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dropkick
2006-06-10, 03:46
Idiots spent millions of taxpayer dollars bringing Canadian wolves into Montana, and now they are causing more and more difficulties. They have been killing livestock and pets.

They have been killing llama, pets, and stock up Ninemile (outside Missoula, MT.) for years now. Almost from the day they were reintroduced.
They are depopulating elk herds and I'm not seeing as many mule deer coming out of the hills as I'm used too.

Now they have been killing cattle and pets in the Bitteroot range up by Sula (near the Idaho border).
Which is where I have land, and along with my dog, was planning to spend a large portion of the summer.

My lab is a goofy friendly thing and she wouldn't last 10 seconds.

In the story they had on the news they told about how the wolves had gutted a dog not 30 feet from the front door of it's house.

The packs need to be thinned and they need to relearn the fear of humans so they will move back into the hills. However until the Feds get out of regulating the wolves this isn't going to happen.

Hopefully this will happen soon.


---Of course then the idiots will bring in grizzlies.

Iceman
2006-06-10, 11:52
Hey, your wolves have actually spread as far East as the eastern portion of Washington State. Montana to Washington is not a very far commute for a wolf. Anyway, I agree that they need to go bye bye.

This issue has really been pissing me off. Out here in Washington, we have tied the hands of hound hunters, no more hound hunting of cougar, or bear. A campaign to end trapping years back had a provision which also wiped out hound hunting. And unfortunately some of the hound hunters had it coming...a few unscrupulous hunters who treed a cougar or bear, shot it with disabling shot which knocked it out of the tree and then they let their dogs have their way with the animal. All on camera for the public to see. What a great nail in your own coffin. This is not cool. But we need to keep these animals in check if we intend to use the woods, hunt game, and grow our own protein. Farmers can file claims to receive cash for replacing livestock from predation. (tax dollars) Farmers can recieve cash for losses due to crop damage from elk or wintering deer. (tax dollars) But what about me??? What about regular citizens who lose thier dog or worse a family member to cougar or wolf. How about loss chances to take game from predation of deer stocks...?

We continue to see more and more sightings of bear near many suburbs in the Seattle area, Wildlife comes in with help of local law enforcement,(tax dollars) and has a little roundup, tranq's the bear, and ships it out to the woods. Remember, this was not a problem before the law changed. We had hillbiliies running thru the woods with dogs, chasing bears and cougars way back away from society. Now we have generations of cougar and bears, and Wolves in Montana and similar places which are not afriad of humans, even consider humans a great non threatening source of all kinds of food.

We even have sealions out here which have turned our waterways into salmon kill zones. Areas designed to assist salmon on their journey back up river systems (fish collectors and fish ladders) are now killing zones for sealions. Sealions are "protected", so they just lounge around and wait for another unsuspecting salmon to swim up. They catch the fish, eat the belly out, and let the wrest of the salmon go to waste... Can you say PROTECTED SPECIES. Wildlife officials use "flash bangs" and redesign of structures in an attempt to reduce fish kill by sealion, but to limited success.(tax dollars) Back when salmon runs were humongous, back when fishermen used to snipe all sealions, things were better for the salmon and humans.


My gripe is that, OK, humans are here now. We have screwed up the environment alot. Said, done. Wild game and fish are here to be enjoyed by mankind. But many environmental whackos want humans gone. Or atleast to let mother nature run its natural course as though we were not here. These whacko's do not live in the countryside where their dogs and cats are being eaten right off their porch. They are not trying to raise a herd of cattle or sheep. They do not go on hikes with small children or pets. They could care less about salmon returns, hunter success ratios, or anything other than returning natural predation to the forest.

You cannot compete with the environmentalist approach. Most voters reside in the cities and do not see the issue, until "billy-bob" who is missing his teeth and married his sister, is seen on the tv in a commercial blasting a baby bear out of a tree so his pack of dawgs can rip it in half. How can you compete with that. Most voters think that a new homeowner out in the suburbs has it coming to them for "wrecking" the environment with their new house. Most voters could care less about a farmer losing a couple of cows to a wolf. "Not their problem", but they will vote to allow wildlife offials to have ultimate decision making authority on most issues, and to ban anti-predation measures by man (hound hunting...).

Friends of the forest, people who actually live, work and play there are screwed.

blackdog
2006-06-10, 13:03
Please carry on debating the subject but try to avoid the most extreme prejudices in regard to both canine and human populations, OK?

john pickett
2006-06-10, 14:52
"The packs need to be thinned and they need to relearn the fear of humans so they will move back into the hills. However until the Feds get out of regulating the wolves this isn't going to happen"

It will happen if we make it happen. A 12 guage semiautomatic stoked with whatever brand and load of buck gives a good dense pattern will give you about all the protection you need on the trail. Not lightweight, but necesary. Like carrying enough water. When the packs lose a few members, they will relearn that fear of humans that used to let us co-exist. Just remember, we Cannot be protrayed like Billy-bob. Use discretion when carrying and avoid cameras and reporters.
We don't have wolves or grizzlies here in North Texas (I think) but we do have alligators in every lake, pond, river, and stream. Again, we can thank the environ-mental-ists and their governmental lackeys.
End of rant.
John Pickett

incognito
2006-06-10, 17:24
Dropkick and Iceman

Do-It !!! When you get the chance. Thin them out discretely and bury the carcass. Better yet practice your survival skills and eat it or maybe even make some jerky :elefant:

Have patience, be discrete!!! :biggrin:

fieldcraftsman
2006-06-10, 17:35
This issue has really been pissing me off. Out here in Washington, we have tied the hands of hound hunters, no more hound hunting of cougar, or bear. A campaign to end trapping years back had a provision which also wiped out hound hunting.

