done some trading with him. At one time we almost merged into one stove business machine. my computer crashed bigtime a few days ago and i lost everything so i don't have your address anymore---Tinny

MalTheElder
2005-04-04, 00:11
This is getting too funny.

I have been around the 'Net since the '70's (really), and have seen (and sometimes been suckered into) lots of flame wars. This is a first, though---a flame war about (you knew this was coming, didn't you?) flames!

Thank you, I'll be here all week :laugh:

Seriously, comparing notes on y'all's stove properties, efficiencies and all that is great. Everybody wins that way. "My [insert item here] is better than your [insert item here]" crap serves none. What meets your needs is best---for you. My mileage may vary, and does.

All flames to me go to /dev/null
Mal

Sgathak
2005-04-04, 00:16
What are you, 4?

I went your site, and was unimpressed. Just as unimpressed as I am by your behavior on this site.

If you take a barrel (say 50 gallons - that means its a BIG one) and drill a hole at the 25 gallon line, I dont care how often you flip it, youll NEVER be able to hold more than 25 gallons inside. Now, if you drill at the top, you can fit a full 50 gallons inside cant you?

THAT was my point, not some ******** about YOUR stove design, but side burners in general... what a god ****** cry baby you are. Whats next? Are you going to tell me that your dad can beat up my dad? Maybe if you wernt such an ******* to start off with there wouldnt be any of this conversation to begin with?

Edit - I went to the Ebay site with your stove on it, and BPL which has them posted for compairison. The site you repeatedly spammed to this forum is a 404.

Sgathak
2005-04-04, 00:32
Well, Im a bit disturbed that you actually took pleasure in this discourse, and the way you seem to have had a good time with the thought that you have upset others. "Taking pleasure from others pain" is quite sick.

Iceman
2005-04-04, 00:50
Tiny, think how much better you would do in life, if you could just get along with others. I understand a few jabs were thrown here, but do you really need to perpetuate it with the "I know all" attitude? Besides, the last thing you want to do is PO Sgathak.

When it comes to word of mouth advertising, you set the standard. (Not the good standard.)

dixicritter
2005-04-04, 01:03
Now y'all don't make me throw out the "play nice" line. I will ya know... :secruity:

Rage in a Cage
2005-04-04, 01:15
Hey I agree with Mal the Elder, I came to see the new stove flames and found the thread on fire. I didn't fan the flames but I didn't throw any water on them either. I must be a cyber-pyromaniac. :biggrin: :flowers: :smokin:

dixicritter
2005-04-04, 01:22
Yeah you cyber-pyro's are dangerous.... ;) LOL

Sgathak
2005-04-04, 01:27
Hey! Who deleted Tinnys posts?

If it was admin, its a shame that others cant see him for what he is, it it was Tinny, its a shame that he is so spineless as to hide the words he is so embarrased of.

dixicritter
2005-04-04, 01:33
I assure you it was not admin that deleted those posts.

Sgathak
2005-04-04, 01:37
I never thought it was... just being diplomatic you see ;)

If *MY* posts wernt deleted.... :angel:

KLeth
2005-04-04, 01:41
My humble opinion is that a stove war could be bad but it could also be good.
The bad is that we'll never get anywhere by stating who thinks who' best due to speculation over design. The good is that it could be great to see a line-up of all the "homemade" stoves competing against each other.

I know what features I value, so I would find it really cool to see them competing against each other on performance, fuel effiency and my personal fave SIMMER :smile: We might all learn something usefull . .

I'm sure that the minibulldesign.com offers some wellmade and well designed stoves . . . probably equal to the ION and the BRASSLITE depending on what features the individual hiker values.

Wonder if some of the flaming and hard words are due to old fashion loyalty and high self esteem :smile:

Sgathak
2005-04-04, 01:51
No loyalty issue here... I wouldnt have said one word were it not for a now deleted post that was - in the words of its author - mean and arrogant.

KLeth
2005-04-04, 02:18
Sorry - My post wasn't meant to be directed at anybody specific and no offence intended.

Major Slacker
2005-04-04, 04:13
A woman carrying her baby gets on a crowded city bus. A guy stands up and offers the woman his seat, but then he stands there staring at the baby. The woman gets nervous and asks, "Is there something wrong?" The guy says, "That's gotta be the ugliest baby I've ever seen." All hell breaks loose: the woman is screaming and crying; the guy is yelling; the other passengers are trying to quiet the woman and get the guy away from her; the bus driver brings the bus to a screeching, lurching stop; everything gets quiet. The bus driver says, "What's going on here?" and all hell breaks loose again. The driver can't understand what anyone is saying but figures out soon enough who's at the middle of it all. He tells the guy to get off, follows him to the front of the bus, hands him a transfer and closes the door. Then he grabs his lunch box, goes back to the woman, gives her a soda and says, "There, there now, ma'am, take a deep breath and have a sip of this soda. You'll feel better. And here, take this banana for your monkey."

On the first day of a creative writing class the instructor told us this joke, then admonished us to be thoughtful of each other when sharing our ideas. They're in a sense our children, no matter how ugly or beautiful.

GregH
2005-04-04, 18:10
A woman carrying her baby gets on a crowded city bus...And here, take this banana for your monkey."

Slack,
Thank you for sharing that poignant story from your childhood! :rolleyes:

Major Slacker
2005-04-04, 20:18
Slack,
Thank you for sharing that poignant story from your childhood! :rolleyes:You're very welcome.

Another thing the instructor said is that all fiction writing is autobiography. Hmmm…could explain a lot.

tinny2
2005-04-07, 12:12
I don't see any reason for a stove war. :D

I am friends with Aaron from Brasslite, Tinman from Anti-Gravity, and don't see a reason not to be friends with Tinny. Y'all are just trying to stir stuff up.

I tried the atomic fireball thing with a stove that is based on thermal runaway. The idea was to make it so it could only hold 1oz of alcohol and just let it go thermal until it runs out of fuel. i got it to burn 1 oz in 2 minutes but the problem is the pots can't absorb the heat fast enough and most of the heat is wasted. In order to get the boil time down I need some way to get the pot more absorbent. I beleive the only way to do this is with a heat sink?---Tinny---when in rome do as the romans do.

Lanthar
2005-04-07, 12:36
I've thought about ways to do heat ex's for pots... including insulated wind shields that are attached at the top of the pot with the only oulet for used / cooled air at the bottom of the wind shield, which would go to the outside of the stove wind shield... I'll try to sketch it up sometime... but the idea is to force the hot air to give up as much energy to the pot before leagin contact with the pump rather than being able to "float away"... kind of like the highly efficient clay stoves where the pot is actually set inside of the stove. (reference the peace corp's wood stove guide, I have the pdf if someone wants one)

SGT Rock
2005-04-07, 13:42
I tried the atomic fireball thing with a stove that is based on thermal runaway. The idea was to make it so it could only hold 1oz of alcohol and just let it go thermal until it runs out of fuel. i got it to burn 1 oz in 2 minutes but the problem is the pots can't absorb the heat fast enough and most of the heat is wasted. In order to get the boil time down I need some way to get the pot more absorbent. I beleive the only way to do this is with a heat sink?---Tinny---when in rome do as the romans do.

