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incognito
2006-01-19, 23:01
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualcoreburn012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualcoreburn013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualcoreburn011.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualcoreburn010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualcoreburn004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualcoreburn002.jpg


This is how the flames look using denatured alchohol.

Body is made of 1 1/2 copper pipe cap.

Center is made of 1/2 copper pipe.

Simmer ring is steel

Solder the 1/2 pipe to the inside of the cap then drill from the top through the half inch pipe down through the cap.

Low profile base is a knockout plug found in electrical departments of your local hardware or big box stores. Solder it to base.

Put a fiberglass wick in it, 20 ml.of denatured alchohol, now your ready to boil 2 cups of water in 4 min. (65 degree air and water temp. to start)

The central flame has made a significant increase in fuel eficiency over my original megawick design.

All of the fuel is absorbed into the wick. That means no fuel can spill out in the event that it should be knocked over.

The low profile base allows air to pass under and into the central core of the stove.

Very little heat is transferred to the base, stays cool enough you can hold it in your hand while it burns. No more burned picknick tables, countertops, etc..

The other two photos show some clips attached to the stove to be used as a pot stand. One is "squat" the other is "stretch" :biggrin:

Photos are loading just fine Dixicritter :biggrin: you're an :angel:

PS----This is only a prototype, don't be critical of quality :biggrin:

I should use a tripod too

Mutinousdoug
2006-01-19, 23:24
Very interesting!
How much does this thing weigh?

Lanthar
2006-01-20, 15:39
beautiful...

Puts more air right where it's needed for combustion. I like the side-affect of the bottom staying cool... that probably also means that it keeps the alky insulated from cold ground... very nice...

incognito
2006-01-20, 19:12
Still playing and testing!!!!!!!!!!!

Have found a source for aluminum parts to replace the copper.

Right now it weighs 3.985 ounces without the wick.

It will burn without a wick but needs a primer pan to get it excited :biggrin:

The wick weighs 10 grams.

When I make it out of aluminum you'll have to weight it down to keep a little breeze from blowing it away :biggrin:

Recently I saw a vintage alcohol stove on e-bay, it's base was intentionally weighted to prevent the wind from blowing it over. How we have changed!!!!! Today it's gram counting. Oh! we are a funny bunch. We are in such a hurry, fast lane all the way. I'm sorry!! I won't participate in that :confused: I take my time and smell the wildflowers and enjoy what we have been given.

Mutinousdoug, I’d like to extend an invitation to you to be an official tester of this little stove. At no cost to you, I’ll send the stove pictured above, a combined windscreen/potstand that I used in my tests and instructions on how I proceeded in the testing.

Also I’ll send along a $10.00 bill for you to purchase some denatured alcohol for the tests.

You have been around this campfire for awhile now, have a high degree of integrity and as a mechanical engineer have the technical background to objectively perform the testing.

You have spent a great deal of time field testing your own equipment, thus giving you the wisdom to be objective.

You are retired, got a little bit of extra time to spend on something fun to do. What do think of my invitation?

A special thank you for serving in Vietnam.

Lanthar!!!!!! Make some stoves!!!!!! How you doing on the pumice project?

Mutinousdoug
2006-01-20, 23:43
I would be flattered to be a stove testing agent for you. I have more time on my hands than I can spend camping, as a result, at 20ml/2cups boiling water I have a surplus of last years denatured to start testing.
Present me a proposal and I'll go have some fun.
I like the idea of aluminum re copper. Steel is even lighter than copper but doesn't transfer heat like Cu or Al.

dropkick
2006-01-21, 01:53
Neat o.
I like it.
Can't wait to see what you come up with next.

GregH
2006-01-21, 19:26
Is the center flame created by air flowing up through the center hole you drilled? This design really looks like a winner. Thank you for sharing with us.

incognito
2006-01-23, 13:47
GregH-- Yes, the center hole brings in oxygen.

All three requirements are present there, fuel, heat, oxygen. Those are the big 3 necessary for " fire ".

Glad to share my findings!!!!!!!!

