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Streamweaver
2005-11-18, 11:32
Anybody used polypropylene twine for lightweight guyline etc? Its sold at Wally world as Seine twine. 400 feet for about 2 bucks. It seems pretty strong and light,Im just wondering how resistant it is to dry rot etc. :captain:

GregH
2005-11-18, 22:07
That's not the stuff that looks like it will shred is it? I had some of that which I bought at Home Depot and it didn't hold up at all.

dropkick
2005-11-19, 03:22
Used it for holding down some tarps, didn't last the winter, rotted.

PKH
2005-11-19, 22:08
Very susceptible to UV damage as well. In short, over time it deteriorates and weakens. Rot is a good word.

PKH

Streamweaver
2005-11-21, 13:02
Are you sure you guys bought the polypropylene type? Theres also seine twine made from cotton and nylon.Its often sold in tackle shops for use as trotlines and on crab pots etc.

Icemanat95
2005-11-21, 15:35
Polypropylene twine is a coarse, fibrous material, a bit stiff, doesn't take knots well at all (usually ends up being spliced rather than knotted). It is very vulnerable to UV damage making it even more brittle. I used some holding down a party canopy. Didn't last but a few months before it got weak enough that a good hard yank would break it.

Swingset ropes and cheap waterskiing tow-ropes are made of the stuff because it doesn't absorb water, but they don't last very long either.

Streamweaver
2005-11-22, 12:12
Well Id be willing to bet that not many of the lightweight cordage used for backpacking would last all winter long !! Im just going to be using it for guylines on my tarps ,tents so I think it will do.

dropkick
2005-11-22, 16:13
Well Id be willing to bet that not many of the lightweight cordage used for backpacking would last all winter long !! Im just going to be using it for guylines on my tarps ,tents so I think it will do.
It might work out for you. I've had cotton twine that weathered better. But depending on how much time the cordage actually spends outside, it might work wonderfully and last you for years.
On the other hand it might give out on you when your setting up camp, or in the middle of the night. Might not be very fun if it's in the middle of a rainstorm.
I would carry some form of backup, but I'm a worrier, and it will probably work fine for you.
I wish you the best of luck.

youngblood
2005-11-23, 09:11
Anybody used polypropylene twine for lightweight guyline etc? Its sold at Wally world as Seine twine. 400 feet for about 2 bucks. It seems pretty strong and light,Im just wondering how resistant it is to dry rot etc. :captain:For light weight backpacking tarps, there is premium guyline that is relatively expensive and very light weight; and there is cheap guyline that is relatively light weight and very inexpensive. Yale Cordage's 1/16" Pulseline (~$0.60 per yard) and Kelty's TripTease cord (~$15 for 50 feet) are both spectra core line with some type of polyester(?) sheath and are what I think of as premium guyline. For cheap guyline I like the Wellington Sportsman's Cord that I have found on 50 foot spools in the boating section at WalMart for $1.50. It has Wellington as the manufacturer but I believe they are more of a distributor because different batches of it are obviously different. I have seen it's Maximum Recommended Working Load listed anywhere from 11 lbs to 30 lbs and it is a braided poly-pro(pylene?) rope. Some versions are all polypropylene and are probably too slick and have too much spring in it to work well for me, but other versions has what looks like a polyester sheath and has good enough characteristics to work well as a guyline. It is 1/8" diameter and the one batch I weighted was about 3.3 oz/100 ft... in comparison, I think the premium stuff is about 1.8 oz/100ft and 1/16" diameter with tensile strengths of around 200 lbs. Tensile strength is not the same as Maximum Recommended Working Load. There is somewhere between a 5 to 1 all the way to a 12 to 1 ratio in how the two are specified and you don't really know, but I think all of these are strong enough for light weight tarps.

I don't see where dryrot would be much of and issue when using a light weight backpacking tarp unless for some reason you are leaving it exposed to sunlight for days on end, but the polyester sheath should help. Some people are happy using cheap nylon cord for guyline and I have used it myself in the past. I likely won't use it again as I have figured out how much its stretch characteristics contribute to the dreaded 'tarp sag'.

Iceman
2005-11-23, 10:57
Forgive me, I am not a hammocker, but have you considered one of the new hi-tech fishing lines available? I carry a bit of PowerPro Hi Vis Yellow Line, in my pack when I hike/hunt. I also use this line as guy line for my tents.