I tend to agree here. I burn this thing and watch all that wasted energy and just absolutly hate the design I am playing with. I don't know if a heat sink is all that needed though. It might help, but seems over complicated to me.

KLeth
2005-04-07, 14:13
Well, I don't think a heatsink is the answer, it might be hard to transfer the energy to the pot without loosing too much.
My humble opinion is that the way to go to resolve the issue is to do as Lanthar states. It's important to slow down the uprising heat so it's in contact with the pot as long as possible. MSR made this heattransfer-thingy that looks like it's designed to slow down the hot gasses and keeping'em in contact with the pot for as long as possible.

Or did I miss something ?!?!?? :captain:

tinny2
2005-04-07, 21:19
All the heatsink does is increase the area of the pot bottom so there is more metal to heat. I don't think it is how hot you get it as how much area you heat. you have to admit it workes for the jetboil very well. I imagine that these boys that built the jetboil had some college under there belts and a good background in heat transfer technology. So I tend to follow their lead. If you have a spotwelder and some good aluminum sheet stock it shouldn't be that big a deal to make a very efficent pot out of a wal-mart grease pan.---Tinny--

SGT Rock
2005-04-07, 23:20
You may be right, but it seems a little backwards to me to add onces of weight to save grams of fuel.

tinny2
2005-04-07, 23:47
I thought this was about making a stove that was super fast with no regard for fuel efficency. So I guess an oz of aluminum shouldn't make any difference if you are carrying a quart or two of fuel. The idea of the heatsink is to speedup the boil time not to save fuel. But if it works real good it probably would save alot of fuel on a regular stove application. i think the heat sink would only weigh about 1/2 oz--the jetboil heatsink is really small and thin. I have bid on a spot welder on ebay---tinny--

Mutinousdoug
2005-04-08, 00:23
Forgive me if you'all have gone over this, but heat exchange and heat storage is the key here. Aluminum is a pretty good heat exhanger; it absorbs heat and it radiates heat equaly well (not exactly equal but, for our discussion, OK?). As long as you add calories it heats up, and we think thats a good thing until the rice (for instance) starts to burn. More metal+more surface=more heat.
As soon as we remove the heat source, the AL pot starts to cool down, right? So the rice stops burning, and the porrage gets cold. Aluminum sucks for storing heat. Stainless steel still sucks unless you compare it to AL. Nice, thin, backpacking metal minimizes heat loss (and heat storage). Heavy, clay horno ovens store heat for hours. Days even. What we need is a fireproof heat collector/storage system. Fiberglass is sort of recently traditional. Soapstone was widely used on upscale stoves to store and radiate heat 150 years ago. Something lighter? Asbestos comes to mind. Yum!
So, anyway, you want to store heat in a hurry? use metal. but remember, it radiates it just as fast. You need an aluminum wok with a clay lid.
Want to store heat and radiate it over a period of time? You got to use a material that absorbes heat slowly to get a material that radiates it the same way.
I say we just use a plutonium key-fob to heat everything. It's going to be real heavy for the size of it, and you'll probably want to add the weight of shielding, but it will outlast your (shortened) lifetime without refill and you could maybe get a car that used it to drive you to your favorite trailhead.
Just brainstorming here.

SGT Rock
2005-04-08, 01:35
I thought this was about making a stove that was super fast with no regard for fuel efficency. So I guess an oz of aluminum shouldn't make any difference if you are carrying a quart or two of fuel. The idea of the heatsink is to speedup the boil time not to save fuel. But if it works real good it probably would save alot of fuel on a regular stove application. i think the heat sink would only weigh about 1/2 oz--the jetboil heatsink is really small and thin. I have bid on a spot welder on ebay---tinny--

Your right, it may do that. But a quart or two of fuel? That is a lot. I carry more like 4 ounces. :D

youngblood
2005-04-08, 08:21
You may be right, but it seems a little backwards to me to add onces of weight to save grams of fuel.
That's the key to all of this. How does the weight of the mechanical part of the 'increased fuel efficiency' compare to the actual weight of the fuel saved for a particular trip?

The 'cost of increased efficiency' may not make sense for a solo hiker when they cook very little and are only on the trail for 4 or 5 days at a time. However, the 'cost of increased efficiency' may make a lot of sense for a team of mountaineers on a three week trip at high altitudes where they cook several times a day and melt snow for water.

Youngblood

PS. I think the college boys call the heat sinks 'heat sinks' when they are emitting heat and then turn around and call the heat sinks 'heat exchangers' when they are absorbing heat.

tinny2
2005-04-08, 11:07
Your right, it may do that. But a quart or two of fuel? That is a lot. I carry more like 4 ounces. :D

I don't understand why you guys keep straying from the original subject. To remind you ---The original subject was ---A STOVE THAT WOULD BOIL WATER IN 2.5 MINUTES WITH NO REGARD FOR FUEL OR WEIGHT. FOCUS--FOCUS.

Lanthar
2005-04-08, 11:14
I don't understand why you guys keep straying from the original subject. To remind you ---The original subject was ---A STOVE THAT WOULD BOIL WATER IN 2.5 MINUTES WITH NO REGARD FOR FUEL OR WEIGHT. FOCUS--FOCUS.

Tinny, just a heads up, if you can effectively weld to the bottom some sort of "flux ring" to the bottom an aluminum pot. You will have earned mucho props in my book. My understanding is that aluminum is hard to weld, especially the small thickness of most pots.

edit - btw, if you want to earn nearly unilimited props, do it on the bottom of a henieken can pot.

actually, now that I think about it, you could almost simpley form a "flux ring" and wedge it into the bottom of a can pot, and get nearly the extra heat transfer.

SGT Rock
2005-04-08, 11:25
I was thinking the same thing today. WHAT IF...

The outer ring was titanium to keep heat in the center and the fins were something like aluminum?

tinny2
2005-04-08, 12:42
You are correct welding aluminum is tough. But i am not really welding it. A spot welder simply holds the thin metal between two small electrodes with a contact point about 1/16 to 1/8 in diamater and under great pressure then it zaps it with a big jolt of power. The jolt can be adjusted to the correct level. This flux ring would probably have about 25 spot welds or more. i am almost positive i can do this with a heineken can --Cool stuff---tinny--

SGT Rock
2005-04-08, 12:57
Another thought:

If the important thing is to make more contact for the surface area, wouldn't it be possible to make the flux ring/heat sink a part of the pot stand system instead of welding it to a pot. The strategy would require that you make a ring that is close the same diameter as your pot bottom so your pot would sit on it snugly. This would mean less pot modifications and more concentration on the stove/stand.

