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Buggyman
2005-05-02, 03:23
I was sitting around thinking about alcohol stoves tonight and it occurred to me that maybe the lowly Trangia weighs less than it might appear when all the factors are considered.

The Trangia weighs about 4 ozs with the simmer ring and screw top. Yes that is heavy when compared to the Ion stove or a Pepsi stove that may weigh less than .5oz.

Lets say that you are out in the field with your Pepsi stove and you put 1/2 oz of alcohol in it to boil 16 oz of water. But you mis-judge the alcohol because it is windy and the stove goes out before the water is hot enough. Now you have to wait untill the stove cools down, refill it to continue with the burn. You lose some fuel becasue your water has cooled a little with all your fooling around. You get your stove going again and the water boils, but there is some alcohol left over because you put too much in this time because you didn't want it to go out again. You can either let it burn off, or extinguish the stove and try to pour the excess back in the bottle, but you risk spilling some. You lose more fuel.

The Trangia holds 3-4 oz of alcohol, so even if it is windy there is enough to boil your water without it burning out. After your water boils, you throw the simmer ring on to extinguish the flame, and after it cools you put on the screw top. You can carry the stove around with alcohol in it now, you don't have to pour the extra fuel back in the bottle and risk spilling some. If you are on a short trip you may not even have to carry a fuel bottle. And remember, the Trangia is pretty efficient to begin with.

Maybe I'm just trying to justify the fact that I have a Trangia, but it seems to me that on a long hike you might not have to carry as much fuel because of these factors. Less fuel is less weight to carry, but I don't know if it would make up for the extra weight of the Trangia.


Just a thought! I'm not even Swedish! :captain:

tinny3
2005-05-02, 04:20
I don't know this for a fact or from personal experience but i have read that the average sodacan stove and also most canister stoves are only 30 % efficient. the Trangian is 70% efficient.It does this by not putting out a really hot flame that can be wasted but instead goes with a very low output that the pot can absorb. Like everything fast there is a price to pay for speed.

KLeth
2005-05-02, 05:51
Don't know about the 70% efficiency - Could be right.
I've used Trangia quite a bit and it's most efficient when embedded in the full Trangia kitchen e.g. the 27-5. - Then I would truly belive it's 70% efficient.
But then again a BP burner installed in the same kitchen also has a very high efficiency (2 persons: 2 hot meals a day, baking and coffee/chocolate <51g gas a day).

SGT Rock
2005-05-02, 08:41
Using a general assumption that it should take 9ml of fuel to boil one pint of water at sea level when both the water and air are around room temperature (if I remember my test right) I found the trangia to need 15ml of fuel, which makes it 61% efficient.

tinny3
2005-05-02, 21:09
Thanks --you got to admit 61% isn't bad for a stove this simple. Have you tested the ION and come up with an Efficiency number for it? i have been baking with my ION and i love it.

SGT Rock
2005-05-02, 22:07
Honestly I haven't tinny, but BPL told me they got it to boil on 11ml, this would make it about 81% efficient.

Major Slacker
2005-05-03, 16:12
…maybe the lowly Trangia weighs less than it might appear when all the factors are considered…about 4 ozs with the simmer ring and screw top…holds 3-4 oz of alcohol…After your water boils, you throw the simmer ring on to extinguish the flame, and after it cools you put on the screw top. You can carry the stove around with alcohol in it…you may not even have to carry a fuel bottle…might not have to carry as much fuel…Less fuel is less weight to carry…About a year ago (maybe two), to address issues similar to those quoted above, I made this pseudo Trangia from one of those weird little camp stove fuel cans I found at Big Lots (also at WalMart, Dick's and Ace Hardware):

1. Remove the inner seal and wick,
2. dump out the diethylene glycol (and save it for charcoal/fire starter),
3. add a fiberglass wick (rolled up rectangle of pipe wrap),
4. fill the can with about 6 oz. of denatured alcohol (It'll hold 8 oz. but works better if less than full.),
5. cut a stand from aluminum vent pipe and punch holes with a paper punch,
6. add a gasket to cap for a better seal,
7. cut a simmer ring / snuffer from the top of a Starbucks can with a second top to make it adjustable.

