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jimtanker
2006-07-10, 19:46
A guy I know that really hates arabs posted this video.

Dont watch it if you are easily offended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEFRPgWq_b0

SowthEfrikan
2006-07-10, 20:19
The editor of the newspaper I used to work for is Muslim, and she published the Mohammed cartoons. Contrast this to the deafening silence and lack of presence of the cartoons in the US.

I 'll never understand why anyone has to "respect" any religion, especially religions that don't respect others.

I'm not sure what the video was about - are they trying to prove you can't flush it? Or are they suggesting it be used as TP?

Just Jeff
2006-07-10, 22:36
I'm not offended - I just think it's stupid. Free speech carries responsibility and saying things simply to offend others is senseless and sometimes dangerous - like yelling "fire" in a movie theater or flushing the Qur'an. Hooray for the free speech that caused riots and cost the lives of soldiers.

Incidentally, only the pure Arabic version of the Qur'an must be treated as holy - translations are not viewed in the same light b/c they've been "interpreted" by humans, while the Qur'an is a strict recitation directly from Allah through Jabril to Muhammad. At least the story goes...

And IMO, it's not the "religion" that doesn't respect other religions - Muhammad called Jews and Christians "people of the book" b/c they believe in the same God, and he showed them proper respect like standing for the funeral procession of a Jew (in the Hadith) - it's the Wahabis and Salafis that have "hijacked the religion" and would rather kill people who don't convert. Aside from the fact that the Ottomans were an empire like any other, Muslim rulers have a history of tolerating other religions in their territories and not instituting forced conversions. There was some discrimination like higher taxes for non-Muslims and preferential job postings for Muslims - but that has happened in Western history as well - contast that with the Salem witch trials or the Inquisition. Even today there are minority religions in Middle Eastern countries that live peacefully among the Muslims.

Anyway, Christians shouldn't be judged by the group that beat that Wyoming kid to death just for being gay, and the 1.3 billlion Muslims shouldn't be judged by the minority that gets the most press coverage. Muslims have as many sects and various views on religion as Christianity - it's not just "us versus them."

Off my soapbox now.

Jeff

SGT Rock
2006-07-11, 05:02
You know, I have some Muslim friends that would be highly offended by this. I can't really get behind people that just do stuff designed to offend others because they can. I know there are some people that can get offended by anything and I don't support coddling to their whims, but something like that is just plain wrong.

KLeth
2006-07-11, 09:44
Freedom of speech is not a right or freedom to offend nor provoke others.

"Jyllandsposten" ("The Jutland Post" aka. "The Jutland Plauge") the Danish paper behind the cartoons offended a lot of people including quite a lot of their fellow countrymen and other christians who felt it as a unprovoked action. I would be very much surprised if they didn't know what feelings it would it would rise.
I also don't understand that if it rose as a surprise why they didn't apologize unconditionally, instead they kept reciting their right of free speech.

Actually our right of free speech also includes the right to burn the Danish flag (Dannebrog) in Denmark.

If you step on somebodys toes you apologize, you don't keep reciting that it is a free country where you can go where you will.

I respect all people and religons, but I also expect to be respected. I treat others as I expect to be treated.

This is my 5c

Jim Henderson
2006-07-11, 13:33
This just brings us closer to their level. While I would love to get back at the trouble makers, (my actual words would probably get me booted off), a video like this does nothing to further our cause. This just gives liberal commies and the terrorists something to point out yet another example of how bad we Americans or "crusaders" are.

I wish the libs would watch that beheading video that circulates the web. That really makes clear the difference between Americans and the "trouble makers". While Americans might screw up or even perpetrate attrocities once in awhile, that is far from the norm for our behavior. And when we catch people screwing up, usually we punish them. While at least from what we see in the media, those other people perpetrate more attrocities in a day than the US does in years and the general population either does nothing or cheers them on. This is where I have a problem with them.