Mutinousdoug
2005-04-08, 13:05
Aluminum doesn't really resistance weld very well. It's conductivity is too close to that of copper electrodes. You'll just pass all that current through the joint without heating anything up. Or else burn the electrodes to your joint.
Good luck though.

GregH
2005-04-08, 15:07
I say we just use a plutonium key-fob...it will outlast your (shortened) lifetime without refill...Just brainstorming here.

LOL, you're killing me! :adore:


From the Atomic Fireball to a plutonium key-fob, you've got to admit we're really breaking new ground here!

Lanthar
2005-04-08, 15:48
Another thought:

If the important thing is to make more contact for the surface area, wouldn't it be possible to make the flux ring/heat sink a part of the pot stand system instead of welding it to a pot. The strategy would require that you make a ring that is close the same diameter as your pot bottom so your pot would sit on it snugly. This would mean less pot modifications and more concentration on the stove/stand.

You know, I was thinking, bout a month ago about making an ultralightweight pot out of a disk of stainless / aluminum and a foil bag from mcmaster.

Some of the problem of using a pot with a plate and not actually joining them, is that you'll always have a small layer of air (aka insulation) between the pot and the plate which may negate any gains from the heat exchanger... but then again it might not. CPUs in PCs have the heat sinks mounted with thermal grease (not something that you want to take around)... hmm... I wonder if someone makes a thermally conductive epoxy...

SGT Rock
2005-04-08, 16:14
So what If I took some old CPU heat sinks and just mounted them to the bottom of an aluminum pot with some JB weld?

tinny2
2005-04-08, 16:42
Aluminum doesn't really resistance weld very well. It's conductivity is too close to that of copper electrodes. You'll just pass all that current through the joint without heating anything up. Or else burn the electrodes to your joint.
Good luck though.

I have done this before it works great with anything thin but not good on the thicker stuff

Mutinousdoug
2005-04-08, 16:45
Epoxy (that's JB Weld, right?) is resistant to temps up to about 400f. Then it starts to break down and emit toxic gases as it fails. I think metal filled epoxy resin as a glue would be a passable conductor medium within it's limits.
So Rock; I think you'll have to glue the CPU heat sinks to the INSIDE of your pot. They'd might still work if the thermal condutivity of AL is greater than that of H2O ( I don't have a material properties reference handy). And they'd be protected from heat above 212f! (unless you were frying eggs or something). A biatch to clean up though.
I think you need either an infinitly wide pan or an infinitly tall chimney to capture all the calories from your fire.

tinny2
2005-04-08, 16:46
You know, I was thinking, bout a month ago about making an ultralightweight pot out of a disk of stainless / aluminum and a foil bag from mcmaster.

Some of the problem of using a pot with a plate and not actually joining them, is that you'll always have a small layer of air (aka insulation) between the pot and the plate which may negate any gains from the heat exchanger... but then again it might not. CPUs in PCs have the heat sinks mounted with thermal grease (not something that you want to take around)... hmm... I wonder if someone makes a thermally conductive epoxy...

That is correct the heatsink must be physically attached to the pot in order to efficently transfer the heat or be mounted in a thermal mediun like thermal putty--very messy---Tinny--

tinny2
2005-04-08, 16:51
Epoxy (that's JB Weld, right?) is resistant to temps up to about 400f. Then it starts to break down and emit toxic gases as it fails. I think metal filled epoxy resin as a glue would be a passable conductor medium within it's limits.
So Rock; I think you'll have to glue the CPU heat sinks to the INSIDE of your pot. They'd might still work if the thermal condutivity of AL is greater than that of H2O ( I don't have a material properties reference handy). And they'd be protected from heat above 212f! (unless you were frying eggs or something). A biatch to clean up though.
I think you need either an infinitly wide pan or an infinitly tall chimney to capture all the calories from your fire.

This is another thing I was looking at --where can i find a really thin aluminum pot that is 8 or 9 inches wide and only 3 inches high with a lid? Must be thin and cheap like wal-mart grease pan. OH the heatsink must be on the flame side of the pot to work--tinny--

tinny2
2005-04-08, 16:57
Epoxy (that's JB Weld, right?) is resistant to temps up to about 400f. Then it starts to break down and emit toxic gases as it fails. I think metal filled epoxy resin as a glue would be a passable conductor medium within it's limits.
So Rock; I think you'll have to glue the CPU heat sinks to the INSIDE of your pot. They'd might still work if the thermal condutivity of AL is greater than that of H2O ( I don't have a material properties reference handy). And they'd be protected from heat above 212f! (unless you were frying eggs or something). A biatch to clean up though.
I think you need either an infinitly wide pan or an infinitly tall chimney to capture all the calories from your fire.

JB WELD is ok for an experiment but not up for the long haul. I would never sell anything that has JB WELD in it or on it. This stuff is like duct tape and wd 40 --OK in a pinch but not made for everyday use. Just isn't that tough and will not stand up to any open flames. Sorry, I just don't like the stuff.--Tinny--

SGT Rock
2005-04-08, 17:00
So back to the other idea. If the heatsink/flux ring was a pot stnad that the pot was totally in contact with, wouldn't that eliminate all the need for welding and epoxy to mate it to the pot?

Mutinousdoug
2005-04-08, 17:27
I have done this before it works great with anything thin but not good on the thicker stuff
I worked in the Aerospace/automotive industry for (cough) 24 years designing (among other arcane stuff) electronic squibs and cartridges. We never attemted an aluminum closure except via electron beam welding. Of course, we were looking for a hermetic seal which you aren't. Stitch welding a stainless closure never got better than about a 3% scrap rate. (Again for hermeticity). The joint design was normally a thin disc welded to a (thick) housing or a "burn down" weld where edges of equal thickness would be fused (not a resistance weld) so I'm comparing my apples to your oranges.
As you noted below, the efficiency of your heat exchanger will depend on the amount of fused metal you have between your two parts.
Again, good luck in your endeavor.

tinny2
2005-04-08, 17:38
If you can get it to contact most of the pot with a force of about 500psi then it will work but computer CPUs are mounted in thermal putty because they can't get enough force or a flat enough surface to transfer the heat. if you take two pieces of metal and precision grind them flat and join them with force they will only touch on part of there surface because of their surface structure. And when you heat them they will warp and touch even less. That is why everything has gaskets or a tapered fit. Too high tech for soda can technology. Here is an idea i just found that might be a compromise. HTS-2000 aluminum brasing rod. the video shows them patching a sodacan with it!! It sells for $65.00 a pound and can be used with a map gas torch. the melting point is 700+ degrees and i think a pot full of water never gets over 300?---Tinny-----http://www.aluminumrepair.com/-----watch the video!!!