It weighs 2.3 oz. empty (2.1 oz. without the simmer accessory) and boils 16 oz. of water in about 7 minutes. (I don't know how much alcohol it uses.) The only problem I've had is the threads rusted and made it hard to open.

I have another, similar stove I made from a Sterno can. It weighs less, works about the same and fits my Orion pot stand, but I would have to dig it out and test it again to give you specs. I've noticed that after storing it for a while the alcohol very slowly leaked and/or evaporated. It probably doesn't seal completely.

Lanthar
2005-05-04, 10:30
define a while

Major Slacker
2005-05-04, 15:27
define a whileLike a month or two. I dug it out of the box today, and it seemed to be as full as it was when I put it away a month or so ago. If I recall I sealed it while it was still pretty hot the last time I put it away. I also added a loose fill of fiberglass as a wick the last time I messed with it. Both may have contributed to preventing fuel loss during long-term storage.

Sterno/Trangia specs:
8 minute boil time, 0.85 oz. empty stove and stand weight, 4 oz. max fuel capacity.

Lanthar
2005-05-04, 17:16
so, you won't lose a significant about of fuel while hiking

Major Slacker
2005-05-04, 21:13
…but even if you did, why would you type like you have a cold? Maybe cold hands or a computer virus?

so, you won't lose a significant about (amount?) of fuel while hiking
Right. You won't lose much, if any. Just be sure to seal it up tight. Sealing it while hot will create some vacuum pressure. Carrying an extra lid or having one in your jump/resupply box wouldn't hurt either.

Iceman
2005-05-05, 01:50
I am starting to lube the O ring and lid threads with a dab of vaseline from my vaseline saturated cotton balls (fire starters). Earlier this year I burned up an O ring which stuck to the top of the burner, and in the darkness of winter, I smoked it off at light up time. (very stinky) I have since polyurethaned the O ring permanently into the cap so this shouldn't happen again. The trangia lid just spins on and off very smoothly with this vaseline lube job, allowing me to crank down the lid snugly, and still get it off later.

Vaseline, don't leave home without it.

Major Slacker
2005-05-05, 10:18
…vaseline saturated cotton balls (fire starters)…Vaseline, don't leave home without it.Got any more uses for vaseline saturated cotton balls?

So far I haven't been able to justify carrying them just for starting fires. I don't often want a fire, and I'm already carrying fire starters -- a few matches, a tea light (BTW, I found citronella tea lights at the local dollar store.), trash, reading material and t.p. -- all of which have additional, primary functions.

Lanthar
2005-05-05, 12:59
…but even if you did, why would you type like you have a cold? Maybe cold hands or a computer virus?


:biggrin: no, sometimes my fingers type faster than my brain can keep up with and all that registers is that the word is not misspelled (even though it is the wrong word)... please note, I don't really type that fast, it's more that my brain gets kind of slow

deadeye
2005-05-05, 13:31
I am starting to lube the O ring and lid threads with a dab of vaseline from my vaseline saturated cotton balls (fire starters). Earlier this year I burned up an O ring which stuck to the top of the burner, and in the darkness of winter, I smoked it off at light up time. (very stinky) I have since polyurethaned the O ring permanently into the cap so this shouldn't happen again. The trangia lid just spins on and off very smoothly with this vaseline lube job, allowing me to crank down the lid snugly, and still get it off later.

Vaseline, don't leave home without it.

Be careful of the long-term effect of Vaseline on rubber parts. If they are latex, the Vaseline will dissolve them, and may have some effect on synthetics as well (hence the caveat not to use Vaseline with your condoms!). I lube the O-rings on my equipment with Armor-all or other silicone lube specifically meant for use on plastics & rubber

Nomad
2005-05-23, 02:25
You know what? I rcvd one of these Trangia stoves as a gift and its pretty darn cool.

Some of you gear heads wrap your opinion around this plz.

I'm one of these guys that actually "cooks" in the field. I'm team "Heavy Cream" I shave 2lbs of gear weight just so I can carry fresh fruit. I HATE most freeze dried food is why (chili mac is good tho). Anytime I have to carry Pepto tabs to supplement my weekly diet something is very wrong.