I hear the Marines are now being ordered to not return fire when "insurgents" fire on them from a crowd. This is a desire not to harm women and children, which is noble and the American way. Unfortunately the insurgents will probably use this as another way to strike at us without fear of retaliation, like they were doing a year or so back when they hid in Mosques and fired on US troops and then complained if someone returned fire. I expect to hear about more news stories of our troops getting harmed by insurgents firing on them from the protection of some old womens skirts.

Oh well, guess I will stop here before I get myself into trouble.

Jim Henderson

jimtanker
2006-07-11, 16:11
I hear the Marines are now being ordered to not return fire when "insurgents" fire on them from a crowd. This is a desire not to harm women and children, which is noble and the American way.


Not if I'm the one getting shot at. LOL

JAK
2006-07-11, 17:05
The golden rule should not be confused with urolagnia. :angel:

SowthEfrikan
2006-07-11, 21:45
Other than thinking of it as sitting and chatting after a long day on the trail?

Anyway, I found the reactions really interesting and I'd like to comment on a few - hope you don't mind. :-)

Respect is earned. Absolutely treat someone the way you want to be treated, but don't expect the same treatment in return. Unfortunately that is assuming too much.

Allah is not the Christian god. The Christian god is derived from the Jewish, but the Muslim is one god chosen from the pagan plethora. It happened to be the god worshipped by Mohammed's tribe and was associated with the moon. Crescent moon ring a bell? If you have the time and inclination try to find out more about the topic, it's fascinating stuff. The bottom line is that Muslims, Christians and Jews are into a god of some kind or other. Two have a loving god, one does not. But not all three are the same, despite the perception.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, as long as people who claim to be religious commit atrocities in the name of that religion, or remain silent when atrocities are committed. I am not religious, and there have been abundant atrocities by we, the disbelieving, too.

The Danish newspaper created a Mohammed cartoon competition when someone wrote a book about him and the religion of peace, but could not find anyone to illustrate it as everyone was afraid of ... guess what? So it was an act of protest, to highlight what is happening. It was courageous of the newspapers to do so, and courageous of my ex-editor to publish, too. Especially given her background - my gosh, a woman, a muslim? Get thee back under the burkah. So, take note. Many Muslims are downright evil. Many others are not. This particular editor is truly rare. Someone who is not afraid to speak out, even when others of her own faith condemn her to burn for all eternity.

So, no, I do not respect all people and all religions.

Also, the reason Islam is supposedly hijacked is because of ALL of Mohammed's writing. Unfortunately this god couldn't quite make up his mind when chatting away to Mohammed, and contradicted itself in lotsa hadiths. But then, there's a bit of that in the Bible, too.

The difference is that when a kid is beaten to death in the US, there is universal outrage. Can you imagine if the ANC had mass murdered white children the way schoolchildren were murdered by Muslims in Chechnya? Their support would have evaporated in the west in a nanosecond. Somehow, Chechnya just was not that much of a problem for far too many Muslims.

I tend to ditto most of Jim's post. Except I would call insurgents for what they are, terrorists.

It's going to take a lot more than books chucked in toilets to sink to their level. You might want to start off with beheading innocent people, and applauding, or remaining silent.

So, given the real world, and outrage, I simply can't get upset by that video. As you gather, I am opinionated, and I really don't mind if you totally disagree.

This so reminds me why I love hiking - getting away from all this stuff.

Frolicking Dino
2006-07-11, 22:11
About the video - huh? What is the point?

About dissing Islam - I don't want anyone dissing my beliefs and I'm not going to dis theirs. I know too many Muslims to believe that they all support Al Quida. They were in tears with the rest of us on 9/11.

Al Quida is to Islam what the people who bomb abortion clinics are to Christianity - extremists who do not have the support of the mainstream members of the faith.

Just Jeff
2006-07-11, 23:17
Allah is not the Christian god. The Christian god is derived from the Jewish, but the Muslim is one god chosen from the pagan plethora. It happened to be the god worshipped by Mohammed's tribe and was associated with the moon. Crescent moon ring a bell? If you have the time and inclination try to find out more about the topic, it's fascinating stuff. The bottom line is that Muslims, Christians and Jews are into a god of some kind or other. Two have a loving god, one does not. But not all three are the same, despite the perception.

