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incognito
2006-07-29, 14:37
Working on one.

Had idea to use 4 inch aluminum elbow. Twisted it to form straight piece. All of its lines give it strength and character :) Shows it compared to heinekin pot. pot fits inside for storage, u shaped stainless piece inserted through upper row of holes holds pot while heating.

Secret to cleaner/less soot cooking is the use of completely dried, no bark twigs. Put pot of water on when fire is hot. Never restrict oxygen.

I use jute twine as tinder starter. Lights with a spark. I use ferrocerium rod and steel striker. I carry the flint and striker on my key chain. Always have them with me. Fire starting tinder can always be found in the woods, even in wet/drenched woods if you know where to look. Learn how, it may save your life someday. Hypothermia kills!!!

Stove drafts really nice, 3/8 inch space around pot when set into stove.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/hobostov004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/hobostov003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/hobostov002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/hobostov001.jpg

Take-a-knee
2006-07-29, 15:03
Dude, that is awesome! I must build one! Hypothermia does indeed kill.

JAK
2006-07-29, 15:36
Cool.
You may find the aluminum will melt and burn unless it has water in it.
But I think you know that and how to avoid having your stove eaten.

Thanks for the tip on the tinder and firestarter. Gotta get me one of those firestarters. The dead branches that snap off the bottom of Spruce trees are always dry here. They are the most common tree here. Birch bark is also great fuel of course. A little easier to start, but a little more sooty also. It took me awhile to learn that grass and leaves suck.

Take-a-knee
2006-07-29, 16:27
That is a good tip on stripping the bark off of your firewood, all bark is fire-resistant, therefore it smokes a lot when burned. There was an immigrant living on the really mean streets of Washington DC many years ago. He kept looking through this high fence at the lovely woods on the other side, it looked a lot nicer than where he was living. He figured out it was the National Zoo. He found an area with no dangerous animals and dug a perfect "hide-site" out of view. It gets cold in DC in the winter so he stripped the bark of his firewood. I think he lived there a couple of years without detection.

Frolicking Dino
2006-07-29, 17:13
I haven't seen one of these in years. That is sweet stove - brings back many happy memories.

JAK
2006-07-29, 19:10
That is a good tip on stripping the bark off of your firewood, all bark is fire-resistant, therefore it smokes a lot when burned. There was an immigrant living on the really mean streets of Washington DC many years ago. He kept looking through this high fence at the lovely woods on the other side, it looked a lot nicer than where he was living. He figured out it was the National Zoo. He found an area with no dangerous animals and dug a perfect "hide-site" out of view. It gets cold in DC in the winter so he stripped the bark of his firewood. I think he lived there a couple of years without detection.That's a neat story. I love stories like that. I'm not sure what it is about them. Something about freedom and simplicity and the best things in life being free.

dropkick
2006-07-29, 20:12
Long time ago I read about a man who had built a hidden dugout in Central Park. Lived in it for something like 15 years. Towards the end they knew he was living in the park and had the dugout but they couldn't find it.
I think I read about it in Readers Digest.

incognito
2006-07-30, 00:38
It would be nice if someone could find the articles you speak off and post them.

Fired up the stove tonight and got some photos.

They show how most of the heat goes up the center and not out the front where the fuel is fed in.

When you are hiking look around you, there is fuel without bark attached, no need to strip it off. Take your time, plan ahead, collect it as you move along to your destination.

Used a vegetable can as my pot(Hiny one won't fit because of cork insulation) Can holds almost 2 cups water. Rolling boil at 7 min. Boiled over the side and put the stove almost out.

Stoves are fun. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/hobostov005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/hobostov008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/hobostov007.jpg

I'm on my way to recovery!!!!!!

JAK
2006-07-30, 00:56
That looks really great.