Mutinousdoug
2006-01-30, 20:24
Here is a preliminary report on the dual flame stove that Incognito asked me to test in order to verify his claim of boiling 2 cups H2O in 4 minutes using 20ml denatured alcohol. That’s pretty impressive performance.
The package Incognito sent me contained the stove pictured in his posts including his simmer ring, along with a pierced steel pot-stand 2.5” in height and about 2.5” in diameter (this is the same he material pictured as the pot-stand he used with his TC5.) Included also were a plastic mustard bottle top (for a funnel) and two notched Al bars ¾” tall and 3.5” long that fit together to form an “X” which I assume is a pot-stand extension. Finally, he included one of his TC5 tea candle stoves.
First impressions:
It’s a stout little thing weighing almost 6 oz without the “X” stand extension. Incognito says he’s looking into an Al stove body which would reduce the weight of the copper components by 75%. The fiberglass wick fits tightly enough in the body to stay in position at whatever height you place it but slides up and down easily. I tried pulling the wick up to increase the flame in one test, which sort of worked at the cost of a shorter overall burn-time. Otherwise I left the wick bottomed out in the body. One edge of the wick has become frayed so that the outside warp has come out of the weave. I left that edge inside the body and don’t think it is an issue except perhaps on an extended trip. It could be easily repaired in the field if not let go for too long. The top edge of the wick is folded over on itself somehow and cannot become unraveled from that side.
I don’t know what cooking gear Incognito used, so I used what I would use in the field, namely: a SnowPeak .75 L Ti pot with its rather loose fitting frypan/lid. I have a tight fitting lid for it but it fits inside the pot far enough that the 2 cup fill touches the underside of the lid. I made do with the Snowpeak lid.
For comparison, I setup and ran tests using the sodacan stoves with the mechanic’s wire pot-stand made using Sgt Rock’s instructions on this website. Same Snowpeak pot was used for all tests.
I live East of Denver at an elev of 5760ft and my tapwater is 54f this time of year. H2O goes to a rolling boil at 199-200f at this elevation, so that’s as hot as liquid water gets around here. I ran some hot water to bring the test water up to 69-70f measured with a photographic thermometer. I used an instant reading meat thermometer for measuring heated water because the photo thermometer and my alcohol bulb thermometer only go to 125f. If my readings at temperature are off, you all will just have to deal with it; I have no way of calibrating the meat thermometer other than to compare all three at hot tap water temp of 116f where they read within 1f of each other. I did these tests in the kitchen (The little woman is at work) where ambient temperature is 67f.
I am going to use the abbreviation x:xx for minutes:seconds

For a baseline, the sodacan stove boiled 2 cups (16oz) of H2O in 6:37 and continued to boil until 7:50. The flame burned out at 8:10 sec. (This is an average of 2 test burns and agrees with some earlier tests)

First Dual flame tests were a disappointment: max temperature: 195f at 7:20, and burnout at: 9:13. This test was repeated with the same temperature reached at 7:30 and burnout at 9:08.
Next I pulled the wick out of the stove so that 5/8th” showed above the rim. Max temp: 195f at 6:45 and burnout at 7:30.

Both the stove body and the pot-stand retained a significant amount of heat for some time after the flame burned out. I thought this might be a heat sink robbing the H2O of calories so I made another pot-stand out of .5” mechanics wire so there wouldn’t be so much metal in the flame under the pot. I made it 3” tall so the pot stood 1” above the top of the stove (base of the flame) and repeated the test.
Max temp: 200f (boil) at 4:39 sustained at a boil until 5:45. Burnout occurred at 7:15 and the water temp was still 191f at that time. ( I don't know why the burntime would be affected unless the old pot-stand cooled off the flame more than this stand does?)

I think this is what Incognito is talking about. His claim seems to hold up to scrutiny.

I haven't fooled around with the simmer ring or the TC5 except to weigh the components. I have his TC5 stove body weighing 1.71gm and the pot-stand 4.01gm for a total of 5.72 gms. I'm measuring these on an old laboratory counterbalance scale that is truly capable to .01 gm. When I get rid of his pierced metal pot-stand and replace it with a mech wire one, I bet he'll be back to 5 gms.

incognito
2006-01-31, 22:27
Mutonousdoug, excellent report, I'm well pleased, thank You!!!!!!!!

Before I sent the stuff out I played around more with some boil times. When I removed the pot from atop the stove I spilled its contents onto the stove, drenching the wick. I put a different one in, tested it and off it was sent.