Lanthar
2005-04-08, 18:43
If you can get it to contact most of the pot with a force of about 500psi then it will work but computer CPUs are mounted in thermal putty because they can't get enough force or a flat enough surface to transfer the heat. if you take two pieces of metal and precision grind them flat and join them with force they will only touch on part of there surface because of their surface structure. And when you heat them they will warp and touch even less. That is why everything has gaskets or a tapered fit. Too high tech for soda can technology. Here is an idea i just found that might be a compromise. HTS-2000 aluminum brasing rod. the video shows them patching a sodacan with it!! It sells for $65.00 a pound and can be used with a map gas torch. the melting point is 700+ degrees and i think a pot full of water never gets over 300?---Tinny-----http://www.aluminumrepair.com/-----watch the video!!!

tinny, I think you may be on to something, flip a hene can over, get your formed heat EX thing wedged in there and "pour" some of this in and let it set... The key, I think would be not melting the can as you pour it, but I think it would work.

Hell, why stop there, then wrap the can with a layer of fiberglass insulating tape and you have the ghetto-fabulous alcohol burning "jetboil"... w00t!

Lanthar
2005-04-08, 18:44
If you can get it to contact most of the pot with a force of about 500psi then it will work but computer CPUs are mounted in thermal putty because they can't get enough force or a flat enough surface to transfer the heat. if you take two pieces of metal and precision grind them flat and join them with force they will only touch on part of there surface because of their surface structure. And when you heat them they will warp and touch even less. That is why everything has gaskets or a tapered fit. Too high tech for soda can technology. Here is an idea i just found that might be a compromise. HTS-2000 aluminum brasing rod. the video shows them patching a sodacan with it!! It sells for $65.00 a pound and can be used with a map gas torch. the melting point is 700+ degrees and i think a pot full of water never gets over 300?---Tinny-----http://www.aluminumrepair.com/-----watch the video!!!

tinny, I think you may be on to something, flip a hene can over, get your formed heat EX thing wedged in there and "pour" some of this in and let it set... The key, I think would be not melting the can as you pour it, but I think it would work.

Hell, why stop there, then wrap the can with a layer of fiberglass insulating tape and you have the ghetto-fabulous alcohol burning "jetboil"... w00t!

actually, with some aluminum shim stock or tubing and some of this you might be able to make your own pot... but then again I'm not sure whether you want this in contact with the water that you're boilng as there is a chance it could leach stuff

tinny2
2005-04-08, 19:25
I think if you make the heatsink and tin it with this stuff then clean and tin the bottom of the pan you can just clamp them together and heat the whole thing up to 732 deg and it will all bond together like sweat soldering a copper waterpipe. BUT THE BEST LAID PLANS OF MICE AND MEN OFTEN GO ASTRAY. ---TINNY--- this will be a fun project!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tinny2
2005-04-08, 21:34
Sideburners have a reduced fuel capacity vs top burners... I know, I know, you can boil a gallon of water in under 5 minutes with your perfectly unoriginal design - oh wait you painted yours up with grill paint, forgive me - so needing to increase fuel capacity for cold weather use (or by freak chance, you dont WANT to use a keg can) is utter nonsense and further research should stop?

Hmmm.... but then, while your arrogant (red)bull$h!t comments must make you feel alll warm and pretty, fact is, your design is highly specialized, unstable, and even if its the most efficent design on the planet, being an @$$hole wont sell you any stoves.

Even "wide based" pepsi can side burner stoves ala TinMan are noted as being unstable. Sure, some pots will *sit* on them with some sort of general stability, but they are tall and skinny. Its not exactly a high school science experiment to know that tall and skinny is more easily tipped than short and fat. Its also not a science experiment to know that short and fat pots are more stable, and make more direct contact with the flame (the hot part) than skinny pots with flames going up the sides. How so? Side flames release over 50% of their radiant energy to the non pot side, thats why gas stoves dont send flames leaping up the side of your T-Fal or KitchenAide crock pots at home. Its.... ineffecient.

Now, there *IS* more room for exploration and advancement.... and if you were at all honest, youd admit that.


So young so angry --Dam that rap music!!--Ha--Ha--Ha---Tinny--

Sgathak
2005-04-08, 21:39
So vapid, so petty

You really felt it was appropriate to bring this back up?

tinny2
2005-04-08, 22:08
whatever--

Sgathak
2005-04-08, 22:24
Yup, whatever....

Im baffled as to how you thought that was funny. Either you thrive on chaos, or are just such a poor example of human being that your only enjoyment stems from the upsetting (or the hope thereof) of others. "So young, So Angry"? Really? I dropped our - discussion - days ago, yet Im the angry one? You threw a fit like a infant missing his bottle when called on your behavior, and your response was to delete all your posts.... thats fine. Cowardly, immature, and showing how little character you really have... but, fine none the less. You can act the toddler if you want.

Now, realizing that you are the sort of person who finds enjoyment in perverse sadism... Ill ruin your game time. I have put you on ignore.

You are less than a "whatever". Bye.

tinny2
2005-04-08, 22:30
I guess that means I win.

GregH
2005-04-09, 00:41
I guess that means I win.

This is what happens when you don't pour water on it and stir the ashes cold. :dancing2:

Remember, only you can prevent forest fires.

tinny2
2005-04-09, 01:45
AMEN--let it rest. sorry you guys had to see that.--tinny--OH and yes i feel better! Now lets get back to the atomic fireball--I see they have the aluminum rod on ebay pretty cheap. this stuff is worth the $11.00 just to experiment with. i will let you know how it works out on a hine can.--Tinny--

blackdog
2005-04-09, 07:36
Computer CPU cooling ideas might help... Copper transfers heat better than aluminum and silver does the job even better. But the most recent designs depend on "heat pipes", gas-filled tubes, to move the heat fast from the processor to the heat sink.

I'm also fond of turbulent gas flows to maximize heat transfer.

"beware the blackdog"

SGT Rock
2005-04-09, 07:43
Maybe the solution is to make a cast and pour your own pot that has fins already on the bottom. Or maybe, get a titanium 5.5" pipe and cut it to 2.75" tall for the walls and pour the aluminum bottom with the fins on it. Recess it about 1/4" from the bottom of the tube. This way you get the heat transfer on the bottom from the aluminum and the added insulation and strength for the sidewalls of titanium.

http://www.zirconiumtube.com/TitaniumPipe.htm

tinny2
2005-04-09, 10:05
Has anybody had any luck with esbit tabs ? i could never get them to more than simmer 16 oz of water--very very low simmer.---Tinny--

SGT Rock
2005-04-11, 23:12
I had luck with them. It took a good windscreen to make it work.

tinny2
2005-04-12, 01:12
Could you use them as your only heat source? And do the get hot enough to sterilize water?