Eh? I'd surely like to learn more about this - can you point me to your source?

blackbishop351
2006-07-11, 23:21
I really REALLY shouldn't even comment on this. But. I suppose I can't help it.

I'm an athiest. I say this first so there's no ambiguity. IMHO, there are VERY FEW truly devout, understanding, considerate, un-hypocritical religious people in the world. All the rest are just using religion as an excuse. From what I can see, religion helps the masses endure personal hardship, as well as mask prejudice or ignorance.

Religious ideals teach compassion and acceptance, but organized religion in pretty much ANY form only serves to divide people. I don't accept, condone, or even want to HEAR about organized religious practices. If people need to believe in something, they can do it in the privacy of their own homes. Which, incidentally, is no more restricted than many of the other "freedoms" we enjoy. Just my .02.

blackbishop351
2006-07-11, 23:24
Two have a loving god, one does not.

I'm curious. Which one of the three doesn't? I don't know if you've read the Torah/Old testament, but that god doesn't seem to me to be terribly warm and fuzzy...

But I'm right there with you on the "why I like to get outdoors" part.

SowthEfrikan
2006-07-12, 09:49
Lots of smitting by a loving god. Never have been able to reconcile all of that. Our gods are filled with our human failings. That's one of the reasons I stepped out of religion. However, I don't mind where people practice - in schools or elsewhere, just as long as everyone else gets equal floor space.

Really don't want to get into a long discussion, but here are a couple of suggestions. Find out more about Rushdie, why he wrote Satanic Verses, what the verses are, and how they came to be. Also, instead of taking Bible class alone, suggest they read not just the Koran (which I found pretty heavy going as the language felt so unfamiliar, and might be better to do in a group to stay motivated), but what you can of all of Mohammed's work as Muslims don't just stick to the Koran. There is good, there is bad, and there is controversy. There are sources everywhere, including the net.

Have fun exploring. I'm done with this topic.

Just Jeff
2006-07-12, 11:10
Thanks for the reply, SE - I agree about the smiting by a loving god. I'm not religious, either. Spiritual, maybe, but not religious.

I was specifically asking for a source that Allah is distilled from a pagan god, though. Do you remember where you first heard that? As I'm in the process of getting a masters degree in Middle East studies, I'm very interested in reading your source.

We don't have to continue this as a long discussion, and I'd ask you to PM it to me if you don't want to post it here. Seriously, I just want to study what you're talking about.

If anyone does want to continue the discussion, have a look at the Qur'an, Surah 1, verse 136. Keep in mind that "Allah" isn't a name - it's just the Arabic word for "God" so they're not talking a separate incarnation...it's just like us using the word God.


2.136: Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

Ibrahim is the same Abraham, Ismail is the same Ismail, Ishaq is Isaac, Yaqoub is Jacob, Musa is Moses, etc. They even believe Jesus was a prophet - religious doctrine says he is equal to Muhammad, though in practice some prophets are more equal than others, obviously.


2.139: Say: Do you dispute with us about Allah, and He is our Lord and your Lord, and we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds, and we are sincere to Him.

A little room for interpretation in there, but this says to me that they're claiming it's the same God.

That was a pretty bold statement you made, SE - I'm just asking for a source.

Take-a-knee
2006-07-13, 00:40
Do any of you guys know any Zoroastrians? Now that was a peaceful religion I'm told. Ever heard of the three wise men that visited the baby Jesus? Do a little research on what happened to the Zoroastrians. Religion of "Peace" my ass! I live near an air force base and I grew up hearing sonic booms, ever since I got back from Iraq they scare the wits out of me 'cause I heard so damned many IED's go off around Bagdhad. They ain't all bein' set off by "Al Qaeda" either. Most of the IED's are set by "Ali Baba", thugs that are paid by God only knows who, but I have my suspicions.

