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GregH
2005-10-14, 14:52
Although this is aimed at Sgathak I figured it would be interesting/informative to all:

Sgathak,
You've gotten me stuck on the Ontario RAT-7 with a straight (or plain) edge. I must have one. Your reasons for the straight blade make a lot of sense especially given that I'll also carry a folder (SOG Trident TF-3) with a serrated edge. I've seen the light for carrying a true survival knife which can do more than cut sandwiches.

Is your RAT-7 the 1095 carbon steel or the D2? I understand the 1095 is easier to sharpen in the field but I tend to prefer an anodized blade because it stays cleaner. What is your opinion?

Peterpan
2005-10-14, 21:33
The advantage to D2 is slightly better rustproofness, though it isn't a stainless, and better edge holding, if the the maker did his part. It is more work to sharpen, but not more difficult in any meaningful sense. Same skill, longer time to achieve edge. Overall D2 would be preferable in a survival type knife. For myself, I have never got on that well with D2, an prefer carbon, 1095 would be fine for me. I have never handled a RAT knife, so I don't know the specifics. I had several Grohmen knives, and the stainless was much easier to sharpen tha the carbon. I bought the carbon specifically to have better edge holding and easy sharpening, an easy knife. You never know for sure what you ae going to find.

Both steels come with a Phosphate finish, and I don't think you can anodize steel, just aluminum, maybe Ti. Not perfectly sure about that.

I make knives and woodworking tools, both by forging, and stock removal.

GregH
2005-10-15, 19:26
I'll admit that I don't know jack about anodization, but I do generally acquire blades with some type of treatment. My SOG Trident TF-3, for example, has a TiNi finish on the steel.

I am strongly considering buying the Ontario Knife RAT-7 and it sounds as if the D2 is the way to go.

Sgathak
2005-10-15, 19:48
Greg, Im a D2 fan... though 1095 is an excellent steel. Im not sure that the difference between the two steels is worth the price difference.

GregH
2005-10-16, 15:39
Sgathak,
Is your RAT-7 a 1095 or D2?

Spending a little extra to reduce rust sounds like a wise investment unless the 1095 really doesn't rust up that fast anyway. I won't be leaving the knife in a puddle of water but it will be used on a regular basis in the field.

Sgathak
2005-10-17, 02:54
Greg, Ive owned knives made of both materials. Currently, I have one of D2.

Icemanat95
2005-10-18, 16:31
Greg, Ive owned knives made of both materials. Currently, I have one of D2.

The powder coated coating of the D-2 version is probably going to provide more meaningful protection than the Zinc Phosphate coating on the 1095.

That said, the Zinc Phosphate finish is not, in itself a rust proofing material, but rather, like Parkerizing, a medium for holding oil against the blade. So if you get into a regular regimen of oiling your 1095 blade and rub it in real good so it really loads the pores of the phosphate, it should be fine. I've had very good luck rubbing in combination so fmaterials like Tetra Gun grease over a succession of days, really working it into the metal, wiping off all excess, then repeating the process, again and again on successive days. Even without a phosphate coating this had worked well for me. Just make sure that the day before you hit the field with the knife, you re-coat it one last time, (buffing off the excess). and it should be fine for a couple days of hard use. If you can bear the weight, tuck a gun cleaning patch well loaded with your chosen preservative grease or oil in a small ziplock bag and keep it handy for re-treating should teh knife see heavy use.

I've got a number of steel receivered firearms including a 60 year old M1 Garand that has survived this long in good condition through the regular application of oil over the parkerizing material.

Steel is an alloy of Iron with Carbon. The carbon allows the iron to be properly hardened through heat treating. Without carbon, all you've got is wrought iron. Too much carbon and you've got pig iron or cast iron (about 3% and over carbon content). You need at least medium carbon (around.50% carbon content) for steel to harden properly to take an edge. High carbon starts somewhere around .90% carbon. D2 is high carbon, 1095 is on the borderline.