I've used a swiss corked flask stove as a wood stove and learned not to melt it. It's like a miniature of what you have built. It's a bit messy, but it works well in winter because you can carry water in the flask and if it freezes it doesn't explode and you can thaw it. I've learned to use more dry sticks and less bark as you suggest. I keep 3 or 4 sticks long and feed them in as they burn. Sometimes I drip some wax or feed a little birch bark to help keep it going. You know the spruce sticks are dry enough if they snap apart. Eastern white cedar works well also, even if its never quite as snappy.

http://west.loadup.com/military/surplus/12644.html

incognito
2006-07-30, 18:40
The swiss one is small, like you say. I'm a big guy, eat alot, need four cups of water per sitting :smile:

JAK
2006-07-30, 19:01
So like me you've got the economy of scale working for you eh. :biggrin:

Turk
2006-07-30, 19:33
well... fine... be that way. I was sworn off any more stove foolery. Been
back to wood again. ...:bawling:

Seeing your micro-hobo pics ... is like heroine... must... have....
Now I just have to make one similar to yours. :motz: :mad: :thefinger
that looks too awesome! I didnt know you could get little hobos to fire
properly. Thought they had to be around the 1 gallon size. Brilliant
material usage. Very Nice photos.

Some questions

Do you think I could get away with a very light 30g elbow?
or did you find it a bit flimsy and recommend a C-vent 90 (26g)?
What type did you use? I am guessing 28g by the pictures.
How about smaller diameter... 3" elbow? too small, any problems you
could forsee?
Also do you think I could use a swing damper as the base plate for
the fire instead of the mesh?

JAK
2006-07-30, 19:47
I didnt know you could get little hobos to fire.Better stick with wood Turk. The SPCA would have a fit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Thelittlesthobo.jpg

oops56
2006-08-01, 02:40
Volcano stove now what is wrong withs this type all ready made. As far is i can see it needs new vent holes just below the cup about 3 burning dry ceder fresh cut off my tress in the dark time 1.30 a m
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_vol1.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/vol1.jpg)
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_vol2.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/vol2.jpg)

JAK
2006-08-01, 08:11
Volcano stove now what is wrong withs this type all ready made. As far is i can see it needs new vent holes just below the cup about 3 burning dry ceder fresh cut off my tress in the dark time 1.30 a m
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_vol1.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/vol1.jpg)
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_vol2.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/vol2.jpg)I think the correct term is "Swiss Corked Flask Canteen Stove Thingamajiggy", but I have heard 'volcano stove' used to refer to them as well as the 'Kelly Kettle' type, and others. Do the vent holes allow secondary air in, or smoke out?

I find you need to go easy on the aluminum, especially once the water gets hot, and the wood fuel has burned off its moisture. A little bit of deformation is OK, as you can bend it back, but it is easy to burn the aluminum at the top of the large vent, and where the little bit of steel poke through the aluminum at the back to hold up the flask or cup. Also helps if you always have either the flask or cup in it, with water of course. If the stove gets too hot I switch one with hot water for the other with cold water until it settles down. Or I just pull some sticks out, as I find that native trick of feedin sticks in as they burn works very well.

Some idea for improvements to this stove I haven't tried:
1. Replace outer aluminum stove with steel can if you can find right size.
2. Two stacked cans might work if you can't get the right size.
3. Keeping the aluminum, but lining it on the inside with muffler tape.
4. If you line it inside and outside the corrugation might act as insulation.
5. You might get away with a blue foam and muffler tape on outside.
6. Adding a really tall wind screen of aluminum foil and muffler tape.
7. One or two inverted tuna cans or round tins with the right vents and baffles might serve as a primary and secondary combustion chambers to increase combustion temperature and reduce smoke.
8.A little fireclay or muffler tape might make an even better combustion chamber, but ideally it should be removable of nestable so the stove can still be stored compactly.
9. A tin with lid might be used to produce and store charcoal for the stove.
10. All of this will add weight, but might reduce smoke, either by allowing a smaller fire and/or improved combustion.

p.s. Might be a good stove to modify for baking a potato. :biggrin:

JAK
2006-08-01, 08:28
Here is a good summary of principles for "rocket stove" type.
Most of these ideas and principles should work in miniature.
Some might be heavy or cumbersome, but can be adapted.

http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Still/Rocket%20Stove/Principles.html

1.) Insulate, particularly the combustion chamber, with low mass, heat resistant materials in order to keep the fire as hot as possible and not to heat the higher mass of the stove body.