An objective perusal of history will demonstrate that where the shadow of the Galilean has passed, children are cherised, old people are honored, the sick are cared for. You think the advent of modern medicine just happened in the west by accident? The Arabs had their Koran and the writings of Aristotle for 500 years, they never did a thing with them. Fatalism constrains those people to an angonizing existence and it WILL NEVER CHANGE as long as they adhere to it. The scientific method could never have come to pass in a million years in a culture dominated by Islamic fatalism. The pursuit of science is, in the words of astronomer Johahn Kepler, "To think God's thoughts after him."

blackbishop351
2006-07-13, 01:22
Take-a-Knee -

Not that I'm advocating the Islamic religion in any way; as I said before, I'm an athiest. Nor am I belittling in any way what you've gone through over there. I can't even imagine what it might have been like.

But. Where do you think science and mathematics came from in the first place? The Arab invasions of southern and eastern Europe brought sciences, technologies, and mathematics FAR removed from what had been developed locally. So far removed that most historians don't even venture to guess how long it might have taken the Europeans to develop these things on their own.

Check out "A History of Mathematics" by Boyer if you're interested. I'm a math geek, but it's also a good read just from the historical perspective.

Just Jeff
2006-07-13, 01:38
Muslims were doing surgery in the 16th century when Europe was still leeching out bad spirits.

They were left behind b/c the Ottomans remained an empire while Europe was busy building states. Several reasons for that, but the end result is that they became colonies after WWI and the new empires prevented their growth...standard practice for colonial rulers.

I'm not an Arab, a Muslim or even an apologist for either - but the basic principles in their histories aren't much different from ours. Every Western state became stable through military conquest - both internal and external conquest - even though we like to say it was a natural course of events or that we're destined to be the shining citadel on the hill. And now we won't let other states do the same. Charles Tilly explains how that process worked for Western Europe - Ian Lustik and Gregory Gause applied it well to the Middle East.

Take-a-knee
2006-07-13, 09:25
Okay, so a few arabs learned to count really well, and a few more learned to cut out boils, so what? My point is they never did anything with it. Today, most of them still can't read, and , from what I've seen, they haven't learned to pick up trash yet either. I'll tell you why that is so, they are imprisoned by their worldview. They get up everyday thinking they have to do pennance to a tyranical, judgemental god. Those that can read and take their religion seriously think that they should have a government that is totally based on their religion, ie, Sharia law. Sharia law is basically Jerry Falwell times ten. Only those nations that don't base their governments on the Koran have decent economies, and those in charge in those nations fear the "Koran Thumpers". As human beings we all deserve to be accorded a certain amount of dignity, but all cultures are not of equal value, neither are all religions, contrary to what idiot professors may pontificate. I am sick of bastards who enjoy the fruit of the labor of those who built this nation and get up in front of a bunch of young "skulls-full-of mush", and berate the 55 signers of the Declaration as a bunch of slave-owning tyrants. What happened in America was not an accident, and it wasn't all accomplished by "military conquest". America did start out as John Winthrop envisioned as " A city upon a hill". I don't think we'll maintain that course, but that is how it started, and that is why we all share the blessings we have today.

blackbishop351
2006-07-13, 10:27
Ok..this'll be my last post on this thread, if for no better reason than I'm in college; I can find political/historical discussions whenever I want. I come here to talk about hiking :biggrin:

Knee, I think you've got a good head on your shoulders. I think you're well-meaning and I think you've got some good ideas. But like so many well-meaning people, I think you don't always take the time to examine some of your opinions closely enough.

For example, you say this:


As human beings we all deserve to be accorded a certain amount of dignity...
I'm right there with you on that one, as I'm sure we all are. Then you follow with this:


I'll tell you why that is so, they are imprisoned by their worldview. ... Only those nations that don't base their governments on the Koran have decent economies, and those in charge in those nations fear the "Koran Thumpers".
Perhaps a little biased, but still reasonable. Incidentally, aren't all religions guilty of this, though? Christian and Jewish regions have suffered the same fate throughout history. THEN...you say this:


...but all cultures are not of equal value, neither are all religions...
At this point, many people just turn off altogether. Myself, I did a doubletake because this was so far away from the sentiments I had thought you were trying to express. Shall we continue?


