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SGT Rock
2005-04-04, 12:29
I have been playing with the Atomic Fireball idea which is a stove similar to the Ion which wouldn't be as concerned with fuel efficiency, and more gear toward speed. I have engineered a stove that boiled water in about 3 minutes with around a half ounce of fuel (still working on exact numbers) that melted aluminum windscreens. In the development I have engineered a windscreen/stand combo that is made from titanium. It takes about $25 worth of titanium to make the stand/screen. Add to that a stove and labor, it would cost about $45 to sell one stove. The stove is made to work only with a pot that is about 4.75" - 5.5" in diameter - I have been working with the Evernew 0.9 L pot.

The cool benefit though is the stove can now burn wood similar to this stove: http://www.trailstove.com/index2.html except that mine would be able to come apart and nest inside a 5.5" pot and the stove, blow tube, and windscreen/stand should only weigh about 3.5 ounces.

I figure a packing list for a stove like this would be something like this:

3.5 ounces Stove
0.6 ounces for a 4oz fuel bottle
3.2 ounces of alcohol (4 fluid ounces)
2.5 ounces of fire starter (10 Vaseline soaked cotton balls)
0.2 ounce for a small zip lock to hold the cotton swabs
4.0 incs for a 0.9 L Evernew pot
0.8 ounces for a Scripto lighter
0.8 ounces for a pot cozy
15.6 ounces total

I figure that is still less start weight than a canister stove with the ability for unlimited cooking as long as you can find something flammable.

So, is it worth $45 to someone to get something like this? Should I even mess with it?

Oh, and I have a line on making my pot cozies so they should cost about $8 per unit. They are fabric and machine washable. They look like this: http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0322.JPG Is that something you would be interested in?

KLeth
2005-04-04, 13:02
45$ is somewhat cheaper than the KellyKettle, but then it's dual purpose and can be used to cook and not just boil water. Cool that it's dual/multifuel since some places in the world hasn't got much firewood/twigs laying around.

It's around the same price as the Sierra Zip but is lighter.

I would think it could sell with the right amount of marketing!
Maybe you should make a tiny grill as an accessory :smile:

If it wouldn't be twice as expensive to have shipped to Denmark I would consider one :biggrin:

SGT Rock
2005-04-04, 13:11
here are some pictures of the aluminum prototype, they are bad pictures of a rough prototype. The final product would be a lot cleaner looking:

http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0340.jpg

I timed the stove using alcohol (the first picture) using 1/2 ounce of alcohol it took 4:00 to reach what looked like a rolling boil. Of course this was only visual. My guess would be I would need about 0.6 - 0.75 ounces of fuel to consistently boil 16 ounces of water in it, and it would probably be about 4:30 for a normal boil time. But this is with an aluminum screen/stand. With titanium I could probably get better

http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0342.jpg

In the second picture you may be able to see the start of the flame from a handful of 3" long pencil thick sticks.

Lanthar
2005-04-04, 13:53
I assume the big hole faces away from the wind when in alc mode and into the wind when in wood mode?

Also, why do you need a blow tube? Is it just for beginning part of the fire?

I assume you are planning on the blow tube being completely seperate instead of connected like it looked like in that trailstove pic?

yes a small grill could be a cool accesory

what do you need, 7 pieces of the Ti available from thru-hiker?

definitely a cool idea, but not sure how it would sell. of course if the whole package looks real clean, it would probably sell just fine.

what kind of burn / boil time / effeciency do you get with an ion stove?

Once you get down exactly what it looks like, I might be more intersted in a kit that would adapt an ion for use in it... even if you had to make a little stand to get the ion to the right height.

did you design your panels so that they nest in the pot?

If so, You may want to see what other pots they would fit in. (though the evernew seems to be the "standard" any more)

Oh, and the cozy looks cool.

SGT Rock
2005-04-04, 14:09
Yes, the hole faces away from the wind, unless you want to turn it into a real forge and keep feeding it wood. I found that I could easily turn it in and out of the wind based on my preference. The blow tube can help get the fire going, and I also found if I wanted to get the fire to burn hat quickly, a few puffs did the trick. I haven't added a tube to mine, I was going to go get some short aluminum tube today and see how big a difference it makes, but I can see why it would be nice. The tube would be a curved aluminum tube about 6" long that would just stick into one of the top corner joints.

I'll look for a 5.5" grill. It wouldn't be hard at all to put a small round grill surface on the stove.

I would need 5 pieces that are 4"x3.5" and one 5" square piece. The problem is Thru-hiker doesn't sell them that big, but I do have another supplier. Last time I had to buy a 4' sheet though.

The Ion stove will boil 16 ounces of water in about 12 minutes with 15ml of fuel consistently. I have got it to do it with as little as 12 ml of fuel at room temperature with no wind. The new Atomic Fireball takes more fuel to do it in less time. It would take making a little stand to go inside the windscreen/stand to make an Ion work with this set up.

blackdog
2005-04-04, 14:27
Add some Winiarski thinking to the design:
http://www.aprovecho.net/at/rocketstove.htm

* A short detachable feeder tube with "shelf" in the square hole perhaps?

* The pot might be part of the "chimney" somehow?

* Wood ash from earlier hikers could be used to insulate.