2.) Within the stove body, above the combustion chamber, use an insulated, upright chimney of a height that is about two or three times the diameter before extracting heat to any surface (griddle, pots, etc.).

3.) Heat only the fuel that is burning (and not too much). Burn the tips of sticks as they enter the combustion chamber, for example. The object is NOT to produce more gasses or charcoal than can be cleanly burned at the power level desired.

4.) Maintain a good air velocity through the fuel. The primary Rocket stove principle and feature is using a hot, insulated, vertical chimney within the stove body that increases draft.

5.) Do not allow too much or too little air to enter the combustion chamber. We strive to have stoichiometric (chemically ideal) combustion: in practice there should be the minimum excess of air supporting clean burning.

6.) The cross sectional area (perpendicular to the flow) of the combustion chamber should be sized within the range of power level of the stove. Experience has shown that roughly twenty-five square inches will suffice for home use (four inches in diameter or five inches square). Commercial size is larger and depends on usage.

7.) Elevate the fuel and distribute airflow around the fuel surfaces. When burning sticks of wood, it is best to have several sticks close together, not touching, leaving air spaces between them. Particle fuels should be arranged on a grate.

8.) Arrange the fuel so that air largely flows through the glowing coals. Too much air passing above the coals cools the flames and condenses oil vapors.

9.) Throughout the stove, any place where hot gases flow, insulate from the higher mass of the stove body, only exposing pots, etc. to direct heat.

10.) Transfer the heat efficiently by making the gaps as narrow as possible between the insulation covering the stove body and surfaces to be heated but do this without choking the fire. Estimate the size of the gap by keeping the cross sectional area of the flow of hot flue gases constant. EXCEPTION: When using a external chimney or fan the gaps can be substantially reduced as long as adequate space has been left at the top of the internal short chimney for the gasses to turn smoothly and distribute evenly. This is tapering of the manifold. In a common domestic griddle stove with external chimney, the gap under the griddle can be reduced to about one half inch for optimum heat transfer.

Credit: Dr. Larry Winiarski.

Also:
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Still/Rocket%20Stove/satnight5.gif
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
(see: 'Institutional Rocket Stove' pdf on page above)
(see 'Ten Design Principles for Wood Burning Stoves' pdf on page above)
(see 'Design Principles for Wood Burning Cook Stoves' pdf on page above)

This last link has lots of technical information on space gaps and insulating ceramics. These household stoves are designed for about 5 litre pots, and use a draft area of about 25 square inches, so to scale them down this might mean about 4 square inches for a 1 litre pot, or 1 square inch per 250ml. The rocket stove has a chimney under the pot which is about 3 time the height of its diameter. This provides draft, time and space for combustion, and separation from the cold pot to increase combustion temperature and efficiency. For a 355 ml beer can 1.4 square inches of draft would be 1.25" in diameter and 3.75" high. Including 1" fuel, and 4.8"Hx2.75"D for the can, and 1/4" air gap on sides, and 1/4" insulation on sides, the stove would measure 9.5"H and 3.75" in diameter. It is essentially a hobbo stove except that the pot sits down all the way into the stove, and the stove is twice the height of the can, and the combustion chamber is tall and well insulated.

I see 3 simple parts to this stove, for a 500ml pot or cup:
1. A 6"H x 2.0"D tube of muffler tape or tin can. A 1.5" hole 0.5" from bottom, to lift fuel. Slots at top to space pot.
2. A 10"H x 4.0"D dryer vent, or similar wind screen, perhaps double walled. A 1.5" hole at bottom for air and fuel.
3. A short 1.5"D tube to line up holes for air and fuel and keep sand out. Easy assembly on site.
4. Dry debris from site to insulate between combustion chamber and screen.