So this stove is up my alley. I'm a popcan stove kinda dude at heart so I'm lookin at it thinking. Heavy, crushproof, wide base, heavy, ADJUSTABLE SIMMER RING, high fuel capacity, rock solid stand, heavy, thick metal for deep heat transfer, extinguishable, and can capture unused fuel!!! Which is great for a four season mulit-environment chef. Did I mention its kind of heavy w/the stand.

I'm still experimenting with cozies, skip all that :)

I'm new here but I've seen the techy notes around so i know some of you guys (and gals?) know your stuff. Maybe this is old hat but its not to me so...

Anyway the current stand (westwing) elevates the stove leaving room enough for a pre-heater candle/bottle-cap under it. I would just put some fuel on the top surface and try to preheat from there. Should work fine, but I like the engineering so far. The stove is suspended so the frozen ground won't conduct it out. Bonus. Throw away ground reflector. Inventor musta been from somewhere cold.

When you cook different foods in different amounts in different weather it tends to shoot your fuel measurements in the arse. Either you go light and refill/reheat to finish or you go extra and burn off the unused. So the "cap it off" feature is wowing me. I didn't give it enough credit b/4. It makes a huge difference to ppl like me who do more than heat water. And those ppl that aren't as precise as others

I'm used to babysitting popcan stoves and brasslites hoping the wind doesn't send my minestrone into the dirt. (I'll be getting/making another wider stand for my popcan stove later) Its so windy so often I made a windscreen with holes in only one side and have had to dig a hole for the base to sit in. Lake effect wind.

Popcans can simmer if you mix in some water but its tricky business and not that great if you change up or mix fuels. I've seen simmer rings but they're not adjustable which sometimes matters in summer/winter and especially windy deals.

MY BIG POINT is this. We all know what the convection column is. When a popcan stove flowers and comes back together in hte center we feel the heat several inches/feet from the burner. A brasslite has a center hole so it naturally creates one. I haven't looked it up but a brasslite should outperform most others because of its unique center-flame spread. Its heat actually goes thru the pots contents, not the side which will undoubtedly disspate it. (I'm no whiz kid. Going on a hunchs here)

This trangia would do much better if the pot wasn't so darn close to the burner. Its essentially crushing its own fire and disrupting the column and making itself waste BTUs becasue its own thermals are backflowing.

Look at this flame spread...http://www.clikstand.com/ (http://www.clikstand.com/) That's all wrong IMO. Maybe that works on a stove. Maybe stoves need upgraded. but I know that if you lift the pot 6 inches or so up from the source instead of 1 1/2 that the heat won't travel into the sidewalls (or worse AROUND the pot) and into the air. And titanium is great at dissapating heat (compared to my aluminum stuff)

To prove my point I can set the simmer ring on this thing and sit there for 10min and it won't boil 2cups. If I lift the pot 6" and let the colum form it immediately begins to perc. Set it down...the flame crushes...and the boiling stops. Up...starts to bil again. repeat. Try it.

I flipped the stand over which puts them farther apart but the simmer rings wont fit with out me cutting on it and now the stove body is on the ground.

So before I start I guess my question is, what's the best way to make a quality new/taller stand for this little guy? Use the westwing for a template and just make it taller? I'm hoping that if the heat hits it dead center that the thing will become much more efficient. If it doesn't I'll shelf it. If it does..I'll grin..and probably still shelf it. Unless the cook times improve drastically. Then we can patent it and all become mildly rich.

I don't think it will be the best stove ever per-se, but I do think it will be the best it can be.

BTW, the reason I'm so into this is I was messing around with this thing with a full tank and with the simmer ring on most the time and I have gotten over an HOUR of burn time! And there still some fuel in there! That got my attention. If I can optimize this some I think it would be a very efficient setup. Even w/my trusty 1-liter titanium pot.

Sheesh. That's a long post. I never read ones that long.

Thanx for any replies.

KLeth
2005-05-23, 03:25
Take note that the Trangia Westwind is basicly just an accessory/supplement.
The burner was originally designed for use in a stormkitchen :
http://home.smelinkweb.com/Assembler.asp?TreeID=1454&CustomerID=1758

Main principle:
http://www.smelinkweb.com/imagelibrary/1465/matlagningskiss.jpg

Actually I've never seen a Westwind in Sweden, where the Trangia is produced :smile:

SGT Rock
2005-05-23, 08:20
Did you look at the titanium stands I make for Trangia. You could do something similar, just change the height.