1095 is:an unalloyed steel containing .95% carbon or thereabouts (the rest would be iron) and trace impurities. Admiral Steel adds between .3 and .5% Manganese to theirs. 1095 is a pretty decent sword steel as well...maybe a touch too much carbon, but that depends upon the skill of the heat treater.

D2 is: 85.35% Iron, 1.5% Carbon, 11.50 % chromium, .9% Vanadium and .75% Molybdenum. It is a wear resistant, deep quenching steel with difficult machining properties and good heat treating properties.

If you are going to carry a D2 steel knife, I would invest in a diamond sharpening plate to tune up the edge, you are going to need it should the knife grow dull. The extra cost reflects the extra work needed to machine the blade. D2 is notoriously difficult to work requireing more expensive abrasives for grinding and milling.

What is probably most important is the skill that goes into the heat treat. You can take a piece of cheap 1050 rail steel and with proper forging and heat treating, come out with a superlative knife or sword, or you can have a piece of trash if the smith and the heat treater do their job badly. A good knife is the result of good materials put through reliable processes, by skilled craftspeople. Cheap knives generally have cheap materials put through cheap processes by the cheapest labor available. Good knives are worth the money.

GregH
2005-10-19, 12:24
Iceman,
Thanks for the informative post. It is very helpful.

GregH
2005-10-22, 12:04
Ethan Becker's Campanion is a 5.25" blade made of "Exclusive high carbon steel (0170-6C)." Is this steel 1.7% carbon?

GregH
2005-11-02, 23:06
I'm looking seriously (using anticipated Christmas money!) at the Swamp Rat Ratweiler. Anyone using one around here?

GregH
2005-11-10, 00:55
Ordered the Ratweiler today and hope it will be in by Christmas. I'll post some pictures when it arrives.
Thanks to Iceman, Pan, and Sgathak for steel and blade profile advice.

Sgathak
2005-11-10, 02:14
That knife doesnt look too shabby. bit out of my price range though.

Icemanat95
2005-11-10, 15:43
Iceman,
Thanks for the informative post. It is very helpful.

You are most welcome.

GregH
2005-11-10, 21:42
That knife doesnt look too shabby. bit out of my price range though.

Yeah, I'm using Christmas money to fund it.

Sgathak
2005-11-10, 22:32
Im not really familiar with SR-101. Do you know what sort of properties it has?

GregH
2005-11-11, 11:53
Im not really familiar with SR-101. Do you know what sort of properties it has?

Jerry Busse of Busse Combat Knives answered this question over on the Swamp Rat board. Here is his reply:

Jerry:

“In the performance arena, it is nearly impossible to match what Swamp Rat is getting out of SR-101 in certain areas. The combination of incredible edge holding and toughness are unparalleled in the industry (except for INFI . . Sorry, I had to throw that in ) . D-2 has a much better resistance to the elements in an uncoated or satin finished format than does SR-101. D-2 rivals ATS-34 for stain resistance and in fact proves to be nearly identical in this area in our accelerated salt spray corrosion tests. Surprisingly, or maybe not so surprisingly, the heat treatment and finish of D-2 can have a major impact on its corrosion resistance. When done properly, a D-2 blade requires minimal maintenance. Cleaning and oiling are a good idea but simply wiping the blade off and keeping it fairly dry will usually be all that is required for proper care.

In edge holding D-2 is an excellent steel and easily surpasses SR-101 when cutting harder materials such as steel banding, bone, etc. . . In soft to medium materials they are very similar in edge holding. In chopping and high impact applications, SR-101 easily surpasses D-2. Because of this, I do not recommend that any D-2 blades be longer than 5”.

In extremely thin edges, such as are planned for the Hunter/Utility line, D-2 will prove to be a superior choice. The same qualities that make SR-101 a great steel for abuse, play against the house when it comes to extremely thin cross sections. Under contact (cutting not chopping) with harder materials such as metal banding, bone, rock, etc. . . SR-101 will roll whereas D-2 will prove to be the clear winner in these applications. However, if you do any heavy lateral stressing on a thin cross sectioned D-2 blade, you may be glad that your Swamp Rat D-2 blade is backed by the best no BS warranty in the industry!