The packing debris doesn't need to be fireproof, but it should be light and dry. Could use fibreglass. Sand is probably too dense. Loose soil and moss might be OK. Pack it loose but try to seal it at the top. When you are finished cooking save the char to start your next fire. The packing debris also adds some stability. For extra stability you could make the dryer vent 1" taller and sink it into the ground. The outer wind screen could fold in half and roll up around the combustion tube, and the combustion tube would fit into the pot. Alternatively a rigid dryer vent could be used and stored around water bottle. For a 1000ml corked flask, say 3.5"D x 9"H, you might need a combustion tube 2"D x 6"H and a windscreen 4"D x 16"H. You could roll it up with the sleeping pad. If you had a taller stove pipe you could heat up two corked flasks at once, or even bake a potato and bake bread on the bottom while making coffee and heating supper up top. For winter camping you could perhaps have a stove made of stovepipe, and leave the rest of the stove at home. I think these same principles and ideas might work with a wax, oil, or isopropanol stove, to reduce smoke and increase efficiency.

incognito
2006-08-01, 23:59
If it wasn't so hot out here I would have cooked some hot dogs on my little hobo.

Turk!!!!! never ever swear off of making another stove. Never----ever do that :damnmate:

It's ok to make one once in a while :biggrin:

Oops, it's ok for you to buy them on ebay also!!!!!!!!!

The Volcano and Swiss Cork stoves look like they work really good.(1:30 A.M. Oops you are trully a STOVIE) For some reason I always associate the worse case of soot with cone bearing trees, weather they be completely dried out or not. Help me out here guys, how does that fuel REALLY burn?

Homemade stoves RULE, make em and they'll burn!!!! Tweek em and they get better. Always think of how you can make em better. Design Design Design

Turk, thanks for the cudos. When I'm not rushed my photos turn out better.


Do you think I could get away with a very light 30g elbow?
or did you find it a bit flimsy and recommend a C-vent 90 (26g)?
What type did you use? I am guessing 28g by the pictures.
How about smaller diameter... 3" elbow? too small, any problems you
could forsee?
Also do you think I could use a swing damper as the base plate for
the fire instead of the mesh?

I don't think you'll get away with the 30g elbow, too flimsy/wimpy.

The 3" is too small for me, got big fingers would be difficult to feed twigs/fuel into it.

The swing damper sounds like it might work out ok. Punch/drill some holes in itto allow air flow under it. Mount it 1/2 inch off the bottom. Make it out of heavy guage aluminum.

The 1/2 in. hardware cloth that I used for the twig support fit snug against the walls of the stove not tight. I was able to light my prepared tinder pile without having the stove in my way. Once it was for sure going to stay lit I put the stove over it and then added more twigs and then put the pot of water on top. Starts to heating the water like right now!!!!!! By having a swing damper you would have to work in confined quarters and maybe have a hard time inserting a support grid of somekind for added fuel. Always wanting to provide oxygen to your burning fuel to keep it going. Just as it states in the great information provide by JAK ( thanks much for the info on the rocket stove, lots of good info there to consider for future use and for the present use also) Keep the twigs/sticks separated a little to get air passing around them.

I had to stay close at hand to feed fuel into the stove, dry wood burns fast. I got a 7 min. boil I think it was. 7 min. goes by pretty fast when your having fun :biggrin:


If you look at my photos you can see the stove is burning pretty hot, flames going up and out above the rim of the stove. Will take a little practice to govern the rate of adding fuel. I've only made 2 burn tests, but look forward to alot more. Something about a wood burning stove thats comforting. The flikering flames etc. etc. When the weather cools, I be going out for a 3 dayer with this little wood burner, alcohol stays home.