KLeth
2005-05-24, 01:39
I meassured the distance between pot bottom and burner top in our Trangia stormkitchen to 25mm. When the pot is in place there is one a good 10mm between the top windscreen and the sides of the pot.

I'll guess that it using the "Trangia Ionization Kit" will take the Trangia somewhat further than the Westwind by itself. But still it will not have the "heat lock/delay" that the Trangia lid doubles as.

Does the "Trangia Ionization Kit" suspend the burner over the ground ?

SGT Rock
2005-05-24, 08:45
No it doesn't. I found you can get the same effect by taking a piece of cardboard and wraping it in aluminum foil as a bottom heat reflector. The idea is to keep the heat from leeching out the bottm, and after playing with the Trangia, one of the flaws in the design is if air gets in there it is totally syspended and convective heat loss plus the overload of air to the flame screw up the dynamics of the stove. An insulated system that reflects heat under it and a good windscreen are the things the Westwind are missing.

Lanthar
2005-05-24, 12:13
Nomad, that's a very interesting theory/comment you have on the convection column idea... in theory the rising column of air will "pull in" any heated gases creating a very hot spot higher than most have been using, but capturing all of the btus at that spot... the key is keeping that column protected from wind as it will completely fubar the column...

also, doing anything to make the pot stand taller will make the whole system less stable, but I think you may be on to something...

Nomad
2005-05-24, 17:02
I saw were Rock was surprised at the efficiency of this stove in a review but I missed any further articles/modifications. Where is the info on your stand Bro?


@KLeth- Good point. Spot on. I've seen the storm kitchens as of just recently but the diagram sez alot to me. Basically what I guess is that they're actually capturing the lost therms and supporting more favorable conditions for a more fully formed convection column. Which makes total sense after you schooled me on the fact that the westwind is a supplement. Mine came packaged as one unit so I wouldn't have picked up on that. Thanx!

Love the solid windscreen and breather base Tangia uses. Hate the implied weights.
I can't totally tell by the "how it works drawings" but it looks like a kettle in one pic and the other appears as if the cookwear is fully enclosed. The Trangia site shows the fry pan even higher up supported on "legs" so I'm not sure what's going on quite yet

So that puts the flame only about 35mm from the pot surface? About 1 1/4" right? not as far as I would have suspected. I'll take a westwing measurement tonite and compare.

And for the record. I'm used to nearly spilling brasslites and popcans. I always use a 1liter or bigger. So a westwind is considered rock solid by me. I always cook with about 4cups so that gives me a different perspective overall. I have MUCH better luck with flatter pans than I do taller ones as far as heat goes. But all my titanium was brought to me by Santa so give me any info on a better pot design. (got a snowpeak 1liter right now. very nice piece overall)

Its funny. Titanium can lose heat so fast some things wont cook well for me because of it.
Anyway, if I duplicate these aspects in a lightwieght pkg it should be a decent setup.

1) suspend the burner. Or use an insulator. I've had great luck w/foil wrapped cardboard. Np with that either way.

2) replicate the factorys large windscreen and base w/our own. Hello heavy duty foil. Np

3) elevate the cook surface and try to beat down the boil times. That would just mean taller and is what its all about this time


How rigid is sheet titanium? tall will need to have some sidewall strength.


@Lanthar. Yeah, I predict a large change of thinking will come around in stoves in the near future. One way or the other the efficiencies will have to be improved. They can't make them too much lighter, but better burns will lighten overall fuel loads.

So we'll watch and see what develops next. I'm guessing it might be in the areas of
-Improved heat absorbtion and insulation of cookwear (can't believe there isnt more cozies in the world)
-Utilization of flame dimensions, like our column idea.
-Or capturing of lost heat like an enclosed system or (just looked at this) the fluxring the jetboil uses to catch and transfer escaping heat.


Thanx for the help my friends!

SGT Rock
2005-05-24, 20:25
I've got 0.016" titanium sheet which is tested to 5 pounds with a little bit of observed bending - but nothing bad, the stand still is as stable as a Westwind stand. I do have some recently acquired 0.025" titanium sheet I am going to try and make a new set of legs to replace the steel ones on my MSR Simmerlite with when I get the chance. The sheet is fairly large, so if you come up with something you want cut in a thicker grade I may be able to fabricate it for you.