I carry the 80lb break strength/test version of this line. This braided line is designed to be wet, with no stretch, will not rot, has high visibility, and is tough as nails. Expensive though. Maybe you could find a tackle shop who spool line onto reels and buy a small quantity?

Lightweight, tough, highly visible. (no rot) Good luck.

Streamweaver
2005-11-23, 11:20
LINK (http://www.thru-hiker.com/detail.asp?product_id=xx102)<-I think this stuff that Ayce sells is generic Trip tease basically. I thought about using heavy Dacron fly line backing ,which is extremely strong and resistant to rot ,but since it is a very small diameter ,I wonder if it would cut into the guy loops when under pressure for a long time,or in high winds.

Icemanat95
2005-11-23, 23:05
When considering guylines, there are a few different dynamics to consider. The wind may exert 40 pounds per square inch on the tent in a decent blow, but that stress is being transfered across the whole surface and focused on small points The guylines, which also suffer stress risers wherever the cordage bends or folds, and especially where it attaches to the tent or tarp. 40 psi can quickly end up being concentrated to 160 psi or moreat a 1/8th inch square contact point.

I use a variety of options depending upon the application. THe old stand by is military specification 550 parachute cord. But I also use thin climbers utility cord as well in some cases, it's pricier, but lighter and still very strong.

In general, I've never found that cheaping out on such things has brought me anything but trouble.

dropkick
2005-11-24, 01:52
I use nylon cord from REI for my hiking/camping tie outs.
It's inexpensive, lightweight, compact, and strong.
I have chased down tarps that have broken loose (on equipment, etc. - not over me) and I don't like taking chances. The time when the line gives out, is the time you least want it too.
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?productId=27883&storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&langId=-1&color=FOREST&img=/media/610903_888Lrg.JPG&view=large&vcat=REI_SEARCH


Anybody ever try this? Glow in the dark line - might have to get some just for the heck of it.
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47845872&parent_category_rn=4500703&vcat=REI_SEARCH

Iceman
2005-11-24, 10:34
Dropkick, I have tried the Kelty Triptease reflective guyline, sort of spendy, but I usually use my headlamp in poor light conditions anyway. With my headlamp, I see my yellow hi-vis fishing line pretty well, but the TripTease does illuminate better. I wonder if the REI claim of "Exposure to any bright for just 10 minutes causes the phosphorescent yarn within the sheath to glow for hours" has any merit. (?) IMHO these "glow forever" claims are a bit overstated.

I haven't performed the Tent Tripline Twostep :elefant: in years! Last time I did, I missed creaming my tent by a few inches, yanking up half my tent stakes, and tearing loose a couple of fly attachment points. A solo trip, so nobody got to enjoy it but me..... :biggrin:

Do you think the Tent Tripline Twostep deserves entry to the Lexicon?

The HotDog
2005-11-24, 10:41
Have you looked at trotline cord It's Very Strong, Rot resitant and might just a little heavy compared to twine. But It can hold 100+ pounds and I have never seen any break before.It's just 4-5 dollars for 500'.Also there's some twine thats used as duckline cord to hold decoys that's like 75 cents after hunting season I think thats what your talking about, it's like 4 dollars during the hunting season. I'll have test the Twine I've got.

youngblood
2005-11-24, 11:05
Iceman,

So how strong do you think guyline for light weight backpacking tarps should be? And do you worry about the stretch characteristics of nylon cord?

One thing I do with my tarps is to use a short piece of shockcord (3/16" dia ?) in parallel with each of the side guylines (but not the ridgeline of the tarp). This helps keep the tarp from getting slack; well that, initially pulling it taut, using catenary edges and a ridgeline on the tarp as well as using low stretch guyline. I haven't gone through the calculations like you may have but I figure that worse case was when a strong gust of wind hit a tarp that had slack guylines... thinking that dynamic loading could be orders of magnitude greater than static loading. I use a pretty good size tarp (10.5'x8') above a hammock and have weathered out a few surprise storms (sometimes surprised by the wind changing direction) where I got hit with some scary winds, don't know for sure the wind speed, but recalling the events and looking at the Beaufort Scales for Wind Speed I would guess that it was 25 mph range in some cases at the tarp itself. I know I was suprised that it stayed together in a few cases but I didn't have anywhere better to go and didn't figure I could take the tarp down in that wind anyway, so I just hunkered down and hoped for the best. I remember one morning after riding out the ferious remenant of a hurricane observing that the ground that was rock hard and difficult to get stakes in the previous evening was soaking wet and spongue like... the stakes had no bite to them what so ever. I figure that I was lucky in that the heaviest winds where before the rain soaked the ground. What I got from that was if you are expecting a bad storm that it would be worth securing the stakes a little better by placing downed logs or rocks on top of them.