I am sending a new wick to Mutonousdoug to resume testing. Also neglected to send and information sheet with it :damnmate:

The cross bar needs to be on top of the pot stand to alow air to go up and through.

When I look at a half a glass of water I see a glass that is half full.

Someone else may look at it and say that it is half empty.

I look at the steel pot stand and see that it is also 50% windscreen. :)

I'll see if I can get a photo of that potstand up.

incognito
2006-02-01, 22:18
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/TinyTP014.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/TinyTP013.jpg

The pot I used for my tests is made by MIRRO, it is 5 1/4 diameter, holds 3 cups H2O, made of aluminum. Never ever watch your pot and expect it to boil :damnmate: I never take the lid off when testing. I watch for the steam to lift the lid and then I know its a rolin boil. Using a thermometer is for engineers :biggrin:

The potstand/windscreen needs the X grid to get the 4 min boil .

The pot stand full of holes(50% windscreen) is made from the OUTER workings of an OILFILTER :biggrin: Thats it to the right of the stand.

Further to the right are to containers of hand sanitizer, gelled alcohol, go check it out at your local stores. Burns ok, smells good when it burns, leaves a great smellin residue. One of you wanted to gel some naptha right, lighter fluid is naptha, naptha is almost pure gasoline :biggrin: Napalm, gelled naptha. Be carefull!!!!!!!

Acetic Acid is sold in Photographic supply stores, is used in making stop bath for pics. (glacial acetic Acid) concentrated stuff :biggrin: I bet you wonder how I know all this stuff :biggrin:

I have no eyebrows or sideburns, neither do I have finger hair :biggrin: My wife has given me the name FIREBOY. Some know me as FIREFLY

Wish I had more time to play!!!!!!!!

The wick material is the stuff that got soaked. Shown is two pieces, one on right the strands runing horizontal are the warp, the one on the left the strands run verticle are the weft :confused: Mutonousdoug correct me if I goofed. In my test the strands were verticle, just like the wick material in a karosene heater.

The cup in the background, alum. 3 cup, did not boil water with 20ml fuel, go figure. 5 1/4 dia, pot is close to ideal container to boil h2o for me.

Mutinousdoug
2006-02-01, 23:17
My mistake,
In your picture; the fabric on the right; the weft is verticle.
I could be wrong. I'm no weaver. I can hardly sew.
Searching the web, I learned: warp is the smaller strings attached to the loom top and bottom. The Weft (is what I should have said) is the fiber weaved between the warp, back and forth (using a shuttle). In my post I should have said: one strand of the weft had become (what?) un-woven? Stuffed down into the cup of Incognito's stove, it's a non-issue.
Sorry for any confusion.
Anyway, I'm not going to buy a "mirro" pot to try to duplicate Incognito's results until I see he's got a TC5 or "dualflame" that outperforms Sgt Rock's sodacan stove with my setup, but I think Incognito's experiments are very much worth investigating for those who are interested.

Lanthar
2006-02-02, 11:58
The pot stand full of holes(50% windscreen) is made from the OUTER workings of an OILFILTER :biggrin: Thats it to the right of the stand.


Whew! when I first saw the pics I thought 'Dear god, don't tell me he tryed to use an oil filter as a burner....'

incognito
2006-02-05, 00:08
Did a little nip and tuck on the perforated pot stand/windscreen it now weighs in at 16 grams.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualburner006.jpg


Anyway, I'm not going to buy a "mirro" pot to try to duplicate Incognito's results until I see he's got a TC5 or "dualflame" that outperforms Sgt Rock's sodacan stove with my setup, but I think Incognito's experiments are very much worth investigating for those who are interested.

Doug, thank You Very Much for the testing that you have done, were close, lots of variables I'm not looking to out perform anyone, I'm just having fun making stoves and sharing what I can. I've put a new set of wick material in the mail today for you so you can use it just to tinker with the stove I sent or use it to make a wick type stove of your own design.