I am sick of bastards who ... berate the 55 signers of the Declaration as a bunch of slave-owning tyrants. What happened in America was not an accident, and it wasn't all accomplished by "military conquest". America did start out as John Winthrop envisioned as " A city upon a hill". I don't think we'll maintain that course, but that is how it started, and that is why we all share the blessings we have today....
Now you've just gone further off the path. You DO realize that America's very existence is due to the government's persecution of the Native Americans, right? And while this campaign wasn't entirely waged in the "normal military fashion", there are other types of military conquest. Just ask a Green Beret.

Then we address America's financial prosperity, which is due in large part to slavery. Yes, the rest of the world participated too. Some to a larger degree than the US. I'll still never be proud of it.

If the US is to survive in the new global economy, we're going to have to come to terms with a couple of things.

First, we're not better than anybody. In fact, as far as most of the world is concerned, we're worse. The best part of the world hates us, and I can't say that I always disagree. Your assessment of the religious restrictions in Arab countries is reasonable, I think. But the other side of that coin is that WE, to a large extent, have allowed the zealots over there to flourish. The US, like so many other Western countries, has been using the people of the Middle East for time immemorium. And as soon as a certain group no longer serves our purpose, we leave them hanging out to dry. Is it any wonder they hate us? Is it any wonder they cling so strongly to their religion and avoid Western influence?

Second, once we realize we're not the rulers of the world anymore, we're going to have to start recognizing the value of other cultures. Because as technology advances, these other cultures, like Mexico and China, are going to be providing us with the essentials like agriculture and textiles. If we're all computer technicians in 20 years (which we very well might be), we're not going to have time to produce our own food.

So. Thats it, The End. As always, just my .02 :biggrin:

Just Jeff
2006-07-13, 11:29
First off, I think we have the best country in the world. That's why I'm in the military defending it. We've based our nation on a set of principles that attempt to preserve the individual as the key aspect of our society. But that doesn't mean I have to buy into the story-book narrative of history that glosses over the bad parts and preaches the good parts. Don't drink too much of your own Kool-Aid.


Today, most of them still can't read

Well, that depends on how you define "most" I guess. Excluding the African countries, the Middle East has literacy rates from 75-90%. If 25% is "most" in your view, well, continue forming your opinions as you wish.

"Sharia law is basically Jerry Falwell times ten."

Really? Or is that just the view of it in the Western media? Have you looked at this beyond the Western media or beyond a Christian-based source?

Why do many Muslim women CHOOSE to live under sharia if they're so persecuted by it? Why, praytell, did the Iranian clerics criticize the Taliban because what they were doing WASN'T in accordance with the Sharia?

All Sharia means is rule according to the will of Allah...it doesn't mean putting women in burkhas and throwing acid on them for disobeying. Our American laws are based in Judeo-Christian tenets just the same. Even though we like to tout our separation of Church and State...we've had exactly one non-Protestant President, and it'll probably be so for the foreseeable future.

Imprisoned by their worldview? Probably. But so is America at the moment. Just because we're the biggest empire at the moment doesn't mean we're perfect. "My name is Ozymandias..."

Iceman
2006-07-13, 11:36
Ok..this'll be my last post on this thread,...................So. Thats it, The End. :

Come on BlackBishop351. You cannot just walk away after a reply like yours. Doesn't really seem fair to deliver your message and just walk off. You really wandered off the subject matter here a bit, even further than the tangent we were travelling. Even piqued some anger in me, by injecting indians and slavery into the discussion.

You should really be prepared to defend your points and opinions. Otherwise, your points and opinions will suffer a diminshed value.

jimtanker
2006-07-13, 16:08
Hey, I'm sorry guys. I didn't mean to stir up a whole pot of oatmeal like this. I didn't think that everyone would act like .5L of water on my ION stove after 5 min over this video.