I underlined the word parallel above when talking about shockcord and guylines because I think it is important. I don't think shockcord is as reliable as guyline and I don't think you want the tarp to have the freedom of movement that an unlimited shockcord can give it. If a short piece of guyline is attached in parallel with your guyline, the guyline limits the amount of stretch of the shockcord and your 'overall guyline' is only weaker than the guyline itself by the amount that the knots contibute to weaking it.

All this is an interesting topic... yes?

Iceman
2005-11-27, 21:33
Youngblood, sorry for the delay, away for the weekend with the family. I do not have any experience hammock camping. At near 300 lbs, not sure they make a hammock for me. In my experience with the line I quoted, these microfiber or microbraid fishing lines are tough. Seeing how thin they are, I didn't believe the rating on them, so over a beer or two, my buddy and I hung flat weight lifting weights to our Halibut fishing line until the line snapped. 80lb line held over 80 lbs. Knots are a problem here, since the line tries to cut thru itself. When you buy some, you also receive instructions on how to tie a palomar knot. A must do with these micro thin lines.

Maybe someone else here can answer your specific question?

Good luck.

Seeker
2005-11-28, 01:02
holy hannah.... that's big... if i owned a small hammock-making concern, i'd take you on as a special challenge... well, fitting you with a custom hammock that is... probably kick my behind otherwise... i understand the comment now about carrying out elk pieces... but this is supposed to be about polyprope twine...

i use spectra/triptease for my tieouts... supposed to be good to i forget what weight...80 lbs? something like that. never had it break. did have my HH tarp rip though, and i've lost a slingshot tensioner to a strong wind too. i've tried small diameter mason's line (1/8" i think), and it holds, but it's just too small to get knots out of.... i can tie anything 'into' it, on purpose, but sometimes the lines tangle if i use the smaller stuff, and spend way too much time untangling it. i bought a roll of 300# spectra somewhere (black with the same reflective stuff as the triptease) and have been experimenting with it... sort of heavy, but holds really well. i'll probably go back to triptease. i have used polyprope twine in the past, and as has been mentioned, it rots quickly. i'd rather pay a bit more and have something last.

Hog On Ice
2005-11-28, 07:44
I do not have any experience hammock camping. At near 300 lbs, not sure they make a hammock for me.


I have been using a HH Explorer Deluxe Asym for the last couple years and have been quite happy with it and I weigh close to what you weigh. Before that the hammock I used was the HH Safari Deluxe (old style with webbing straps) for a couple of years which was a good hammock also - I switched from the old Safari when I started using a DAM in winter - the DAM worked better in the Explorer Asym.

I will never go back to sleeping on the ground again - a hammock is the best sleep I have ever had in the backcountry.

The HotDog
2005-11-28, 15:02
Ok, I have tested the twine I have and the stuff will stretch about a 12 inches before it breaks for comparison I did the same with trotline cord and it does stretch about 6 inches with a load of 210 pounds but doesnt break.
The twine, after it snapped the two bowlines i had tied in it were jammed
the trotline wasn't.
hope this helps.

The HotDog

Icemanat95
2005-11-28, 20:16
I use nylon cord from REI for my hiking/camping tie outs.
It's inexpensive, lightweight, compact, and strong.
I have chased down tarps that have broken loose (on equipment, etc. - not over me) and I don't like taking chances. The time when the line gives out, is the time you least want it too.
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?productId=27883&storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&langId=-1&color=FOREST&img=/media/610903_888Lrg.JPG&view=large&vcat=REI_SEARCH


Anybody ever try this? Glow in the dark line - might have to get some just for the heck of it.
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47845872&parent_category_rn=4500703&vcat=REI_SEARCH

Agreed

If you've ever fought a shelter up and sweated out a night inside when the winds are raging, you begin to put an awful lot of stock in tested and tried strength. I don't screw around anymore after having spent some hairy nights above treeline in the Prezzies during the winter. Your gear needs to be bombproof (so to speak) or you are going to be in a world of hurt. Every tie out and every guyline counts when the wind is howling and tearing at your tent. With a tarp it's even more important. You may not intentionally seek out conditions so extreme, but if you are out there long enough, sooner or later, the conditions will find you, probably after 4 months of daily use has reduced the strength of your marginal cordage to nil.