KLeth
2005-05-25, 06:20
Love the solid windscreen and breather base Tangia uses. Hate the implied weights.
Well I don't think the weight is that bad - I've purchased Ti lid/pan and pots, so there goes 500g. If desired it's possible to cut out areas of the lower windscreen and upper windscreen replaceing it with alu foil to reduce weight further. But unmodified it's rock soild and can't be blown away nor tipped over even under very windy conditions (hurricanes and tornados not included).
The worst part is that it's quite bulky.

I can't totally tell by the "how it works drawings" but it looks like a kettle in one pic and the other appears as if the cookwear is fully enclosed. The Trangia site shows the fry pan even higher up supported on "legs" so I'm not sure what's going on quite yet
Yes, the enclosed setup is very efficient, that's why we don't use a kettle with our Trangia. The lid/pan functions both as lid and "heat-lock" slowing down the rising of the hot gasses.

The pan is used on the same small pot-holders mounted in the upper windscreen, they're just flipped the other way to support the pan. This setup only works well with the alcohol burner since its flame will rise quite high and heat the pan very well.

We've got a gas burner plugin for our Trangia storm kitchen and it fits snugly into the windscreen.

Nomad
2005-05-25, 13:16
Aaah, I see. That's very very ingenious with the heat trap. Especially if your operating in sub zero climes. Of course in Norway they have things like permafrost and other environmental hurdles to overcome. Never really seen that b/4. Impressive. I'm going to check around on some storm kitchens on ebay and find some more reviews and specs. That info piqued my curiosity. Greatly appreciated KLeth!! Big help.
Because of my needs for long burn times I'm going to pursue the trangia some more. Its more adapatable for my group needs.

I've learned more lightwieght options and geek-facts from this site in a week than I have in the last year of experience. Joy.

I think I may also subscribe to that Backpacking lite site. Any opinions on that one friends? About 25$.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html?id=Zeowv5sU:69.95.78.62

Or is thier some other lite-sites I could frequent in its stead?


PS- KLeth- Do you actually stroll around with a pack the size of the one in your Avatar all the time. If yes, you must have the strength of a human packmule. Wow. I think that pack is bigger than I am.

@Rock- Absolutely great. That would be phenomenal. I like the idea of a thicker grade. That might be best. Liquids are what? About 8lbs to the gallon and I'm working with maybe a deadwieght of 3lbs all told not including any other pressure (like wind) so that may be better.
My place is for sale so shoppers keep disrupting my experiments. Let me take a few notes and then I'll shoot you some simple template ideas. If you can help fab something up that would save me the trial and error. I'll send you some reimbursement up front for the help of course.

Also, I'm looking really hard at the ion. Real piece of work there. Might just hafta buy one of those for solo. Seems easier than making it, seeing how I have zero material on hand.

SGT Rock
2005-05-25, 13:57
My recommendation is after you get an idea you think works, get some 5x8 cards and make an "origami" model. Test it with some sort of light container like a pie pan or something. This process has helped me to figure out errors in planning on quite a few occasions.

About the Ion, I only recommend it if you plan to do a pint of water at a time and don't care about speed. If you want to do more water at a time or need some speed, then it isn't the stove for you. After much requesting, I plan to come up with something that will boil a quart in about 7 minutes and a pint in about 5. I'm not sure exactly what it will look like yet, but most likely it will simply look like a bigger version of the Ion with a different burner pattern. But I will try to keep it light and as fuel efficient as possible.

AddyB
2005-05-25, 14:59
Yeah but Sarge, the Ion's not very efficient. I've got a Trangia, it's not that bad of a stove, but then again, it's slower than all hell. I'm thinking of purchasing off ebay an old "Svea 123" like my Dad used to climb with way back in the dark ages. They're freakin small, and use white gas, with a 75 minute burn time off one tank.

Okay, so Alcohol stoves are light, TRANGIA'S ARE NOT. The Ion is (like you said) the world's lightest alcohol stove. I'll give you that, but it's not very durable compared to other stoves out there.