D-2 also has a much greater resistance to high heat applications. What does that mean to you? Well, for us, as manufacturers that means that very fine edges can be satin finished with little worry of affecting the temper along the edge. This is not the case with SR-101, or any other simple “high carbon” steels, where extremely thin sections along the edge can be greatly affected by the heat generated from polishing.

So, in summary, for an uncoated blade with extremely thin cross sections, where cutting is the only intended application and hard materials such as bone, metal banding, etc…will be in contact with the edge, D-2 will prove to be a superior steel in edge holding and resistance to the elements.

In more abusive applications where cutting is to be coupled with prying, lateral stressing, high impact, and overall toughness, SR-101 will prove to be far superior to D-2.” --- Jerry Busse

So, when looking at the properties of these 2 steels you can see why we chose D-2 for our thin edged, bare metal, slicers.

Swamp Rat D-2 Tool Steel blades will prove to some of your favorite Rats. They will also stand as the only D-2 blades on the market that are covered against any and all major damage. . ."

SGT Rock
2005-11-11, 12:00
Speaking of knives, I assume you have all seen this one:
http://www.topsknives.com/products/knives/tracker.html

So is the knife really worth $300 or is the price more connected with who designed the knife than the actual quality and utility?

(it is 1095 for the record)

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-11, 12:15
Bench made knives start at about $300 +-. Factory knives that have little or no hand finishing don't have enough exotic material in them to be worth that.
The Randall website has a short, instructive discription of their knife making processes. Their knives run about $300 and are collectable enough to be worth about that on the used market; The real test of any item's value.

Sgathak
2005-11-11, 12:23
In my opinion, ALL tops knives are overpriced. Good knives, but overpriced.

The tracker knife has some interestng features to be sure. And you would probably find a use for all of the features at some point, if you spent enough time eatting grubs and sleeping under duff piles in the woods, but despite being a virtual fized blade swiss army knife, it has a fundamental problem in that it doesnt make for a very good "knife". Its not very functional for lots of the "camp chores" which realistically make up the bulk of any trail knifes job. Tom Brown recognized this as came out with "The Scout". Smaller, lighter, with a sharp point that gives you some sticking power if you need it... and your not getting anything you wouldnt get with say, a RAT-3 (for example, there are others) for $40 less.

SGT Rock
2005-11-11, 15:02
That RAT-3 is a nice looking knife.

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-11, 17:29
Hard for me to believe there is a lot if utility to be purchased in a fixed blade knife after you get to $50-$75. I'd accept the argument that more than one knife might be required to fulfill all tasks. I like a straight blade for fish gutting and a curved or drop point blade for skinning and boning big game. A straight blade is easier to sharpen, so that's the one I use for mundane camp chores.

GregH
2005-11-11, 18:21
My particular reason for getting a heavy steel, 7.5" fixed blade is more for the survival aspect of it. I solo camp in the mountains in Arkansas and Colorado and I want a piece that I can bet my life on. I'm willing to pay up to purchase a knife that has a good reputation for working for a living.
...Also, micarta handles are nice and Christmas is coming! :santaclau

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-11, 20:27
GregH,
You may have different uses for knives than I do. I usually carry a gun of some sort when camping so I'm not carrying a knife for protection. Is that what you mean by "survival aspect" of carrying a big knife? I mentioned on a thread a few weeks ago that I also carry a short machete for chopping/clearing/digging. That way my knives are saved for actually cutting stuff.
I find a large knife awkward for cleaning fish and even for slaughtering big game like elk, a 4" blade is plenty big. My Case medium stockmans knife has over 5" of total blade length that are razor sharp when I leave home. I have slaughtered two elk using only a large Western stockman before I broke it and decided that a fixed blade is a safer choice for those tasks. The long blade is reserved for slicing in the kitchen, the medium one is saved for personal hygene (minor surgery like splinters,etc.) and the little one is for whittling and general utility.
Don't get me wrong, I like a pretty knife. But pretty doesn't = utility.

