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incognito
2005-12-15, 21:35
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/paleofind002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/paleofind003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/paleofind007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/paleofind006.jpg

This spring I found this 5,000 year old axe on a trail 2 miles from home. Was out to photograph some native wildflowers for th IL Department Of Natural Resources (I'm a volunteer data collector). Had my camera just at the right moment. The flowers were not in blossom yet (wild hyacynth)

1 week later came upon a turkey sitting on her nest, starttled me to no end. She flew straight up through the tree tops, what a sight, what a sound. I'm glad to be a hiker.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/turkeyeggs003.jpg

GregH
2005-12-15, 21:56
Did you have those eggs scrambled or fried? :biggrin:

bird dog
2005-12-16, 20:50
I know Im taking a risk to ask this, but I gotta know...How did you date the axe? BD

incognito
2005-12-16, 21:46
Inquired at 4 different locations:

1. Local museum

2. Rockford College

3. Northern Illinois University

4. Beloit College, Anthropology Dept., Beloit WI.

My answer came from the Director of the Anthropology Dept at Beloit College. He said it was between 5,000 and 7,000 years old. I asked how he could know that. He said the grove extends the entire distance around the axe. Latter models extended only 3/4 of the distance.

Total time elapsed to find this out: 2 months approx.

The eggs, I let them be as is. One of them had come out of the nest when mom took off. Being the nice guy that I am, I put it back in the nest for her. I checked back the next day to take some photos of her on the nest. She never came back!!!!!!! I guess I should not have touched the egg. Must be my BO :damnmate:

jimtanker
2005-12-17, 01:31
That is too cool.

Right in my back yard(6.5 acres) when I was growing up I found an obsidian adze head and a stone pecked hammer head similar to what you have there. Still have them to this day.

Sgathak
2005-12-17, 04:06
As a data collector with DNR, you may be in a different situation than the average joe, but I thought collecting items like this was now considered taboo.... and I know in some areas it is a crime.

Do you plan on keeping this is a private collection or donating it to a local museum or something?

bird dog
2005-12-17, 18:57
That is too cool adze head

JT - What did you call me? Just kidding. What is an adze head other than another name for my ex-wife? BD :biggrin:

Oh yea...Almost forgot....AIRBORNE!!

incognito
2005-12-19, 17:26
The axe has been donated to a museum with a stipulation that it be put on public display with photos and location where it was found. It will also be used in a traveling display in local schools and universities.

Sgathak
2005-12-19, 19:12
The axe has been donated to a museum with a stipulation that it be put on public display with photos and location where it was found. It will also be used in a traveling display in local schools and universities.
:D COOL :D

Verlager
2006-01-07, 05:18
Yes, leave them where they lie. They don't belong to us. What kind of stewards are we to mess with the artifacts of ancient civilizations? Placing arrowheads and such in museums is rediculous because most people have no relationship to antiquity. People want what's new and exciting, don't they?

Friend of mine collects arrowheads from a farmer's field that was once a large encampment at the junction of three streams. In ancient times, it must have been a beautiful settlement, perhaps of 100-500 people. Game and fish would have been abundant. The people made tools and weapons. Think about them, imagine what their lives were like.

That's better! Still want to take the arrowheads they left behind? Doing so will certainly compromise future archeological investigations. Real archeologists tend to return the articles they unearth intact to where they were discovered. They don't loot. They keep the ball in motion for future thinkers and archeologists who will also want to find the same arrowheads. New minds will see these old things in ways that we haven't.

So, let's just think about quietly replacing those items of antiquity back to the ground they came from.

incognito
2006-01-09, 23:13
Verlager, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Your views are interesting and thought provoking.

I will ponder these things for a while and share them with others.

I wonder what the maker of the axe would say in response to your ideas.

Maybe he would like to see it posted in the "Home Made Gear Forum" or maybe he would say It is an item that he would prefer to leave behind.

Wish I had the chance to meet the maker of the axe.

Finding it and having possesion of it has brought me a lot closer to its maker.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

dropkick
2006-01-11, 02:44
Can't agree with Verlager on this.

Without "looting" most antiquites would have been lost long ago, either to weather, animal damage, or what-have-you.
They need to be gathered and protected.
Normally the only contact most people have with ancient cultures is through the items being kept in a museum for all to see and learn from.

And where do you think archeologists, paleontologists, and historians normally go to study ancient items and learn from them?
The only time an archeologist returns an item to the place it was found is when he is forced to.
If they did return them, all of our knowledge about ancient people and civilizations would be myths, conjectures, and word of mouth.