JAK, I'll have to make a hard copy of all the info you gave and read it a couple of times to get the best out of it (during the day when I can function :biggrin:

Everybody!!!!!! Never----Ever swear--off making stoves. Repeat after me: "I LOVE MAKING STOVES"

By the way!!!!!! the little u shaped stainless steel piece comes from a windshield wiper blade.(the piece that supports the pot) It acts as a stiffener/support piece for the rubber. It's one of the handiest pieces of small ss that you can have around. Quick lube places have lots of them in their trash during the early winter season when everybody gets their wiper blades changed. They can be used to unlock your car if you accidently lock your keys inside. Ther are many many uses for these strips of ss. Thats one for the books. If you have heard of it before, disregard.

JAK
2006-08-07, 18:24
I am thinking more and more than the windscreen really IS the stove,
and what we often call a stove is really just the burner. Of course we know it is the whole system that is important, the fuel, the burner, the windscreen, and the pot. I think when we go for more efficienct though, and try to get more heat transfer on the sides of the pot, the wind screen needs to be thick and insulated, but still be light, and temperature resistant on the inside.

I have been thinking about windscreens that insulate better, but are still light, and won't melt even at high temperatures. With a hobbo stove there is a lot of air flow on the inside, so if there is any wind on the outside there is really no resistance to convective and conductive heat transfer, only radiant. One answer is a double wall, essentially two wind screens. Fiberglass wool insulation could separate them. I suspect aluminum on the inside would melt and burn if it got hot enough, but it would be OK on the outside. For a simple steel can hobbo stove you could add a thin layer of fibreglass wool and aluminum muffler tape. You then might even be able to lift the stove quickly while it is hot. I suspect the performance might improve considerably when you are operating with a small efficient fire.

Of course steel cans are heavy, and they absorb a lot of heat also. Perhaps if you eliminated the steel can, but kept the aluminum muffler tape and fibreglass wool, and then a thin layer of fibreglass drywall tape on the inside that you smeared with clay dirt not and then. You could make a windscreen/stove any size you want this way. It might even roll up when not in use. The other route is to keep the pot and windscreen all together at all times, like a Kelly Kettle, which is inside out, or that new gas fired thing. I think if you do keep it all together it would be nice if it was kept compact like 4" in diameter and 10" high, or two 6" high parts staked. It would also be convenient if you could carry water in it, especially in winter, but still be able to scrub it out and cook in it and melt snow in it.

Well I have talked long enough. Time to build something. :damnmate:
Give me another week, as I am way behind on my report, totally unrelated.

eyewall
2006-08-23, 00:58
I was just holding two of those SS pieces in my hand yesterday after changing my wiper blades. I was standing there looking at them, and trying to figure out what I could use them for. Man, thanks for the suggestions!!

incognito
2006-08-30, 23:54
Eyewall------I'm going to make 2 pot handles using the wiper blade stainless steel strips. Just recently purchased 2 aluminum cake pans that are 2 in. deep and 6 inches in diameter. They weigh approx. 1/2 ounce more than a Kmart grease pot. Cost 5.95 each at Michaels craft store. Boil times are same as grease pot. Use 2 salvaged boy scout issue pot lids, they fit perfect. Will post photos as soon as they are available. Daughter getting married this comming Sat. Last one of the three children to make it to the altar. Have to wait till next week to play stovie

jazilla
2006-08-31, 09:40
You guys are some stove making fool. The ideas you all put in my head. Luck for y'all my wife doesn't know where I get the ideas. She thinks my stove making is crazy. Little does she know its all part of my plan for hikers to take over the world (insert evil laugh)......

Incog nice pictures. I have been looking at a wood burner design for a while but this helps a lot.

Turk
2006-08-31, 17:53
Incognito what was the final weight on your stove?

incognito
2006-08-31, 20:05
Turk-----Total weight came out to 71.5 grams/2.52 ounces

What is the weight of yours and what diameter did you use on yours?

Jazilla, don't let your wife know where the ideas come from, if she ever comes here and starts asking ?'s, we know NOTHING-Nada-Zilch hope you get to makin some stoves soon, we need some fresh ideas. Soon as things slow down around home I'll show you one I made out of an aluminum sardine can and 35mm jingle bell and a redbull can(whole) and a boyscout water canteen.