Thanks again Doug-----Have Fun

One of the nice things about this stove is the wick absorbs all of the 20ml of fuel, if it tips over no fuel spills out, no lost fuel, no burned platforms or picnic tables etc. :)

oops56
2006-02-05, 02:32
Just get three spikes drive them in the table oops ground
The one on the left is a sterno pot stand with a alcohol pressure stove top burner 1/2 oz 12-1/2 min burn 5 min boil 20oz. water. On the right a tea candle holder to hold a tea burner its got a pumice stone in it 3/4 oz. fuel just got to 180f 20 oz water 4 min. burn. The white one is pressure side burner 1 oz 3 min. boil 20 oz water 3-1/2 total burn. The one on the left a little bigger round and tall pressure side burner 1 oz. fuel 3 min. boil 3-1/2 total burn 20 oz water


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/potstand.jpg

incognito
2006-02-16, 23:24
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualburner009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualburner011.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/dualburner010.jpg

This is the aluminum version, weighs 56 grams, 1.97 ounces, big difference in weight compared to the copper original.

1st phot shows top view of increased 7/8 inch core diameter. Did that to increase center flame for increased heat at very center of pot.

2nd shows size of hole compared to size of quarter also shows small shelf inside potstand where stove will be permanently mounted. Made the pot stand out of hardware cloth as MDoug suggested.

3rd shows stove mounted in center of potstand ready to go. Doing it this way eliminated the need for the soldered base as shown in the original prototype.

Will do some test boils over the weekend. Mutinousdoug did some fantastic testing on the TC 5 stove, Thank You Very Much !!!!!!!!!!!!!! check his recent posting on it.

oops56
2006-02-17, 00:49
Well here is my new stove & set up its a butane canister that fill cigarettes lighters its 1-1/2 tall use a snapple bottle cap for the bottom j b weld the bottom holes are .040 a sewing needle size 8 holes just below top ridge in the middle dime size circle 8 holes then in the middle a 10-24 the screw file to a point to self tap in the hole that was drill just a little smaller then the thumb screw it will tap right in.The pot stands are the small tune cans as you can see turn in for small pot turn out for big pots. Pots are 1 in. from flame. Now for time 1- 1/2 oz denatured alcohol 7 min. rolling boil hot in 4 min. good for cup coffee temp water 40F 20 oz. water total time11 min. o this stove has a prime wick around it the stove will hold almost 1-1/2 oz. fuel

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/tpot1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/tpot2.jpg

Lanthar
2006-02-17, 10:30
Nicely done, Incog, did you have to weld two pieces together, or did enough hunting turn up a hardware piece that you could use natively?

incognito
2006-02-17, 20:08
Lanthar, I JB welded it :biggrin: stuff works great!!!!!!!!!

Ooops56, great job on the pot stand and stove. Looks like you shot the pot stand with a 22 cal. :biggrin: I wanna see the stove in the box.

The little red one you used for your kelly kettle is great also, they only cost $12.00 bucks on ebay, pay more than that and they seen ya comin.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/kk2.jpg

I bought 2 of them, one I took apart to see how they work :rolleyes:

oops56
2006-02-17, 20:57
There it is

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/sterno22.jpg

incognito
2006-02-18, 23:43
I remember you saying you no longer go camping, what do you do with all the stoves you have?

Which stove is your favorite? What is the oldest one? Which is the smallest and lightest one?

oops56
2006-02-19, 01:00
My favorites stoves some of them now bear with me i got to do one at atime then come back do a edit put in more
This is my all time favorite turm sport alcohol
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/turm1.jpg
these next are some that i just like this one is a enders baby white gas
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/enders1.jpg
just some of my alcohol stoves
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/astove10.jpg
ok here are the light ones a primus stone the one on the right is two whole stone the left one long stone cut in half for a coffee cup to fit they sit on the stones
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/rockstove.jpg
well here is a old one not sure how old but not bad its works ok a little slow its a alcohol http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/pocketstove.gif
this one is old 1908 i think landers alcohol a roarer yep a alcohol that roars plus the plate for to put pot on is cast iron like a heat diffuser
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/ac1.jpg
this is a two burner alcohol stove with some of my coffe makers and the coffee grinder got more stoves but out in shop to cold to go out 0%F right now
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/coffee.jpg
as far as camping goes we use to camp all the time kids and all tents later on got a 5 wheel 25 ft camper camp all summer on week ends left at park back home in fall i plan on it this year 2 or 3 times in a park the old hard way tents and all the old way bring lots of stoves . I use a stove ever day to do my lunch its not road testing but house testing. i just love to collet them mess with them o got so maney having a lawn sale this summer to maney when it gets warm out i will take a hike in the woods to do my lunch stay 2 or three s hours siting just taking it all in plus some coffee mite try some needle coffee

incognito
2006-02-20, 16:19
I like the pocket stove and the Landers Roaring Alcohol , well!!!! I like them all, thanks for sharing them :)

I'll bet you have one interesting lawn sale, all the local stovies will be sure to attend.