GregH
2005-11-13, 14:32
Doug,
I didn't mean personal defense. I'm basically using it like you do your short machete.
The survival aspect has to do with being stranded in the woods and on that occasion I want a sturdy piece of steel that can do anything: chop, slice, pry, spear. I realized my Leatherman SuperTool, Sog Trident TF-3, and SOG Pentagon weren't up to a truly desperate situation and given I'm usually out alone I want some steel that is.

Speaking of steel, here is a link to a great steel composition chart over on Spyderco's site:
Spyderco Steel Chart (http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/steelchart.html)

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-13, 17:08
GregH,
OK, I follow you now. Sorry for getting off track. I certainly endorse having a chopper along with me, be it a hachet, machete or other big knife.
The idea of chopping, prying or spearing with an expensive knife kind of gives me chills, though. (This from the guy that broke his Western stockmans knife trying to pry open an elk pelvis. I leave them whole now :idea: ).
The Spyderco steel chart was informative. Incidentally, the first steels mentioned are traditional tool steels. The "O" designation stands for oil hardening; "A" for air hardening; "W" for water hardening; "M" for high speed steel (keeps its hardness at elevated temperatures); "D" is also air hardening with high wear resistance; "H" is hot work tool steel similar to "M".

SGT Rock
2005-11-13, 18:41
Wouldn't it seem a good idea to have a 3"-4" blade for good multi use and a seperate device like a hatchet for those sorts of heay chores. This is how I did a bit of trail blazing back at Ft Knox, and I found a hatchet a lot of fun to use for a variety of chores. This is one reason I have been looking for a good, light hatchet.

For my short blade, I have a 20+ year old Rigid 3" that they don't even make or carry anymore. Still works well.

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-13, 23:08
Yeah Top,
That's what I've been trying to suggest. Keep your choppers separate from your slicers. I have a Hudson Bay cruiser type axe (2.5-3.0 lbs, 24" handle) but it rarely makes it past my car camp, although I'd love to have it to make a base camp in the woods and cut kindling. I think a "light" hatchet is counter productive (even dangerous?) what with E=Mc2 and all. And a two bitted hatchet prevents you from using it as a hammer (for tent pegs, you know?).
E-tool is way to heavy, makes for a crappy hatchet, but makes a pretty good latrine digger. Not so great a foxhole digger, if you ask me.

SGT Rock
2005-11-14, 01:04
Well I keep looking at one of these thinking it might be nice to have for basecamping:

http://www.fiskars.com/digitalAssets/145085_7850.jpg

http://www.fiskars.com/US/Garden/Product+Detail?contentId=85474

Sgathak
2005-11-14, 01:22
E-tool is way to heavy, makes for a crappy hatchet, but makes a pretty good latrine digger. Not so great a foxhole digger, if you ask me.

Maximum utility tool I can think of is a good Russian Engineer Shovel AKA Spetsnaz Shovel. Shovel, hatchet (and it works good for this), measuring tool, hammer, raft paddle, knife, club, even use it as a skillet.

Cold Steel makes a great copy, better than the original in my opinion, and Ive beat the hell out of both.

Take one of these shovels, a Cold Steel Bushman, and a small folding knife 100mph'd into the handle of the bushman, and youve got one hell of an "emergency kit".

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-14, 10:43
Top,
The Fiskar hatchet looks pretty sweet but the website doesn't state the weight. Anything less than 1.5 lbs and I'm thinking you're not going to be building any cabins with it?
Sgathak's shovel looks cool and got to be lighter and more rigid than the E-tool, but still too heavy to be packing around the Colorado trail unless you are with a group that could justify some specialized equipment. It ought to be a little more versatile than a hatchet though for the same weight. That Bushman knife at 10 oz is pretty reasonable. Would be scary on the end of a long stick (preferably of some hardwood not readily available in the Colorado mountians where its all aspen or lodgepole pine.) Hafta go to Arkansas or Texas to find ash or hickory...It would look stupid on the end of your hiking pole.