Turk
2006-09-01, 19:10
you beat me good. I ended up 3.24 oz. Need to change my wiper blades soon though, so I can cut some weight from the pot stand.

incognito
2006-09-17, 11:59
Turk, was reading the thread about your Ti Zip.

This is a quote from this thread:
I had to stay close at hand to feed fuel into the stove, dry wood burns fast. I got a 7 min. boil I think it was. 7 min. goes by pretty fast when your having fun

The hobo weighs only 2.52 ounces and requires no batteries

The hobo you made should be close to that by now.

Why did you purchase a Ti zip, and at what cost?

Turk
2006-09-17, 15:06
The Ti Zip I got was used. Paid $85.00 for it including shipping which at the time I thought was very good. One of the biggest reasons I wanted it was to see if it cold easily be disassembled to use as a straigt convection vent wood burner. Basically just the upper portion. During this tinkering I came across the Fritz Handel Bushbuddy Ultra which as a complete stove was lighter than what I was trying to do with the sierra ti zip and a proven wood gassifier.

I absolutely love your hobo design. It is definately the absolute lightest there is. But the one big drawback for me personally is the physical dimensions. I can't come up with a way to nest the stove or disassemble it for storage.

With your permission Incognito, I would like to host a complete set of DIY instructions for your hobo stove on my website. As of right now, I have a link and pic that directs viewers back to your original thread.
http://www.ehko.info/m_myog.html

I have been calling it simply the Incognito Hobo Stove, until if, when you decide to name it

TeeDee
2006-09-17, 18:15
Turk - you wrote: "Fritz Handel Bushbuddy Ultra which as a complete stove was lighter than what I was trying to do with the sierra ti zip and a proven wood gassifier"

Where did you find that the Bushbuddy is "a proven wood gassifier".

The web site doesn't make that statement. It does state "Because of its unique design which uses a double wall around the firebox to preheat secondary combustion air, you will find that you can burn wood as cleanly as a candle." But preheating secondary combustion air does not make it a wood gasifier stove. Also, top down burning done properly burns very cleanly anyway.

From what I have been able to learn about wood gasifier stoves, I have serious doubts about that statement. Garlington also claims that his homemade stove is a wood gasifier, which I also seriously doubt.

Both stoves use top down burning methods, but top down burning does not a wood gasifier make in and of itself. Nor does preheating secondary compbustion air which the Garlington also does.

I can use top down burning in any wood burning stove (that has room to build the wood pile and light on the top), but they are most certainly not wood gasifier stoves. I can use top down burning without a stove and that is most certainly not burning wood gas.

I use top down burning in all my backpacking and camp stoves - it is almost smoke free.

I am not denigrating the Bushbuddy stove or its maker. I think it is a great product with excellant quality. I just do not think it deserves the title of a wood gasifier stove. Some people even mistakenly think the Zip stove is a wood gasifier, which it most definitely is not.

Turk
2006-09-17, 19:23
Teedee perhaps the mistake is not upon the manufacturer but the users. I am quite familiar with the controversy you speak of with the Garlington. I have read many contradicting comments as to what qualifies as a gassifier stove. My specific reference as it applies to the fritz handel comes from a discussion forum during ryan jordans arctic 1000 planning. The stove was discribed as burning "much like wood gassifier stoves of heavier design.." Fritz has not used this term in our several mail exchanges, but as you say, this term 'gassifier' has been tagged to several other wood burning stoves by users. This is where I get a bit confused on it all.

If you could enlighten me as to exactly what critera defines a 'true gassifier'
stove. Perhaps I can better qualify the fritz handel as either being one, or not, based on what I have seen of its performance.
Look forward to a definitive answer :listen:

incognito
2006-09-17, 22:34
With your permission Incognito, I would like to host a complete set of DIY instructions for your hobo stove on my website. As of right now, I have a link and pic that directs viewers back to your original thread.
http://www.ehko.info/m_myog.html

I have been calling it simply the Incognito Hobo Stove, until if, when you decide to name it

Turk, you have my permission.