It's been really cold here also, to cold to be in the garage doing test on the dual flame.


when it gets warm out i will take a hike in the woods to do my lunch stay 2 or three s hours siting just taking it all in plus some coffee mite try some needle

Ooops, put some time aside to do that every day, It'll make you live longer!!!!
What is needle coffe? (hope it's not pine needles :confused: )

oops56
2006-02-20, 17:47
I like the pocket stove and the Landers Roaring Alcohol , well!!!! I like them all, thanks for sharing them :)

I'll bet you have one interesting lawn sale, all the local stovies will be sure to attend.

It's been really cold here also, to cold to be in the garage doing test on the dual flame.



Ooops, put some time aside to do that every day, It'll make you live longer!!!!
What is needle coffe? (hope it's not pine needles :confused: )

yep thats it pine needle just use the tips 1/2 in. long

incognito
2006-02-25, 23:13
It got up to 50 degrees in the garage today so I did some test on the aluminum, one piece dual burner stove.

Consistantly boiled 2 cups of water in 4 1/2 min. with 20ml of denatured alcohol. Did 7 test burns, all were the same, 4 1/2 min.

Water and air temperature were at 50 degrees F.

Felt a little adventurous, tried some coleman fuel (white gas).

The only thing different in the set-up was I added a simmer ring to reduce the amount of fuel being evaporated.

My first test was using 10ml of fuel. No problems, no radical burning. Water got steaming hot but did'nt boil.

Second test was using 15ml fuel. No problems, no radical burning. Water boiled in 3 1/2 min.

Bottom and sides of pot became covered with soot. Black is beautiful, retains heat (emisivity, yeh, right). Some people paint their stoves black, why not have a black pot? :elefant: Hey!!!!! just kidding

In the past, when my pot would get some soot on the bottom I would put it on the flat ground and give 4 to 5 twists and it would clean it off good enough for me.

This type of burner being filled with fiberglass is somewhat similar to having a container filled with sand. I have read on Whiteblaze that a guy in the military in Iraq filled an ammo container with sand and then put in deisel fuel and it burned just fine to use it as a stove.

The sand would control the burn rate just the same as the fiberglass controls it in the dual flame. In the near future Ill try doing a comparison, side by side stoves, one filled with fiberglass one filled with sand.

incognito
2006-03-04, 21:52
I used three one ounce aluminum containers.

Starting on the left side, the first container is filled with fiberglass wick material.

The second is filled with fine sand.

The third is empty.

In each container I put 15ml (1/2 ounce) Coleman white gas.

The one with fiberglass wick material gave the best results: 1. gave off an initial high amount of heat. 2. Burned the longest length of time for efficient use of fuel.

The one with sand had fuel remaining in the lower half of container but was not able to wick it to the surface . The upper half had completely dried up.

The empty one behaved better than I expected. I expected it to boil rapidly and become radical, throwing fuel outward and causing a problem. But that did’nt happen.

The clock shows the amount of time elapsed from beggining to the end of the burn.

Under the conditions shown, it is possible to use white gas as a fuel for cooking or purifying water. The test performed with the dual burner boiled 2 cups of water in 3 1/2 min. using white gas.

My next tests will be with kerosene to see how it does.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/whitegas003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/whitegas010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/whitegas012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/whitegas015.jpg

oops56
2006-03-04, 22:19
The wick should have pot stand and pot on it mite burn longer the sand one give up on that it needs a pumice stone the open one needs to be made like a cat stove just my four cents cause i done it with alcohol [happy flames] P. S. i see the wife said outside he he plus kerosene has to pe heet to vaporize at a hot temp to burn with hot flame likrthe primus and optimus stove and the old coleman stoves etc.