SGT Rock
2005-11-14, 11:11
From http://www.sealenterprises.com/detail.asp?sku=2554301

FISKARS
78506984 14IN. HATCHET

Virtually unbreakable handle made of Nyglass

Head will not loosen due to insert molded design

Sharp & durable fully hardened blade and edge

Includes sheath for storage & transportation

Non-stick coated, forged carbon steel blade

Lifetime warranty



Details:

SKU #: 2554301
Mfg #: 94154
Part #: 78506984
UPC: 046561178505
WT: 7/8 Lb.
LENGTH: 14"
Weight: 1.5 lbs
Height: 16.63 in
Width: 5.75 in
Length: 1.12 in

So as I interpret this, it has a 14 ounce head and an overall weight of 24 ounces.

Sgathak
2005-11-14, 12:15
Sgathak's shovel looks cool and got to be lighter and more rigid than the E-tool, but still too heavy to be packing around the Colorado trail unless you are with a group that could justify some specialized equipment. It ought to be a little more versatile than a hatchet though for the same weight. That Bushman knife at 10 oz is pretty reasonable.

I subscribe to the theory of "utility to weight". I try to figure it out mathmatically. To do this, you divide the items uses (plus the importance of those uses) by the items weight. Given the uses I listed above (and there are more) we take the uses (8) plus my own personal value for the uses in an emergency/survival situation (arbitrary 10) and devide by the weight in lbs (1.7) and your U2W ratio is a 10.5. A Gerber Sport Axe (for sheer example) has 2 functions hatchet and hammer. It has a value of 10 (for arguments sake) and a weight of 1.5lbs. Its U2W ratio is 8. The higher the end number, theoretically, the more valuable it is for the weight. (Optionally, to take it one step further, factor in the cost of the tool. A shovel with a rating of 10.5 costs 1/2 as much as the Axe with an 8 rating. Because of this, its "value" doubles (you could buy 2 shovels for the cost of 1 axe) So you have a U2W 21 tool vs a U2W 8 tool.)

Is it appropriate for UL backpacking? Not at all. Would I carry a "10.5 shovel" over an "8 hatchet" if I thought I might need a large cutting tool? Absolutly. I keep 1 in each car, and have 4 in the garage that I use for throwing practice (these shovels are excellently balanced for throwing).

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-14, 16:47
I subscribe to the theory of "utility to weight". I try to figure it out mathmatically.
I keep 1 in each car, and have 4 in the garage that I use for throwing practice (these shovels are excellently balanced for throwing).

Well,
I'm intrigued by the little shovel but can't really justify one since I have this old, clunky e-tool that should last another few hundred years at the rate I'm using it.
About your utility index though, shouldn't you factor in the actual adaptability of the item for it's different uses? Top's hatchet has got to be a somewhat better hammer and hatchet than the shovel? The shovel must be a better paddle than the hatchet. Kind of scary in an inflatable though. Not that we have an abundance of navigable water here in Colo. Shovel gets the nod over the hatchet for a skillet. (although, after what I use my e-tool for, I'm not going to be doing much cooking in it)(not for myself, anyway)
I'd been thinking about hauling a big old cottonwood stump into the yard to throw my cruiser axe at, now maybe I'll do that and get a shovel to throw at it too. To impress all the buckskinners at the rondevous.

Sgathak
2005-11-14, 17:07
Well,
About your utility index though, shouldn't you factor in the actual adaptability of the item for it's different uses? Top's hatchet has got to be a somewhat better hammer and hatchet than the shovel? The shovel must be a better paddle than the hatchet

You can factor in the adaptablity by thinking about what you need and assigning it your own importance. If you need an axe and a hammer, but dont forsee needing a shovel, then you would likely assign a higher importance to the axe, yes?

If however your needs are more multifaceted, you might assign a higher value to the shovel.

For ease of example, I gave them both the same "importance", your needs/wants/desires might shift the balance.