SGT Rock
2005-04-12, 12:19
I did get a half ounce of the fuel to boil water and maintain it for a while. I know a couple of people that do use it as their only source of heat. I haven't ever tried it because it is so much more expensive than any other option. Esbit is Hexamine, and you can buy 50 pound bags of hexamine and you could possibly make your own hexamine tablets.

tinny2
2005-04-12, 13:14
what is hexamine used for in 50 pound bags? and does it stink like esbit?

SGT Rock
2005-04-12, 14:34
I don't know what someone would use hexamine for. I suppose it can be used in some chemial processes. It does stink according to a friend of mine that bought a bucket of the stuff on E-Bay.

Lanthar
2005-04-12, 16:38
I don't know what someone would use hexamine for. I suppose it can be used in some chemial processes. It does stink according to a friend of mine that bought a bucket of the stuff on E-Bay.


NOTE (http://zenstoves.net/SolidFuelBurner.htm): Hexamethylenetetramine releases formaldehyde, ammonia, carbon oxides, hydrogen cyanide and nitrogen oxides when burned. It is also used as a urinary tract infection antiseptic and in explosives.

Apparently you can use it to make explosives...

Mutinousdoug
2005-04-12, 17:55
Long ago in a galaxy far away, the Army used to give us that Hexamine stuff to warm our water. Nobody used it for that because of the noxious fumes given off and the puny fire. We did use it to clear suspected tunnel complexes and spider holes; Light a half dozen, throw in a hole and cover it up and anything in there was coming out. Even insects crawled their little butts out of there. If you tried to use it to warm some water in your hootch it had the same effect. The ammonia smell would clear your sinuses right smart.
The Arty guys would use cannon propellant to boil water, but even surplus H4895 is a little pricey for cooking with these days.
Now C4... a pong-pong ball sized wad of that would bring a canteen cup of water to a boil in less than 60 seconds. No wind screen required.
Hey Top!
Why don't you find us a source of that for camping with? A pound or so would last most of us all season.

Lanthar
2005-04-12, 18:05
Now C4... a pong-pong ball sized wad of that would bring a canteen cup of water to a boil in less than 60 seconds. No wind screen required.
Hey Top!
Why don't you find us a source of that for camping with? A pound or so would last most of us all season.

:blink: wow...

SGT Rock
2005-04-12, 18:59
It works great, just don't stomp it out...

Also, the ATF would probably not approve of me selling it over the Internet for stove fuel.

I read an anarchist site once, they list hexamine (Esbit) as one of the components to make homemade plastic explosives.

tinny2
2005-04-12, 19:13
Hey SGT i have had quite a few people ask me about simmer rings and i have told all of them to go to your site and either build an ION or buy one. my stoves just arn't made to simmer and i really don't wan't to mess around with that part of the cooking thing . I would rather use a pot cozy or a sweat shirt. I guess i am just getting lazy. Speaking of sweat shirts. Do you guys wear any cotton on the trail? i have talked with some guys that told me in no uncertan terms to loose the cotton before it kills me ---OOOOOOOH. --Tinny.

SGT Rock
2005-04-12, 19:50
Tinny, I agree about simmer rings. I just made one to satisfy people that keep wanting one no matter how much I try to point them at cozies. In fact my wife is gettin the final stages set on a machine washable fabric cozy that weighs right around one once and will fit most of the solo pots that backpackers use. It also serves as a stuff sack.

The only cotton I carry is a bandanna.

tinny2
2005-04-13, 13:43
I think a pot cozy is great. Not only does it simmer your dinner but it keeps the hot pot from burning you while you eat out of it and also protects the pot and keeps it from ratteling while you hike. They only weigh an oz and can save that much fuel in one day.

GregH
2005-04-13, 20:30
No cotton. Everything is nylon, silnylon, polypro, or a wool blend (socks). Cotton takes forever to dry and can be dangerous when wet.

tinny2
2005-04-13, 22:35
This is what i was told and read. So one day i am at an AT shelter and run into these two guys that i spent the evening with. They had both done the whole AT. When i said i didn't wear cotton they both said cotton was OK as long as you used a little common sense and they were both wearing cotton sweat shirts. So i am a little confused.

SGT Rock
2005-04-14, 00:42
I prefer not to use cotton because synthetics are so easy to get and use. I can remember having wet clothes for days when I used cotton back in the day.

skysappr
2005-04-16, 00:30
What is your Fab cozy going to be made from and I assume you are adding it to the ION product line. Will it work with the Snowpeak TI700?

KLeth
2005-04-16, 06:01
I use cotton! :smile:
When it's cold or wet I don't use cotton, but cotton is very good when it's hot and dry.
When I did the Nijmegen Vierdaagse I used cotton t-shirts under my shirt when it was hot. When it was very hot I normally used both cotton t-shirt and cotton shirt.

My hiking trousers are made of G1000(tm) (http://www.fjallraven.se/en/g1000/) which contains 35% cotton. G1000 is very comfy :biggrin: and dries very very quickly.
Actually I always wear G1000 trousers :biggrin: :biggrin:

SGT Rock
2005-04-16, 08:28
Well my wife is the deciding factor on the cozies. She always wanted a job she could do from the house and now I have shown her the way LOL!

I haven't tried it on the Snowpeak 700. You mean this one right:http://www.snowpeak.com/Gear/scs005t.html

We can make a cardboard model and see.

skysappr
2005-04-16, 13:09
And roger that would be the one. On the subject do we consider blackening this TI pot the same as we would have with aluminum or other type of pots.

I am currently re vamping my cook system, I started with the pot now experimenting with some other type of stoves. I have a Generation 1 ION that I built and have some material from Michaels to make my next one but, I am looking at some other designs for the tinker factor more so than any other.

I do like the cozy stove sack concept though. Good luck to Dixie in persuit of her future product line. :biggrin:

Major Slacker
2005-04-16, 17:11
Man, oh man, I go walk the AT for nine days, and you guys wander halfway across cyberspace and back. How did cotton get into this?

…The original subject was ---A STOVE THAT WOULD BOIL WATER IN 2.5 MINUTES WITH NO REGARD FOR FUEL OR WEIGHT…Are we talking 2 cups of water here? I usually boil 3.

I packed away all my stove crap in the basement before leaving, but tomorrow I'll dig out "The Beast from Hell" to see what it does with 2 cups. It sucks fuel and incinerates windscreens but turns in some scary/respectable boil times with 3 cups.