Mutinousdoug
2006-03-04, 22:25
Incog...
Once again an interesting experiment.
I gather that the Aluminum cups are just that? Not your dual burner?
I wonder if coarser sand wouldn't help wick the remaining fuel in place of the fine sand of the middle experiment. Or, since you are not particularly worried about soot, something organic like pine needles or other tinder.

oops56
2006-03-04, 22:46
Now Incongnito if you keep getting them hi flame sooner or later its going to burn your eyebrows off then you can say you are a Stevie that's how Stevie's look like. No eyebrow's

Seeker
2006-03-05, 16:15
I wonder if coarser sand wouldn't help wick the remaining fuel in place of the fine sand of the middle experiment.

seems like i remember someone using mica chips (they use it to insulate concrete block buildings) or something like that, in a shallower can, like an altoids tin... maybe that would work better... i'm done experimenting with white gas though (LOL) :heeeellll

dropkick
2006-03-06, 04:01
seems like i remember someone using mica chips (they use it to insulate concrete block buildings) or something like that, in a shallower can, like an altoids tin... maybe that would work better... i'm done experimenting with white gas though (LOL) :heeeellll
Those aren't mica chips (though close) they're vermiculite.
Vermiculite is a great product, you mine it, it makes good insulation, is inexpensive, and is fairly fireproof.
Unfortunately most of it also contains asbestos. Which is why you don't see much of it on the market anymore.
Here in Montana we have almost an entire town with medical problems due to the mining of it. (Libby)
Your best bet if you have it in your house is to leave it alone, and hope it came from a safe mine. Removal is very expensive. (If undisturbed even the asbestos\veremiculite is safe - dust is dangerous)

Seeker
2006-03-06, 14:15
oh great... i spent two whole days one summer about 25 years ago, standing on a 12' high block wall, breathing it in and tamping it with a stick while my dad poured it into the holes...

well, it can't be any worse than all the contact cement i breathed helping him redo kitchen counters my whole childhood...

thanks for the clarification... so if that's no good, what about coarse sand, or even finer sand but in a shallower tin?

incognito
2006-03-06, 19:26
My main interest was to see if the white gas would become radical in the cup without a filler(sand etc.) I've always had it in my mind that white gas was so volital that it could only be used in a pressurized stove like the Coleman.

I now know differently. Those of you that use white gas in stoves can now carry along the bottom half of tomato paste can as a backup stove in case your stove has a malfunction and brings your cooking to a halt. Burning 1/2 ounce at a time (15ml) One more time------!!!!!!!! only 1/2 ounce at time :biggrin:

Mutinousdoug: i used cups only, they are the ones i use for the Dual Flame. They were handy for the test. 1 ounce capacity. When filled with sand they barley hold 1/2 ounce of fuel, just a little info there :smile:

Again, my main interest was Will the white gas become radical? Under the test conditions all went well.

I did the test outside :biggrin: did'nt want to burn MY garage down :biggrin:

Still have my eyebrows, have not become a "Stevie"!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

At this time I'm not interested in other materials to be used in this type of open flame stove. Pearlite might be of interest in the future.

When i can get toit, I'll use the same three cups to burn kero. Just for the heck of it!!!!!!!

The Dual Flame seems to be able to burn anything I put into it.(within reason) :biggrin:

Mutinousdoug
2006-03-06, 20:45
Incog,
I'm still interested in the Al version of your dual burner if you are seeing any success.
Mama here has expressed an aversion to the smell of camp fuel (she runs her own medical lab that keeps her awash in solvents and nasty chemicals through the week so she is intolerant of such like on her off days) but has no such ill-feelings for denatured so that predudices my choice of fuels. (Beside the fact she's an exellent source of used 95% ETOH for experiments). Coleman fuel is substantially cheaper than denatured so the economy of the fuel is unassailable on the commercial market.
Given all that, I don't consider soot to be a feature so much as a (unpleasant) by-product of inefficent combustion.

incognito
2006-03-07, 19:37
Mutinous!!!!!!

Success is written all over the Dual Burner :rolleyes:

I'm going to give "Mama" the Aluminum Version that is pictured somewhere up above and in the photo below. You can test it for her, she'll :love: for it!!!!!! I'll put it in the mail soon. You can use your existing pot stand or make her a new one :biggrin:

The photo below shows an interesting flame pattern created by the inner flame. You can see how it narrows as it gets closer to the pot. The inner flame might be creating a vaccum causing it to be that way, what do you think? It's the aluminum version dual burner. Also look at my original photos of the burner, see how pointed the flame is. Maybe thats why the increase in efficiency, heat being concentrated at the center of the pot by the inner flame. Wish I was a rocket scientist so I could know what's goin on with this little burner :confused:

Any rocket scientists out there? Turk??