Its an imperfect science ;)

When Im thinking an engineer shovel should be in the picture, Im thinking Ive got a large variety of potential situations I might need to deal with. But if chopping and pounding are the reason Im going out.... well, no one is going to willfully build a cabin with a shovel. But, then, a shovel is exactly .5 meter long, with a 15cm wide blade, which is 18cm long, so you might use a shovel as a measuring tool ;)

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-14, 18:48
I'd give that a utility of about a "1", with a 6" pocket scale a relative "10". Pardon me if I agree your "utility index imperfect science" lacks rigor. Still, its better than throwing everything you can think of in a bag and dumping it out at your campsite to look for something useful.
Since I'm not a big fire guy, I have a lot more uses for a shovel than I do a hatchet. And if I were to have to build a cabin, I'd be pretty grumpy having to choose between a hatchet and a shovel as my primary tool...That's when I'd go looking for a double bitted axe. Or an old mine shack. Plenty of them around.

Sgathak
2005-11-14, 18:51
I'd give that a utility of about a "1", with a 6" pocket scale a relative "10". Pardon me if I agree your "utility index imperfect science" lacks rigor.

Well Doug, forgive me for having any input, looks like youve got things figured out.

Sgathak
2005-11-14, 18:55
No BS on the measuring aspect though... Its not perfect, but it works.

http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com/entrenching-shovel.jpg

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-14, 19:29
Well Doug, forgive me for having any input, looks like youve got things figured out.
Sgathak,
I hope you're not taking any of this seriously enough to take offence at what I've posted. Pardon me. My command of the written word is not such that I am able to communicate the subtilty that I am speaking/writing tungue-in-cheek. Perhaps if I used more of these smilie things? :confused:
That being said, I press on:
You will have a hard time selling me a yardstick with no inch marks on it. Thereby also: a 1/2 meter stick w/o centimeters marked on it.

And: A (an imperfect) science unchallenged does not advance.

Sgathak
2005-11-14, 19:35
Whatever Doug, is it really that important?

People can either use the formula or not. People can either use the shovel or not. I dont really care. I REALLY dont care. Just thought Id throw out some things for people to ruminate over. I didnt think it would actually be worth talking this much about.

Mutinousdoug
2005-11-14, 19:43
"...I dont really care. I REALLY dont care.

Sgathak,
No, it isn't important at all. Which is why I'm surprised at your offense.
And yes it has gone overly long.

GregH
2005-11-14, 22:11
But lets keep the thread going anyway! :rolleyes:


...Since I'm not a big fire guy...

I AM a big fire guy (see my avatar). Of course, I'm a careful fire guy, too. That's why I'm looking forward to the Swamp Rat knife. Yes, it's big but it should prove utilitarian and fun to use chopping small to medium wood. Part of what got this whole thread series going (knives, steel, etc.) was Sgathak replying to a post about double-edged knives. He mentioned in a survival situation using a draw-knife for shelter and trap-making. A good point, that.

Axes, hatchets, knives, killer shovels...they're all good! :elefant:

Turk
2005-11-15, 00:56
This has been a really good thread. Learned alot on this one.
Most of my steel questions have been answered. I have still some
questions about blade designs. Some really great arguments for
what to look for in a camp/survival knife.

Sgathak ... I must have met you in life. There is absolutely no way
there are two people with that much general outdoor survival
and knife knowledge, and also bizarely, yet scarily proficient and lethal
with a shovel. You don't by chance work for Lafarge Construction do you?
It seems hard to believe there could be more than one "shovel wielding
survivalist" expert running around.

Hmm ...but what if there are more... and why does that seem like
a crazy branch of the Canadian Army.

Turk
2005-11-15, 01:19
Wanted to offer another perspective, on the matter of hatchet
and knife selections.

I own a swamp rat Camp tramp, but almost never use it anymore.
It is a great knife. Can take care of any camp chore, and takes alot of
abuse. Really can't say a single bad thing about it. If you had to
survive with nothing else .. you could count on the performance of
that one tool.