Oh, and the only cotton I carry is a bandana and some Q-tips. I just don't feel clean unless I do the ears. :D

SGT Rock
2005-04-16, 20:14
I've painted pots and really didn't notice any difference. Seems like I read a review, maybe on thru-hiker.com, where someone tested the theory on the same pot with the same stove under the same conditions and found maybe a 5 second difference.

I'm in Mississippi right now, so I can't check the cozy, but I will when I get back.

tinny2
2005-04-16, 21:59
I have been playing with the really hot stoves and a pot with heat sinks. i have found that you just can't trap that much heat and get it into the water. the heat sinks work great with a small amount of heat and will suck it up so there is almost no waste but the heat sinks just can't handle the big heat. i think this is how the jetboil gets so much heat from such a small flame. i also discovered another thing while playing. I can increase my boil speed by limiting the contact of the pot with everything including the stove and pot stand. I think the most efficent setup would be a potstand that only contacted the pot on 3 pointed rods to keep the thermal drain to a minimum. this might increase the speed of the ION?--all you would have to do is cut the TI potstand so It only touches the pot at the outer edges. HEY it is worth a try.--Tinny--

SGT Rock
2005-04-16, 22:41
Well Tinny, I actually thought about this during development - take an Ion stand and make the legs about 1/4" longer, then turn it upside down and put the stove on the cross pieces and the pot sits on the tips of the legs. When I get back I can make you one with legs to your specs if you want to play with it.

This sort of follows some of the experiences I saw when developing the stand, esp with regards to materials. When I made the stand from steel, the stove took more fuel to boil but the stand got very hot and stayed hot for a long time. The hypothesis I came up with is the steel was serving as a heat sink in that it was storing the heat energy instead of allowing the heat to pass on to the pot and then the water. With my titanium stand and the Ion, I can actually pick up the stand by the end of a leg when the stove is going, but with the steel this was impossible without burning yourself. I assume that an aluminum stand would do something similar. Since earlier you mentioned about the gaps that would interfere with heat transfer with a heat exchanger that just sat with the pot on it this theory I came up with would make even more sense to what you are now talking about - keeping the flame and pot interacting with as little material in the mix and with as little conducting metal in the flow of the flame to bleed of the heat energy.

did I just ramble, or does that make any sense at all?

tinny2
2005-04-16, 23:26
Yes I understand --anything that gets hot will rob heat from the pot. Deano my camera man and I shot the baking video today. We used the Ion you sent for the heat source and it kept the perfect temp for the whole process. Seems to be almost perfect for this type of baking with the walmart grease pan. The only problem was deciding who got to eat the golden brown steaming hot biscuits. When Deano gets the whole thing cut and pasted onto a CD I will send you one. Did you get the STEALTHS yet?---Tinny--

SGT Rock
2005-04-16, 23:35
I may have at home. I am now in Mississippi for Army stuff and won't be home until the first week of May unless something happens. My wife should be sending me a package next week with my books for the college algebra class I am taking on line and some yerba stuff, hopefully the stoves will be with it all.

I'm glad the Ion worked out for you. I was thinking about the inverted stand idea and thought about how that may work better for the stove line I am following too. See, even tough titanium is stronger and resists heat better, the thicknesses I use are VERY thin. I made a taller stand to get the pot in the hottest spot of the stove flame in one test, so I had to make a taller version of the TiPod to get it there. The stove got the titanium stand so hot it was cherry red, and the legs started to droop to the side with the pot weight. If I do an inverted stand it should also get the stand out of the flame and prevent this happening again. I'll probably make the support "legs" wider than the TiPod and then give them a 45 degree bend in them so that they have a little more support at that point than just a 3/8" fin.

BTW, have you seen photos of the new MSR vapor stove system that should come out around 2007? Looks like the pot uses a heat exchanger system from what I have seen in some photos. Also, to save some time in the experiment phase, you could buy a JetBoil companion cup. It is the same cup the JetBoil uses with the lid and fins and all.

dixicritter
2005-04-17, 00:09
The stealth arrived today here at the house. Will mail when I send out the package. :)

Major Slacker
2005-04-17, 00:23
…I can increase my boil speed by limiting the contact of the pot with everything including the stove and pot stand. I think the most efficent setup would be a potstand that only contacted the pot on 3 pointed rods to keep the thermal drain to a minimum…
I got the hottest burns and fastest boils (way back when I thought it was important) by using a very tall tripod stand with small angled supports rather than rods. A larger aperture diameter to stove height ratio -- in other words, a shorter stove with a bigger hole -- also increased heat output.

Like this but taller and pointier:

SGT Rock
2005-04-17, 00:30
Major S,

That looks very much like the paper model I just made. I figured pot height should be about 1" above the burner.

tinny2
2005-04-17, 00:38
Yes i have a jetboil but don't dare use it to goof around.The extra cup for it cost 29 bucks. --Tinny--

Hog On Ice
2005-04-17, 08:36
I think the most efficent setup would be a potstand that only contacted the pot on 3 pointed rods to keep the thermal drain to a minimum. this might increase the speed of the ION?.--Tinny--

One thought that I had here is to possibly use three creamic rods to support the pot. Downside of the idea is that the rods tend to be fragile and one would need some sort of a base to hold the rods upright - possibly as foil covered piece of wood.

Major Slacker
2005-04-17, 10:32
One thought that I had here is to possibly use three creamic rods to support the pot…I've made variations of my tripod with legs that were almost tubular. I'll try pushing that idea further.

I've also wondered about JB Welding vertical rods (maybe chopsticks -- I mean, graphite or carbon fiber?) into the angles of the tripod. Hmmm…

Sarge, I think I used more like 1.5 - 1.75 height above the stove, but it wasn't an Ion.

SGT Rock
2005-04-17, 17:29
Well the Ion is only like 5/8" above the stove. My hottest stove so far was about 1" above the burner, but the sweet spot for any stove can be a little different. The trick is getting the right spot in the flame pattern of the particular burner that gives the results you are trying to achieve.

Major Slacker
2005-04-17, 20:57
I understand what you mean about the sweet spot, but for whatever reason my stoves don't behave like the Ion in that respect. They just burn hotter the higher I put the pot -- even 2" or 3" above the stove. I eventually decided on a potstand height limit equal to or less than the width of the stand for stability more than anything else.

It was too nice a day here to stay inside messing around with stoves. I'll fire up The Beast tomorrow and let you know what happens.

SGT Rock
2005-04-17, 22:53
This talk is getting me to think about changing the TiPod on my Ion to invert it and get the cross pieces out of the flame area so that it looks more like one of your stand Major S.