Mutinous: It will be interesting to see if you get the same results as mine. My elevation here is 710 feet according to my GPS readings today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/microcombo031.jpg

Mutinousdoug
2006-03-07, 20:15
The inner flame is affecting the way the outer flame looks. I'd guess it's because the heat of the inner flame is accelerating the velocity of the outer so the flame column gets narrower as it goes up. It would be like water from a faucet gets narrower as it falls, getting accelerated by gravity.
You'd need to talk to a fluid dynamics guy to verify that. A rocket scientist would be all over that mystery. I burned my text for that subject long ago to keep warm.
How long does this stove keep burning after achieving a boil?

Keep up the good work.

Doug

Lanthar
2006-03-08, 11:31
The inner flame is affecting the way the outer flame looks. I'd guess it's because the heat of the inner flame is accelerating the velocity of the outer so the flame column gets narrower as it goes up. It would be like water from a faucet gets narrower as it falls, getting accelerated by gravity.
You'd need to talk to a fluid dynamics guy to verify that. A rocket scientist would be all over that mystery. I burned my text for that subject long ago to keep warm.
How long does this stove keep burning after achieving a boil?

Keep up the good work.

Doug

Actually most 'open flame' alcohol stoves (and many other alcohol stove) will demonstrate this behavior, however it is usually at a distance of 3-6 inches above the burner that acceleration has happened enough to noticably 'pinch' the flame / heat column. The inner acceleration is probably what is causing this to happen sooner.

and you're right a 'hot spot' will increase thermal effeciency as it keeps the heat from spreading out across the bottom of the pot before transfering to the water.

Nice job Incog.

incognito
2006-03-18, 11:59
I'm going to give "Mama" the Aluminum Version that is pictured somewhere up above and in the photo below. You can test it for her, she'll for it!!!!!! I'll put it in the mail soon. You can use your existing pot stand or make her a new one

Sorry for the delayMutinousmama, my patent atty. friend is taking longer than I thought with it. He's making drawings from it etc. When i showed him the lantern attachment for it he said I should patent it.

I'm making a batch of them, so when I'm done I'll send one out pronto. Not able to show photo of lantern attachment. Gives off same amount of light as 71/2 watt bulb, enough light to read by, steady light. Central flame allows for lantern feature.

Lanthar
2006-04-06, 19:10
Hey, make sure to keep us updated when you get the stove / lantern sorted out (and patented) and start selling.

I'm interested... and I promise I'll actually buy one this time ;)

Mutinousdoug
2006-04-07, 16:42
There is a sloppy, wet, blowing snow out today and Mama is at work, so it’s a good day to burn some alcohol in Incognito’s Beta Dual Flame stove. I’m trying to think of a different name that rolls off the tongue better; I’m not there yet: something like “Centerburner” or “Injector” or “Inhaler” or “re-breather” something-or-other. I hope Incognito's marketing agency comes up with something catchy.

As per the previous tests I reported here, I’m attempting to boil 16oz of water in a Ti SnowPeak .75 liter covered pot. I used a hardware cloth pot stand and an aluminum oven liner windscreen (not as a windscreen, rather as a reflector). Fuel is denatured ethyl alcohol (EtOh). Last go around I heated my tap water to 70f prior to conducting the tests to duplicate Incog’s baseline but this time, for my own selfish reasons, I used the water as it came from the tap here at: 55f. Ambient temp in the house is 64f (I’m trying to delay/avoid another $400 propane bill).