GRRR it's always a trade-off between size, weight, and efficiency. To me, the perfect stove would be the size of the Ion, but with the ability to burn multi-fuels. And you can forget about cannister stoves, once you get down to the nitty-gritty of the fuel in one, they don't pump out enough pressure anymore. Plus, you can't refill them, so you gotta pack these cannisters with you, PLUS, when they're empty you gotta hump them out.

Ah well, back to the drawing board.....

Adam

SGT Rock
2005-05-25, 15:42
Yeah but Sarge, the Ion's not very efficient. I've got a Trangia, it's not that bad of a stove, but then again, it's slower than all hell. I'm thinking of purchasing off ebay an old "Svea 123" like my Dad used to climb with way back in the dark ages. They're freakin small, and use white gas, with a 75 minute burn time off one tank.

Well I think that depends on your definition of efficient. Efficiency can be rated in many ways - speed efficiency, weight efficiency, volume efficiency, price efficiency, etc. My stove is tweaked to provide maximum fuel efficiency and weight efficiency for a pint of water and that is it. The Ion, and all the fuel it needs for 75 minutes of burn, and a pot, and the windscreen, all weigh less than a Svea 123 does without even adding gas to it. So to my way of cooking, it is the most efficient stove there is next to Esbit for weight efficiency but better than Esbit for price efficiency. Sure Gas has more BTUs, but at the cost of valves, hardened containers, pumps, burner heads, etc. It is like putting a jet engine in a tank - sure there is a better power to weight ratio - but it takes a huge transmission and air intake system. The trade off is worse than the solution when you look at it that way.



Okay, so Alcohol stoves are light, TRANGIA'S ARE NOT. The Ion is (like you said) the world's lightest alcohol stove. I'll give you that, but it's not very durable compared to other stoves out there.

Again, it depends on what you plan to do with it. I've got stoves more delicate than the Ion that have lasted for dozens of trips without degradation because they aren't stepped on, used to pound stakes with, cast over cliffs, etc. If you only ever use a stove to boil water then put it away, how "durable" or rather OVER-durable does it need to be? I would say that a SVEA 123 is probably like parts on some Model T cars - sure parts of them still work but there are things out there that will work a lot better that are not as durable. Make something as durable as it needs to be and take care of it, not durable enough to survive a nuclear blast and lament that nothing lighter out there can do it as well. :D



GRRR it's always a trade-off between size, weight, and efficiency. To me, the perfect stove would be the size of the Ion, but with the ability to burn multi-fuels. And you can forget about cannister stoves, once you get down to the nitty-gritty of the fuel in one, they don't pump out enough pressure anymore. Plus, you can't refill them, so you gotta pack these cannisters with you, PLUS, when they're empty you gotta hump them out.[quote]

I agree with you there. I think the Vapor technology will eventually make alcohol stoves sort of obsolete when you can make a stove that has the size and simplicity of a can stove that can use gasoline. The Modular Individual Water Heater was about 3 ounces at the last time I had some hard data on it. Imagine a fuel tight container with a simple titanium three leg support that can burn a half ounce of gas by just touching the head with a match to start the capillary flow!

[quote]

Ah well, back to the drawing board.....

Adam

Good luck. I just advise you to first decide what you really want out of a stove then either find one that meets your requirements or make one that meets your requirements. Decide what you can and cannot live with or without and then make compromises and choices based on that.

KLeth
2005-05-26, 02:09
Of course in Norway they have things like permafrost and other environmental hurdles to overcome. Never really seen that b/4. Impressive. I'm going to check around on some storm kitchens on ebay and find some more reviews and specs. That info piqued my curiosity. Greatly appreciated KLeth!! Big help. Glad to be of assistance! When scouting for storm kitchens it's better not to buy one than buy the wrong one. DON'T buy a "Adventure Camp" because as a storm kitchen is a worthless piece of junk - Or if it's very cheap it's 3 cheap pots and a cheap kettle :laugh:
Keep in mind that you can carry quite a lot of fuel for the weight of a stormkitchen.

P.s. Most of Norway isn't that cold :)



PS- KLeth- Do you actually stroll around with a pack the size of the one in your Avatar all the time. If yes, you must have the strength of a human packmule. Wow. I think that pack is bigger than I am. For work :cguru: I use something a bit smaller :ridinghor :wink:
The picture is from our last hike in northern Sweden. But remember the pack could have been stuffed full of socks, pillows, sleepingbag, sleepingpad and towels - Just to look impressive.