Damn shame. But yeah, blame the idiots who were so idiotically unsporting. As you probably know, hunting with hounds is illegal in the UK now as well. Not sure about the situation in BC now (probably the same as Wash), but a friend on mine on Vancouver Island adopted a coonhound which had been trained to go after cougars. Great dog and goes nuts if it hears anything coming near the sheep. At least there are a few southern states where they will never ban hunting with hounds! :)

Back on topic, funny thing happened with coyotes in Vancouver. They are actually in the public parks in Vancouver now. They weren't so much introduced as were night-time releases by yo-yos who went into the interior and places like that and thought that coyotes would make good house-pets. Wrong.

Take-a-knee
2006-06-10, 19:16
I understand where you westerners are coming from, but I think it is cool that we have brought top-of-the foodchain predators back from oblivion. Here in GA our DNR brought the black bear back to near carrying capacity in the N GA mountains, where the AT starts. When I was a kid you never even saw a bear track, much less a bear, now they are commonly sighted. It also gives me a good excuse to pack a pistol, which, I readily admit, I like doing. As others have already stated, I think the problems will be temporary, once they are hunted, they will avoid people and habitation. Deer and elk predation is something that will have to be proven and sportsmen will have to lobby so that the predators can also be hunted and managed. As a Christian I believe that man was placed here in dominion over all the "beasts of the earth". A lot of tree-huggers see man literally as a cancer on the earth. One of these environmental organizations has stated that the earth's population should be reduced by 90%. I would assume to make room for more critters. These morons have never seen the remains of an animal that has been ripped apart by coyotes or wolves. They can't be reasoned with, we just simply have to maintain political control to keep them from taking over. We all need to get kids involved in the outdoors, I took my eight yo daughter and her classmate fishing this morning. My daughter's friend had never been fishing before, she loved it. PETA spends huge sums on materials that get handed out by public school teachers (most of whom never were taken fishing) to brainwash kids into an anti hunting/fishing mindset.

JAK
2006-06-10, 22:20
I'm not an expert on this, but that never stopped me before.

I understand wolves,coyotes,dogs are really all the same species. It is a very plastic species, in the sence that it is highly adaptive. That is, individuals and packs and subspecies carry a lot of genetic material which allow them to adapt very quickly by cross-breeding and survival of the fittest without having to go through the long drawn out process of re-inventing the wheel by genetic mutation.

That is not to say that dogs are dogs are dogs. Here in New Brunswick we have Eastern Coyotes, which are very large coyote with some material from Eastern Wolves and, no doubt, domestic dogs, European and Native. The population is growing and they can be hunted and trapped year round with a licence but they are still doing very well. The essential thing is that they behave more like coyotes than wolves, and so we can coexist with them here, and they can coexist with us. Bears here are less of a problem also, as they are both very aware and very shy. Both control the moose and deer populations, and each other, and one another, with posing a risk or nuisance to humans. Out west I understand it is a different story. Everything seems to be bigger out there. Heck is chipmunks were 120 pounds or more and hunted in packs we would probably have to get rid of them also.

They do a nice job of keeping the Elk population healthy, so I understand.
Problem is they are not all that fussy about what is an Elk.

dropkick
2006-06-11, 01:33
I understand wolves,coyotes,dogs are really all the same species. Much like buffalo and cows are the same species.

The essential thing is that they behave more like coyotes than wolves, and so we can coexist with them here, and they can coexist with us. Bears here are less of a problem also, as they are both very aware and very shy. Both control the moose and deer populations, and each other, and one another, with posing a risk or nuisance to humans. Out west I understand it is a different story. Coyotes haven't been much of a problem here for many years (except to sheep and the occasional chickens) but that too is changing. They are getting used to humans, and now come into the outskirts of towns and are killing pets and have attacked children.
This is due to the increase in the building of houses changing their environment and also the lack of control on their population.
Due to the influence and votes of out-of-staters who have moved in and the so called "environmentalist organizations" interfering with our old hunting/trapping practices there isn't much control on them anymore.

-Strangely I see coyotes much more than I used too, but I seldom hear them howling anymore (I used to hear them almost every night during the summer).

They do a nice job of keeping the Elk population healthy, so I understand. Problem is they are not all that fussy about what is an Elk.They are devastating elk herds here. There are too many wolves for the environment, and we aren't alllowed to control them.
It's a romantic myth that wolves only take the weak from a herd. In the spring they do take the easy prey, the newborns, but the rest of the year they take almost any animal they want, not just the weak and old.
They are pack animals and hunt as a pack. I have personally seen them driving prey into an ambush. 2 or 3 wolves will herd the prey to where the rest of the pack lies hidden in wait.

-Our hunting kept the herds quite healthy for very many years, and unlike the wolves we decreased the numbers thinned from the herds if there had been a bad winter or if they needed to recover for any other reason.

blackdog
2006-06-11, 05:20
I understand wolves, coyotes, dogs are really all the same species.
Close, but no cigar. :( Wolves and dogs are the same species (canis lupus), but coyotes are of another (canis latrans).

For more information about the Canidae family go to the Animal Diversity Web and look around. You'll find good stuff on the entire family of dog-like animals (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/classification/Canidae.html#Canidae) and other families as well, such as the Bovinae family (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/classification/Bovinae.html) (buffalo, bison and cattle).

john pickett
2006-06-12, 15:50
"Heck is chipmunks were 120 pounds or more and hunted in packs we would probably have to get rid of them also."

JAK,
That's exactly the problem we face inTexas, though a 120 pound chipmunk is considered small by some of our big game hunters. :biggrin:
John Pickett