THE TESTS:

The 1st two tests were a disappointment until I realized that 15ml EtOh was what I’d been using in the tea candle stove tests. I upped the EtOh to 20ml that was used to achieve a boil in 4:39 (minutes:seconds) in the 1st incarnation of Incog’s Dual Flame stove. Could not quite get a boil: 195f using a 2-3/4” pot stand and 198f (REALLY close) with a 3” stand. In both cases the stove continues to burn but the flame was past its peak and couldn’t bring the pot to the rolling boil that indicates max water temperature (which is about 200f here at 5760 ft).
So I next put 25ml EtOh in the stove to get a longer peak burn. This resulted in a boil at 5:10 into the test with a sustained boil until 6:50. Plenty of burn time. But I noticed the flame reached around the pot and over the top for the first 4 minutes of the burn. This seemed kind of wasteful; as if there were too much wick.
Incognito has packed the stove body with a coarsely woven fiberglass so that it pretty much fills the cavity between the outside and inside walls. Looking back on the 15 and 20ml tests it seemed that the wick absorbed all the EtOh , and in fact, Incog noted that the stove could be turned over and not spill the contained EtOh, probably a good feature if you are inclined to cook inside a nylon floored tent. 25 ml seems to more than saturate the wick but resulted in a burn that is too big for efficient heat transfer to my (note: “my”) pot.
So, I took out the entire fiberglass wick except enough to circle the stove cavity once. This was about 2/5ths of the amount Incog had provided. With this, I repeated the 20ml test that had resulted in a water temp of 198f and had significant bubbles coming off the bottom of the pot, but not quite the “rolling” boil I was looking for.
Now there was a puddle visible in the stove about ½ up the side of the cavity. The result of this test was a rolling boil at 5:40, sustained until 6:25 and final burnout at 7:06. Pretty convincing performance.
I have to clean up the kitchen now (before you-know-who gets home). If you folks can think of any new wrinkles, let me know.

Doug

incognito
2006-04-12, 10:28
As you know, I seem to get sidetracked from one idea to the next, always trying something new.

The original copper model had a central core that was made with a reducer, 3/4 down to 1/2.(Doug go back and check that out on the original) As we all know, that reduction introduced what we know as the Venturi Effect. The air velocity at the core was much greater with the copper model. By changing the core diameter on the alum. model and eliminating the Venturi feature we have come to Blaaaahhhh mixed results for sure :bawling:

All that said, it still performs within reason :biggrin:

Mutinousdoug has risked life and limb performing these tests, we are deeply gratefull for his courage :biggrin:

Now!!!!!!!!! Back to square one!!!!!! I will again persue the 4 min boil with an aluminum model. :biggrin:

The lantern attachment is being perfected also.

I'm away from home 10 hours a day because I'm not retired like most of you out there :biggrin: I have varied interests, tinkering with stoves is one of them. The biggie is propagation of rare native wildflowers. Spring has sprung here in the midwest. My thoughts have gone in the direction of the natural creations around us. Wonderlust has set in, hit the trails!!!!!! Cabin Fever is gone. Last week on vacation cured me :biggrin:

I'll pop in and out at times to see how everybody is doing. I'll be watching from a distance. Have fun!!!!!!!!! I am and will continue to do so :dancing2:

**********NOTHING VENTURED NOTHING GAINED**********

oops56
2006-04-12, 10:39
Well did you know that you can eat the peddles of a flower a little oil fry a little i like rose flowers no i am not nuts almost

Mutinousdoug
2006-04-12, 13:30
...
The original copper model had a central core that was made with a reducer, 3/4 down to 1/2.(Doug go back and check that out on the original) As we all know, that reduction introduced what we know as the Venturi Effect. The air velocity at the core was much greater with the copper model. By changing the core diameter on the alum. model and eliminating the Venturi feature we have come to Blaaaahhhh mixed results for sure :bawling:

All that said, it still performs within reason :biggrin:

I will again persue the 4 min boil with an aluminum model. :biggrin:

...

As Incognito states, the core hole in the Aluminum model Dual Flame is larger than in his copper original. the copper ID hole is about 5/8" dia and the Aluminun one is more like 15/16th". I don't think that is a major factor though; remember I'm using tap water that is 15f cooler than Incog's to start with and it did take the H2O up to 198f (boiling here is 200f). It takes (x) amount of calories to heat (x) amount of H2O (x) degrees, so I knew it was going to take more calories to boil my water. Also, I could probably speed up the boil time by adding more wick than I used in the last test in order to optimize the flame to pot heat transfer. The only reason I used the amount of wick I did was because that amount fit neatly around the inside of the stove one time. As I recall, the wick material is something Incog got as industrial scrap and may be hard to find for the casual "Stovie" so any of you experimenters out there will be well served by testing your stoves with various configurations of whatever wick you end up with.