And... Any improvement to the rocket stove design would also benefit people in the third world. A reward in itself.

just my .02SEK

Rosaleen
2005-04-04, 15:07
Sarge-

You know me, too stubbornly thrifty to buy what I can make. This looks like a lot of work. I MIGHT go with something like Risk's coffee stove. Cheap and easy enough to make. (imrisk.com)

Check out the titanium foil for windscreens sold at backpackinglight.com. If you can buy directly fom the source, it may run cheaper for you.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/ultralight_titanium_foil.html

Hope to see you at Trailfest!

Rosaleen

Lanthar
2005-04-04, 16:51
Ti Foil gets pricey for the good it actually does, how about some simple stainless? Could even get 321 which is a SS/Ti Alloy


Other Foil (http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/Framework.asp?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=3450&CtlgEdition=111&fam=stainlesssteel&ppe=26&ppr=1&psm=0&psl=5&)

Rock, You can get bulk Ti (http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/Framework.asp?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=3429&CtlgEdition=111&fam=titanium&ppe=5&ppr=1&psm=3&psl=2&) from McMaster but it's pricey...

I'm working on a sketch for you to be able to make it out of 4.5x5.5 pieces... I'll email it to you at some point

SGT Rock
2005-04-04, 17:15
That is a lot more than I pay for it.

I was thinking that if I can make the sides work from aluminum, that the overall cost could go way down, but the effectiveness of the screen would be slightly less because it would loose that insulating property the Ti could offer. I could make the 5 sides from aluminum and the bottom out of Ti so it wouldn't melt through. I could probably make a stove for a material cost of about $8 to $9. Add some labor, and I could sell them for about $24 each. I just made a new stove with 0.025" aluminum which is about the same weight as 0.016 titanium and the entire stove came to 101 grams with stove, screen/stand, and blow tube. That is about 3.56 ounces

Lanthar
2005-04-04, 17:57
Actually, wouldn't it be a better idea to make the sides out of Ti and the base out of thicker aluminum? or maybe even SS? That way you keep the insulation?

Then again, that will increase the cost. It seems to be that the kicker is getting the base in a big enough piece not the sides. I have a sketch of sides that you can make big enough hex out of three pieces of 4.5x5.5 Ti. The kicker is the plate in the bottom.

SGT Rock
2005-04-04, 18:02
Pictures of the newer Atomic Fireball in aluminum:

http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0343.jpg

http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0344.jpg

http://hikinghq.net/ionstove/images/100_0345.jpg

I plan to order another sheet of titanium today.

blackdog
2005-04-04, 18:30
I would call this design "the Pentagon", but hey, that's just my opinion. :)

SGT Rock
2005-04-04, 19:43
Maybe I will call it that. The Atomic Fireball with Pentagon stand. I just tested the Pentagon with the Trangia burner - worked great. That makes it just 0.5 ounces more than the original Trangia Westwind stand.

KLeth
2005-04-05, 01:43
Add some Winiarski thinking to the design:
http://www.aprovecho.net/at/rocketstove.htm
* A short detachable feeder tube with "shelf" in the square hole perhaps?
* The pot might be part of the "chimney" somehow?

Nice idea, but maybe not for the "Pentagon"! But for a "rocketstove"-type add a Kelly/Volcano kettle type like : http://www.imrisk.com/kettle/ultrakettle.htm
And the "pot" is a part of the chimney. Elsewise the chimney will probably not get high enough to provide the required draft to get the real benefits.
Just took some damage to my head . . .
. . . For "rocketstove" pot - an old fashion circular baking form (originally designed for household gas stoves) those with a topless cone in the middle . . . . ?!?
The problem with draft based stoves are that they easily gets unstable due to the height of the stove(I guess that's why the
TrailStove is coneshaped). But the idea is great :biggrin: .

The "Pentagon" looks very good.

I'm looking into making an inverted downdraft woodgas stove :dancing2: Like Risk' http://www.imrisk.com/woodgas/ddstove.htm

SGT Rock
2005-04-05, 06:28
I tried making one of those Kelty/volcano stoves once. I really messed it up bad.

peter_pan
2005-04-05, 09:38
Rock,

I think the design of this stove is quite good... A practical knock down alcohol or wood burner is a great combination that is about the ultimate in versitility....Speed is not the most important issue , especially if it puts the light weight materials at their limits....4-4.5 minutes to a rolling boil is fine IMHO....beats heck out of the 6-7 minute non-pressurised models.


I'm using a windstopper fleece cozy for a kitchen set up....works good ...besure to make it big enough for easy instation on a hot pot....need an extended slit opening in coordination with the draw string to accommdate the handles....nylon doesn't work as well with a hot pot just off the stove....

Watching your progress on this one...

Pan

Lanthar
2005-04-05, 11:13
I'm looking into making an inverted downdraft woodgas stove :dancing2: Like Risk' http://www.imrisk.com/woodgas/ddstove.htm

That's the design I based mine off of. Work's hella good. Will boil about a quart of water with no windscreen in light to no wind, in cold weather, on one charge / batch. I'm still working on what I'm going to use as a wind screen. I'm thinking my stove wind screen will be a slighlty larger can that will double as the pot stand (no rods to lose that way) then I just need a foil pot windscreen, though honestly I don't think it needs it.

SGT Rock
2005-04-06, 20:06
Went up to Mt Collins shelter last night to help with some trail magic for this year's thru-hiker class. I played with the stove while I was there. I boiled (maybe, I only visually call it a boil) 16 ounces of water last night in a wind with a little over 1/2 ounce of alcohol, but flames are so inefficient. I am trying to think of a more controlled way to do this because it just looks sloppy. It took only 4:00.