Sgathak
2006-01-11, 16:15
I cant see Verlagers posts, but based on Drop kicks post I agree that artifacts and antiquites, would, if left where they were found, be long lost, often forgotten, and be of little to no use. They couldnt be studied, and couldnt be appreicated. No one would be able to sit down and compair 2 like objects. For example, take this quote "He said it was between 5,000 and 7,000 years old. I asked how he could know that. He said the grove extends the entire distance around the axe. Latter models extended only 3/4 of the distance." No one would know this if the people who found other axe heads had just left them where they were found.

I have never heard of an artifact being returned to where it was found. Its hard enough to get an artifact returned to a museum in the country of origin, let alone have things like stone axes, arrowheads, fossils, arrows, what-have-you get returned to the dirt.

Now, in many places, its illegal to gather objects, as an amateur. I agree that amateurs who would likely just keep an object in their garage or at best, on a shelf at home, or sell it on eBay should be allowed to pick up objects of historical significance all willy-nilly... And in places like Mesa Verde many objects like arrowheads and pottery shards are left in place by professionals for amateurs/tourists to find and leave behind., though this is more of an exhibit than a serious "dig". I dont agree with "grave robbing" or similar practices, but I do think, that when an object of historical significance is found, it should be recorded and for those items which are likely to be lost to the sands of time, but could be used for educational purposes, they should be respectfully gathered and preserved so that others, who may not have the sheer dumb luck of the guy who found them, can get to share in the bit of knowledge they can impart.

jimtanker
2006-01-11, 20:05
Bird dog - an adze is sort of like an axe but with the head turned 90*.

http://www.nfmuseum.com/adze.jpg


I could probably mount the one I have and do some chopping with it. Dont think I will though. Amazing how they built things 1000 years ago and they would still work but my computer I bought last year keeps messing up all the time.

I hate technology sometimes.

dropkick
2006-01-12, 01:19
I could probably mount the one I have and do some chopping with it. Dont think I will though. Amazing how they built things 1000 years ago and they would still work but my computer I bought last year keeps messing up all the time.

I hate technology sometimes.

A few years back I tried chopping things with my old computer.
It didn't chop very well.
Made a neat sound when I slammed it onto the sidewalk though.

(Goodwill stopped taking them, and I didn't neeed a boat anchor)

Verlager
2006-01-15, 23:59
I cant see Verlagers posts, but based on Drop kicks post I agree that artifacts and antiquites, would, if left where they were found, be long lost, often forgotten, and be of little to no use. They couldnt be studied, and couldnt be appreicated. No one would be able to sit down and compair 2 like objects. For example, take this quote "He said it was between 5,000 and 7,000 years old. I asked how he could know that. He said the grove extends the entire distance around the axe. Latter models extended only 3/4 of the distance." No one would know this if the people who found other axe heads had just left them where they were found. Yes, they would. The artifacts' discoverers record the location and date that artifact was found. They write it down in "logbooks." They may photograph it, make a mold and cast of it. If the object is an animal remnant, the bones/fossils are stored for safekeeping at a "museum". In the case of human remains, like the Mongol burial sites in China, the site is unearthed, catalogued, and the site is returned to the condition it was in before the latest discovery.


I have never heard of an artifact being returned to where it was found. Its hard enough to get an artifact returned to a museum in the country of origin, let alone have things like stone axes, arrowheads, fossils, arrows, what-have-you get returned to the dirt.We will piss in your boots until you are forced to take them off. I get it. Another thing you've never heard of is editing your text for misspellings and obvious errors. But the coolest thing about your writing is your use of quotations as if you're letting us in on some little private insight, i.e., [though this is more of an exhibit than a serious "dig". I dont agree with "grave robbing" or similar practices,] You can just omit the quote marks, we know what the term "grave robbing" means. We're smart, too, ya know? From your post, I can't even tell if you agree with yourself.


Now, in many places, its illegal to gather objects, as an amateur. I agree that amateurs who would likely just keep an object in their garage or at best, on a shelf at home, or sell it on eBay should be allowed to pick up objects of historical significance all willy-nilly... And in places like Mesa Verde many objects like arrowheads and pottery shards are left in place by professionals for amateurs/tourists to find and leave behind., though this is more of an exhibit than a serious "dig". I dont agree with "grave robbing" or similar practices, but I do think, that when an object of historical significance is found, it should be recorded and for those items which are likely to be lost to the sands of time, but could be used for educational purposes, they should be respectfully gathered and preserved so that others, who may not have the sheer dumb luck of the guy who found them, can get to share in the bit of knowledge they can impart.. Yet, you'd object if future generations dug up your great-grandfather's coffin and put his bones and Bible on display for all to see, am I right? You'll probably see things a lot differently when you reach 25 years of age.

Verlager
2006-01-16, 00:41
If they did return them, all of our knowledge about ancient people and civilizations would be myths, conjectures, and word of mouth.Yes, unless they were first logged, dated, photographed, weighed, analyzed, carbon dated, described, and, only then, placed back into the wild.