Why I don't carry it anymore:

I always carry my hatchet or tomahawk. How many average people
(All knife worshiping addicts excluded) have actually USED a good knife
for splitting wood daily. It works sure. But is is Hard work, and slow work.
The extra ounces of my hatchet are more than paid for by the efficiency
of a proper chopping tool. When I realized this, I got to thinking about
what I really needed in a knife.

When you know you will carry a hatchet for hard chopping, pounding etc,
maybe your knife should be geared to all the things your hatchet can't do.
I started carrying thinner blades, for finer cutting. A knife that shaves,
with a real thin kerf was alot more practical once I had accepted the
fact that the hatchet would cover all the "heavy work" applications.
Ideally I would like to purchase a really good fish fillet knife. But it
would have to really stand up to some abuse. Until I can find a better
alternative, I have been using a very thin double edged tool knife, on
the theory that two razor sharp edges are better than one, provided
the knife is thin enough to still precision cut with.

I suppose if I had any advice to offer, it would be this:

Only carry a hatchet, if you really need it. Chopping sure. But don't
dismiss a good machete either. Especially if you are thinking about
bushwacking, and clearing trail. A machete will out-perform a small
hatchet hands down. If you plan to cook off your stove, you really
don't need to justify the weight of a hatchet either.

If you don't absolutely NEED efficient fast chopping. Then go with
any of the survival knives that have been suggested in the knife
thread. A "do all" camp tool is definately the best reliability/utility/weight
ratio.

Another great combination that some experts I know will swear by
is a very thin kerf single bevel tomahawk and a good full sized, full featured
multi-tool. I cannot argue that logic either. They have all the bases
covered.

Personal defense? .. throw your hatchet first. (Or your shovel :biggrin: )
You knife is more valuable in your hand, or fashioned as a spear.
This of course will seem primitive and rediculous to some of you out
there packing serious heat on the trail. (In your case, just go ahead
and unload your cannon into the target problem.)
I'll be sure to wear bright colors and put on my best canadian manners
in your neck of the woods.

GregH
2005-11-15, 01:43
Turk, you make excellent points above. I went round and round in my mind on the hatchet vs. knife issue. What it came down to for me was that I wanted a tool to cover me in emergencies and for use in draw applications. It can chop, or be used as a prybar, or stand in as a hammer, etc. but will mostly be used as a slicer and all around tool. This isn't a collection-piece, this knife is going to work for a living.

And the feel of some heavy steel in the hand just feels sooo good. Just thinking about it makes me want to grab a blade and slice something, you know?

I've got to go, the nurse is saying it's time for my medication...

Sgathak
2005-11-15, 03:43
Sgathak ... I must have met you in life. There is absolutely no way
there are two people with that much general outdoor survival
and knife knowledge, and also bizarely, yet scarily proficient and lethal
with a shovel. You don't by chance work for Lafarge Construction do you?
It seems hard to believe there could be more than one "shovel wielding
survivalist" expert running around.


Sorry Turk, not me.

Ive got a background in wilderness survival, which has been a big hobby since I was a kid. Everything from grub eatting to homesteading to the modern "preparedness" stuff. Did the mtn man thing for a while too.

I also have a heavy background in Russian Martial Arts. Mostly Systema and Sambo, but Ive been exposed to Rukopashnii Boi, Draka, and Kadochnikova. One of our primary weapons is the shovel. Along side that we do knife work, as well as quite a bit with firearms, both shooting and using them as impact weapons.

WRT throwing a knife or shovel.... I really dont recommend it. Its great for familiarization with the tool, but its impractical. Ive heard arguments that it can be used to create distraction when closing the gap, or drawing your firearm. Ive also heard it can be used to bring down running personelle. All of which seem pretty last ditch to me.

GregH
2005-11-15, 23:12
... Ive also heard it can be used to bring down running personelle. All of which seem pretty last ditch to me.

Reminds of that scene in "Crocodile Dundee" where the limo driver brings down the punk by using the limo's TV antenna as a boomerang.

Replies an astonished Dundee, "I knew you was tribal."