Also, fired up my Simmerlite this evening in preparation for a possible review of gas stoves. I haven't used any gas stoves in over a year. I forgot how much you have to do with them. Stick to alcohol whenever possible.

Oh, another thought. Did you see the BackpackingLight.com review of canister stoves? The Coleman Exponent Xtreme was very close to the JetBoil in many ways while doing it with a steel pot and doing a whole quart at a time instead of how they had to do a pint at a time in the JetBoil which would already give the JetBoil an advantage anyway. Maybe the Flux ring isn't that necessary?

tinny2
2005-04-18, 00:32
I know that the public doesn't like to change the way they do things especially if what they are doing works. But after you use the jetboil just once and watch how it performes you will have to wonder what will be next because i have never seen anything heat a Small amount of water as fast as this thing does. It doesn do all that good on more than 16 oz and that is all it is designed for. But If you put just 16 oz in it and have a new canister of fuel it will start shooting bubbles off the bottom almost instantly. I do have to say as the canister gets down on fuel it is not that impressive.I am wondering if the two gasses are used up equally or if the butane is used faster leaving only propane at the end? The first pot on new fuel boils in 2.5 minutes but the last 2 or 3 take up to 7 minutes.---Tinny

KLeth
2005-04-18, 02:12
I know that the public doesn't like to change the way they do things especially if what they are doing works. But after you use the jetboil just once and watch how it performes you will have to wonder what will be next because i have never seen anything heat a Small amount of water as fast as this thing does. It doesn do all that good on more than 16 oz and that is all it is designed for. But If you put just 16 oz in it and have a new canister of fuel it will start shooting bubbles off the bottom almost instantly. I do have to say as the canister gets down on fuel it is not that impressive.I am wondering if the two gasses are used up equally or if the butane is used faster leaving only propane at the end? The first pot on new fuel boils in 2.5 minutes but the last 2 or 3 take up to 7 minutes.---Tinny

Propane boils at around -42C at ATM pressure.
Butane has a boiling temperature of around +1C at ATM (not entirely clear on this - Also seen a reference on +9C).
The technical calorific (heat) values of both should be almost equal.
The propane might vaporize first, leaving more or less pure butane and thereby decreasing the pressure within the canister which results in less output - This can be severe under cold conditions. The vaporization of the gas itself will cool the canister quite a lot and more than once I've seen a canister ice up on the outside and output drop.

Smack a heatpad on the canister and I should think you'll get better results with used/near empty canisters.
Is it possible to get pure propane canisters ? Never seen one myself.

Our stove has a hose from the canister to the burner, so when it's cold or the canister is near empty, we place the canister on the lid of the pot for a bit of preheating. We remove it if the output gets too high or the pot gets too hot. Our setup even allows us to burn liquid gas by turning the canister upside down, but then output is uncontrollable.

Lanthar
2005-04-18, 08:45
Smack a heatpad on the canister and I should think you'll get better results with used/near empty canisters.
Is it possible to get pure propane canisters ? Never seen one myself.


Yeah, they do. But not in the sizes for backpacking. the vapor pressur eof pure propane is way too high for small containers to be safe (or effecient depending on how you look at it, the walls have to be really thick)

almost eveyone in america who camps has had a propane stove / lantern at one time

tinny2
2005-04-18, 09:46
I have been checking the fuel efficiency of the jetboil also and it only seems to take about 0.2 oz by weight of fuel to boil 16 oz. This doesn.t change much from the first boil to the last so i guess the only difference is fuel pressure not consumption. This makes me think that the fuel is staying mixed from beginning to end but the pressure just keeps dropping as the fuel gets lower. --tinny--

Lanthar
2005-04-18, 17:28
I have been checking the fuel efficiency of the jetboil also and it only seems to take about 0.2 oz by weight of fuel to boil 16 oz. This doesn.t change much from the first boil to the last so i guess the only difference is fuel pressure not consumption. This makes me think that the fuel is staying mixed from beginning to end but the pressure just keeps dropping as the fuel gets lower. --tinny--

Actually, you're half right now, and were half right previously. You were originally right in assuming that the propanje lights off preferentially first (it has a higher vapor pressure, so more is going to come out so the can might be 50p/50b but the vapors coming out may be 70p/30b), as it goes the percentage butane is going to drop(mayeb now it is 30p/70b in the can), dropping the average vapor pressure (ability to spew fuel out of the canister), so now the mix coming out is more like 40p/60b but it's coming out slower, howefver the overall BTU/oz of the mixture stays the same as butane and propane have approximately the same BTU/oz rating.

When it plateaus at a 7min burn time, you are probably at 90+%b

tinny2
2005-04-18, 19:19
Thank you for that i had always wondered how that worked. --Tinny--

SGT Rock
2005-04-18, 20:15
Ain't the stove knowledge floating around here fun? :D

GregH
2005-04-18, 22:00
Ain't the stove knowledge floating around here fun? :D

Yeah, and before I started hanging around this forum all I knew was how to light the match! :elefant:

SGT Rock
2005-04-18, 22:17
BTW, guess who got offered the position of Stove Section Editor at Backpacking Light Magazine?

Major Slacker
2005-04-19, 00:19
I released the Beast and got boil times around 3:30, with total burn times around 4:00 on 0.75 oz. of alcohol. I also got 3:30 boil times with a weenie can side-burner (see photos) -- respectable but nowhere near 2:30.

I revisited the heat exchanger concept using a tall 24 oz can pot and Starbucks can stove. I got 4:15 - 4:30 boil times and total burns of 6:00 - 8:00 on 0.75 oz. of alcohol -- an excellent performance boost. The package weighs in at 2.4 oz. It ain't a JetBoil, but it's a durn good alcohol setup.

Lanthar
2005-04-19, 12:46
wonder what wouldhappen if you wrapped it in fiberglass tape...

Major Slacker
2005-04-19, 14:59
wonder what would happen if you wrapped it in fiberglass tape...You mean as insulation around the outside of the windscreen?

I hadn't thought of fiberglass tape but did consider the new silicone stuff they're using for hotpads, bakeware, etc. I wonder where to get a thin sheet of the stuff without spending a bunch of money.

Major Slacker
2005-04-19, 15:25
…I'll keep fixing it 'til it is.

I tested the T24_HEX with the WCSB and incinerated the bottom half of the windscreen. I cut off the burnt parts and put back together a short heat exchanger sans windscreen to test another stove concept. The test stove took about a minute to really go, but then it really, REALLY went. The bottom edge of the heat exchanger started to burn again even though it was an inch or two higher than before. Then the 1200 degree paint on the pot started to melt. The heat exchanger slid down and smothered the stove. The windscreen, before it was incinerated, had been 2" taller than the H.Ex. and held everything up.