I bought the Optimus SVEA 123 some time ago - It's a nice little dependable stove. When hiking 2-3 weeks in mid-nowhere I like my gear to be dependable and solid. But as mentioned earlier on in this thread there is no need for it to be able to take direct shell hit :dito:
We're looking into stoves for our trip to Greenland next year, the problem is that we would like to use gas but can't expect that we can get anything but aviation fuel, gasoline or kerosene. Also I will not leave civilization depending on only one fuel type and one stove - That's why this year we either bring along our Sierra Zip or maybe the SVEA. Last year we had troubles with our fuel and I will not have that worry again.

I still really like the concept of the Ti dual purpose (woodstove) windscreen for the ION.

Nomad
2005-05-27, 18:58
Glad to be of assistance! When scouting for storm kitchens it's better not to buy one than buy the wrong one. DON'T buy a "Adventure Camp" because as a storm kitchen is a worthless piece of junk - Or if it's very cheap it's 3 cheap pots and a cheap kettle :laugh:
Keep in mind that you can carry quite a lot of fuel for the weight of a stormkitchen. Copy that. Duly noted.

P.s. Most of Norway isn't that cold :) Just going on sterotypes and construction trades horror stories. :)

For work :cguru: I use something a bit smaller :ridinghor :wink:
The picture is from our last hike in northern Sweden. But remember the pack could have been stuffed full of socks, pillows, sleepingbag, sleepingpad and towels - Just to look impressive. Well, it does, "look" impressive. As does your look of skeletal sag ;)

I bought the Optimus SVEA 123 some time ago - It's a nice little dependable stove. When hiking 2-3 weeks in mid-nowhere I like my gear to be dependable and solid. But as mentioned earlier on in this thread there is no need for it to be able to take direct shell hit :dito:
We're looking into stoves for our trip to Greenland next year, the problem is that we would like to use gas but can't expect that we can get anything but aviation fuel, gasoline or kerosene. Also I will not leave civilization depending on only one fuel type and one stove - That's why this year we either bring along our Sierra Zip or maybe the SVEA. Last year we had troubles with our fuel and I will not have that worry again.

Gas? Hmm, all I can say is that I initally used a Coleman featherwieght dual fuel. Heavy, but bombproof. Total solid performer. Uses gas w/no problems

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/campmor/85208.html

Used one for 3yrs and sold it on Ebay and got my money back. *shrugs* If all you can get is unleaded than this will do it. It sez to preheat at low temp but even at 8degrees it fired up fine for me.

I still really like the concept of the Ti dual purpose (woodstove) windscreen for the ION.

Still have to many shoppers outsing me from my crib while they show it daily. Maybe one day soon I'll get to experiment some more with that trangia
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. That was weird. Quotes must not count, lol.

Nomad
2005-06-08, 01:21
My recommendation is after you get an idea you think works, get some 5x8 cards and make an "origami" model. Test it with some sort of light container like a pie pan or something. This process has helped me to figure out errors in planning on quite a few occasions.



Ok, I'm back after some experimenting.

I took your advice Rock and made up some test shapes.

I used some card board and copied the westwind. I cut off most of the bottom and made it taller. I liked the flame shape and was real happy w/the simmer ring combo. Acted alot like a brasslite right before it went up in flames. :hmpf:

Next I made a neat little version with tall sides that doubled as a windscreen and pot stand all inone. I left one side cut back so I could get at it and use the simmer ring. That one I sprayed with water as it burned and I still got boil signs around 6 minutes before it burned to the ground. Might burn too hot or fail in a strong wind. Hard too say.

Man my garage smells like a forest fire...

...but these will weigh alot less than a trangia campset and work much better than the westwind.

Anyway I would like to see if you could cut me a couple templates out of some of that titanuium stock when you get time. I was thinking about mailing a couple patterns over for review and possible fabrication.

Let me know.

Thanx

Lanthar
2005-06-08, 13:35
Nomad, I've been thinking a lot about what you've been saying about the heat column effect, you said that you were getting good concentration of the heat at about 6 inches above the burner?