JAK
2006-07-14, 08:36
First off, I think we have the best country in the world.You are actually second best, with nice broad shoulders to stand on. :)

p.s. Thanks for that.

JAK
2006-07-14, 08:39
I think New Zealand would be a pretty cool place to live also.
There must be a lot of nice little corners of this world.

Here is a really nice photo of Iran of all places:
http://www.dejkam.com/iran/gilan_mazandaran/photo.php?ino=7

Go figure?

JAK
2006-07-14, 08:46
Nature photos from North Korea:

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/nature_e.html

TerribleTom
2006-07-18, 20:09
Allah is not the Christian god. The Christian god is derived from the Jewish, but the Muslim is one god chosen from the pagan plethora. It happened to be the god worshipped by Mohammed's tribe and was associated with the moon. Crescent moon ring a bell? If you have the time and inclination try to find out more about the topic, it's fascinating stuff. The bottom line is that Muslims, Christians and Jews are into a god of some kind or other. Two have a loving god, one does not. But not all three are the same, despite the perception.

That is just straight up wrong. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the 'God of Abraham'. Anything you've read to the contrary is conjecture and probably intended to advance some anti-Muslim agenda. 'Allah' is more or less Arabic for the Hebrew 'Jehovah'.

I didn't watch the video. I don't care if it's hilarious or just offensive.

There are vocal and/or militant minorities in all populations, regardless of race/religion/nationality.

The only belief I cannot abide is a belief that denies others the right to believe as they choose.

Take-a-knee
2006-07-18, 23:23
Yes, yes, yes I was wrong, ALL RELIGIONS ARE TRUE. they must be, for if they are not, why, someone might possibly be...(gasp!!!!!!)... OFFENDED! Now we wouldn't want that would we?

Far greater minds than ours have grappled with these historical facts and theological beliefs and theories. All religions make contradictory claims. They cannot all be true. It is far more logical to assert that all religions are false than to say they are all true, though you cannot logically prove a negative assertion. IE, I cannot categorically state that a man could never have a penis growing out of his forehead. I can only state that I've never seen such an occurence. All religions represent a genuine pursuit of truth. Unfortunately, the truth can be quite exclusive in theology much the same as it is in physics.

If then, all religions are false, how did we get here, where did the matter come from that is everything we know?

blackbishop351
2006-07-18, 23:54
LMAO @ knee...

You sound a bit frustrated, man!

I'm an athiest and a physicist....not hard to figure out where I stand on that last question :biggrin:

Iceman
2006-07-19, 04:02
[QUOTE=Take-a-knee]... I cannot categorically state that a man could never have a penis growing out of his forehead....QUOTE]

On a lighter note, some have gone as far as to call to me "hey...dickhead!" I even have a party hat I designed with a phallus hanging out from under the brim, people look at me bewildered, I ignore until they ask..."what the?" and I reply..."I'm a dickhead...." :biggrin: You just have to be brave enough to wear the damn thing, but it works..... I am still working on a hat for my wife... :biggrin:

Sorry, off topic...

JAK
2006-07-19, 12:07
All religions make contradictory claims. They cannot all be true.Why not? What about Grace?

Jewish Proverb:
What do you call a Jew that doesn't believe in God? Answer: A Jew.
That sounds like that would be me, if I was Jewish.

Islam:
Don't know that much about it, but I understand if you have been a sinner, even a criminal, all of your life,
and then give a thirsty dog a drink of water before you die then you can be saved by Grace. To me that sounds very familiar.

Christian Faith, Hope, and Charity:
Do the beatitudes not apply to all faiths, and athiests also? God knows, but for my sake I hope so.

Hindus etc.
see above

Mathew 5
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went upinto a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


And the beat goes on, the beat goes on.

SowthEfrikan
2006-07-19, 20:10
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

Excellent links under resources.

Amigi
2006-07-20, 22:35
"If you can't find God in the woods, you sure as hell can find him in Church."

I don't know you said that, but it sure is true.

Just Jeff
2006-07-21, 01:41
"This thread belongs on Whiteblaze"

Please don't do that...it's had its run.