I guess I'll have to break out the JB Weld. My plan is to tack the exchanger to the pot in a just a few spots. It seems to make good contact without actually being welded or epoxied at every surface interface. I don't want to diminish performance or add weight.

Lanthar
2005-04-19, 18:50
insulating the outside of the HX is exactly what I had in mind

tinny2
2005-04-22, 00:42
I have ordered thin walled aluminum tub and plate for my next stove design and have been experimenting with the new aluminum brazing rod I got off ebay. This rod is amazing, i can braze anything nonferous with it using a map torch. it came with a stainless steel brush you use to clean the work before you weld it. The welds are very strong and pretty. Just really fun stuff to work with. Probably the only time I ever got something off ebay that was as good as they said it was. I had one piece on the new design that is going to be a bear to install but i think i can make it a press fit and solve the construction problem. This is just pure fun. I also have moved into a bigger building because there wasn't enough room for the new lathes and presses in the old one. now i can build and ship in one place with plenty of room to move around.---tinny--

Lanthar
2005-04-22, 10:06
you talking about that H2000? so it works huh?

after I saw that sight I started thinking... damn, this would let aaron go from brasslite to alumilite...

SGT Rock
2005-04-22, 18:56
What is your Fab cozy going to be made from and I assume you are adding it to the ION product line. Will it work with the Snowpeak TI700?

The cozy will fit that pot, now you need to help me convince the wife to make them :D

skysappr
2005-04-23, 15:24
The cozy will fit that pot, now you need to help me convince the wife to make them :D

P-P-P-Please SGT Rocks Better Half, if you don't help develop a product line of pot cozies, I might develop a ST-St-ST-Studder

:adore:

Major Slacker
2005-05-02, 17:13
insulating the outside of the HX is exactly what I had in mindI tried wrapping the HX with muffler/tailpipe repair tape:

The first try created a gummy, sticky, flapping mess that only partially bonded to the HX. The stove probably didn't generate enough heat to fully activate the adhesive.

The second try created a blazing, smoking, stinking inferno that somehow did not set off smoke alarms or damage the ceiling. The stove probably generated enough heat to fully activate the adhesive, but it's hard to know because it all burned up.

GregH
2005-05-03, 14:21
I tried wrapping the HX with muffler/tailpipe repair tape:

The first try created a gummy, sticky, flapping mess...The second try created a blazing, smoking, stinking inferno

Sounds like it's coming along just fine! :damnmate:

Lanthar
2005-05-03, 15:06
try created a blazing, smoking, stinking inferno that somehow did not set off smoke alarms or damage the ceiling. The stove probably generated enough heat to fully activate the adhesive, but it's hard to know because it all burned up.

:biggrin:

You got some fiberglass insulation someplace? maybe wrap in that then wrap tape over it...

Major Slacker
2005-05-03, 16:30
You got some fiberglass insulation someplace? maybe wrap in that then wrap tape over it...I'll give it a try. What could happen?

monospot
2005-05-03, 21:11
Hi,

I've recently started playing around with alcohol stoves and I have found the discussion here very helpful, thanks.

I found and intersting stove on the web that looks like it is being developed by the military. I you've already seen this I apologized.

http://www.natick.army.mil/soldier/media/fact/food/miwh.htm

I looks like it uses the same techology as the stove MSR says it will release later this year. I wonder how much it weighs. Do you think you could use this techonolgy with alcohol (I assume you could, this one runs on JP-8 which I understand is similar to kerosene/diesel) Would there be any advantage to using it with alcohol? (the stove are already light and efficient, the problems seem to be more with heat transfer)

SGT Rock
2005-05-03, 21:43
We will see. I am the new stove Section Editor for BackpackingLight.com and I am trying to see how much in advance I can get one of those for review.

Major Slacker
2005-05-03, 23:13
You got some fiberglass insulation someplace? maybe wrap in that then wrap tape over it...
Tried it. No mess, no towering inferno, but no performance improvement either. I got the same unimpressive boiling times with and without the insulation wrap. And without the HX.

I haven't been able to reproduce the HX performance since incinerating the original. I used a steam table lid to make the original and have subsequently used roll flashing. It's a heavier gauge, so that probably accounts for it. I guess I'll go buy more steam table lids.

Lanthar
2005-05-04, 10:28
Tried it. No mess, no towering inferno, but no performance improvement either. I got the same unimpressive boiling times with and without the insulation wrap. And without the HX.

I haven't been able to reproduce the HX performance since incinerating the original. I used a steam table lid to make the original and have subsequently used roll flashing. It's a heavier gauge, so that probably accounts for it. I guess I'll go buy more steam table lids.

darn... I still got me another idea... but I'm gonna keep that one to myself until I test it...

Major Slacker
2005-05-04, 15:13
…haven't been able to reproduce the HX performance since incinerating the original…I patched together remnants of the original HX and another windscreen and got a 4.5 minute boil time, which seems to confirm the aluminum foil gauge has a lot to do with the performance. The HX and windscreen were partially incinerated again. I think I'm pushing the envelope for aluminum here.

SGT Rock
2005-05-04, 15:31
I have run into that barrier before. There is Ti windscreen material available at BackpackingLight which might be a good heat resistant option and it SHOULD also insulate some, although at that thickness it probably wouldn't do much at all. As to a stove body at that heat that would also have good heat characteristics and transfer you would have to look at silver or brass for best properties. Steel could do it too, but is not as good a heat conductor and it can oxidize.

Major Slacker
2005-05-04, 15:56
…Ti windscreen material…might be a good heat resistant option and…insulate some…a stove body…silver or brass…Steel…
I'll take a look at Ti for the windscreen. I think it's available in sheets at BPL, but somebody mentioned Ti tubing somewhere. If it comes in a gauge and diameter I can use that would be great.

I'll be scratching my head awhile over the HX material, though the aluminum flashing might work with the Ti windscreen. Have to wait and try it.

So far heat hasn't been an issue for the stove body, just the HX and windscreen. I can probably stick with the aluminum there.

Thanks, Sarge.

BTW, you (or any of you other stove weenies) going to Trail Days at Damascus? I'm planning to be there, then walk the AT for a couple of weeks.

Lanthar
2005-05-04, 17:15
ti tube - http://www.aerospacemetals.com/titanium.html#tubing

SGT Rock
2005-05-04, 17:26
I'm planning on going to Trail Days. At 10:00 and about 18:00 we are having WhiteBlaze get togethers at Dots.

Major Slacker
2005-05-04, 21:26
I'm planning on going to Trail Days. At 10:00 and about 18:00 we are having WhiteBlaze get togethers at Dots.
Like, each day or just Friday or…? Hope to see you there.

Never mind. I found the WB forum post. I was looking for it on the calendar. Doh!