I'm going to have some time while I'm as Boy Scout camp to do nothing but mess with ideas going around in my head, I have an idea that might work out nicely... maybe... and if i can combo it with the batch loaded woodstove idea I have, it may be a sweet set up with the trangia burner...

just gotta remember to take my digi-cam to camp...

Nomad
2005-06-08, 19:02
Nomad, I've been thinking a lot about what you've been saying about the heat column effect, you said that you were getting good concentration of the heat at about 6 inches above the burner?

I'm going to have some time while I'm as Boy Scout camp to do nothing but mess with ideas going around in my head, I have an idea that might work out nicely... maybe... and if i can combo it with the batch loaded woodstove idea I have, it may be a sweet set up with the trangia burner...

just gotta remember to take my digi-cam to camp...

Heck yeah. Let me know how that goes. I'm determined to find a happy medium using a trangia. I think they will test-out better w/something other than that westwing do-hickey.

I had trouble with the 6" once I introduced some wind. Just like you said. Maybe a little less would be better. All it needs is enough height to form a center flame. Using the simmer wide open gave it a nice brasslite/candle looking flame, but it burned kinda cold. My templates burned down before i could get good timed results.

Now if a reallly creative person *wink-wink* copied the trangia stormkitchens theory and made a pot-stand out of a tall windscreen (just vent the bottom) I think they might be on to something. Call it a simple combustion chimey?

And maybe someone will figure out a good cozy that we can cook in if we keep the fire centered on the bottom middle.

PS- these camera phones have decent daylight cameras (nomad has a new motorola) so now its an emergency device...slash...research tool. I don't think it has a flash hidden in it tho so I'm not sure how well that will work out

Keep me posted Bro. I'm truly interested!!

Lanthar
2005-06-09, 13:22
Now if a reallly creative person *wink-wink* copied the trangia stormkitchens theory and made a pot-stand out of a tall windscreen (just vent the bottom) I think they might be on to something. Call it a simple combustion chimey?
And maybe someone will figure out a good cozy that we can cook in if we keep the fire centered on the bottom middle.


Shhhhhhhh...! Don't give away all of my secrets! No one must no about PROJECT FIRE CHIMNEY until it is sprung on the unsuspecting world...



PS- these camera phones have decent daylight cameras (nomad has a new motorola) so now its an emergency device...slash...research tool. I don't think it has a flash hidden in it tho so I'm not sure how well that will work out


ah... I will have my V551, so I will have a spare incase I forget... that's reassuring...

SGT Rock
2005-06-20, 21:16
Ok, I'm back after some experimenting.

I took your advice Rock and made up some test shapes.

I used some card board and copied the westwind. I cut off most of the bottom and made it taller. I liked the flame shape and was real happy w/the simmer ring combo. Acted alot like a brasslite right before it went up in flames. :hmpf:

Next I made a neat little version with tall sides that doubled as a windscreen and pot stand all inone. I left one side cut back so I could get at it and use the simmer ring. That one I sprayed with water as it burned and I still got boil signs around 6 minutes before it burned to the ground. Might burn too hot or fail in a strong wind. Hard too say.

Man my garage smells like a forest fire...

...but these will weigh alot less than a trangia campset and work much better than the westwind.

Anyway I would like to see if you could cut me a couple templates out of some of that titanuium stock when you get time. I was thinking about mailing a couple patterns over for review and possible fabrication.

Let me know.

Thanx

I am getting back next week. If you need something done, I'll be happy to try it out.

Nightwalker
2005-06-24, 06:54
I bought the Optimus SVEA 123 some time ago - It's a nice little dependable stove. When hiking 2-3 weeks in mid-nowhere I like my gear to be dependable and solid. But as mentioned earlier on in this thread there is no need for it to be able to take direct shell hit :dito:
I'm fiddling with re-making an Etowah design stove out of aluminum. I like the Ion-style pot support, and will probably use that type of design. The pot-stand of the Etowah is the heaviest component of the system.

The Etowah is very efficient, but at 4.5 oz., it's a real kludge. I think that it can be brought down to less than an ounce, and still be as sturdy and efficient as the original. I've re-made the windscreen/preheat can from aluminum, and it's 1/8 the weight of the original. The burner will probably be re-made from a couple of Red Bull cans. Again, I really like the Ti Ion stand.