You have my permission also to name it as you see fit :biggrin:

(but don't name it "hoboelite" :biggrin:)

TeeDee
2006-09-18, 12:51
TIf you could enlighten me as to exactly what critera defines a 'true gassifier' stove. Perhaps I can better qualify the fritz handel as either being one, or not, based on what I have seen of its performance. Look forward to a definitive answer :listen:

In reviewing the literature, I couldn't find a concise definition of a "wood gasifier", so I emailed the people working on research in the area and who work for/with the guy that invented the downdraft gasifier. I asked specifically about the Bushbuddy and refered to the Bushbuddy site.

I stand partially corrected. Here is the reply:
============================
Looking over the site, it appears to be a passive partial gasifier
design.

With passive draft, you can't get a full gasification design, because
the air won't move the way you need it to.

The resulting stove has some advantages and disadvantages to mine (in no
particular order)

1) Its a little expensive.

2) Its pretty light.

3) It will burn less efficiently and generally have more smoke than
mine.

4) Due to the incomplete gasification, it will tend to produce tar and
have that tar deposit on the bottom of your pan. You'll notice that
their pictures have a black pot on them. This hides the tar being
deposited on the pan.

5) It will use a little more fuel to produce the same heat. Though the
total will still be a lot less than a camp fire.

Jim
=================================
So, as I wrote, I stand (sit?) corrected. The people that I consider the experts and have been working on wood gasifiers for many years have answered the question much better than I could have.

Lanthar
2006-09-18, 16:16
Teedee,

Which stove did Jim create? Some of the terms he uses sound really familiar, and I can't find the link I once had...

TeeDee
2006-09-18, 19:26
Teedee,

Which stove did Jim create? Some of the terms he uses sound really familiar, and I can't find the link I once had...

Actually Jim didn't create the stove, Tom Reed did. He invented the inverted downdraft woodgas stove and the design that all others are trying to use. The inverted downdraft stoves he created used forced and natural convection. Unfortunately, he found that the natural convection doesn't scale down. When you get down to a certain size, the natural convection doesn't supply enough oxygen to get good gassification.

Lanthar - there are two web sites actually. This one:

http://www.woodgas.com/

is their research site where it details what they doing. You can also purchase their woodgas camp stove from that site.

This one:

http://www.spenton.net/index.html

is devoted to selling the woodgas camp stove. The stove is 2 lbs (I haven't weighed mine, just took their word on the weight, but it is a light 2 lbs - just put on the bathroom scales and it came in at about 1.5 lbs, anyway less than 2 lbs - they list shipping weight, not carry weight). I would strongly suggest getting the solar recharger and using it (Jim said it is 5.7 oz). Then get some of the latest NiMH rechargable AA batteries, the ones that have a capacity of 2500 mAh to 2700 mAh. At about 0.9 oz each, keeping two in the charger and charging and 2 for spares works good. At 2700 mAh, those AA NiMH batteries should operate the stove fan for about 15 to 20 hours (no sun) - the fan on high uses 110 mA at 3 v. More at reduced performance. The only problem I had with the stove was the very short leads on the battery holder and solar charger. Either is plugged directly into the stove and you have to unplug and replug to go from full performance to the simmer mode, I didn't like the logistics of that. I got a small plastic box, a DC power panel jack, a DC power plug, a toggle switch and 1 10 ohm resistor from Radio Shack and using some 22 gauge wire, made a remote switch that the recharger or battery holder gets plugged into. I can easily switch modes and have a longer lead which removes everything further from the stove and further from possible accident. When I informed Jim of my endeavers, he said that I should have told him and he would have made it and supplied witrh the stove. He is very responsive to email and very knowledgable.

From my experience, I have found that once you are really burning the gas (what Tom Reed terms "wood gas"), which doesn't take very long (until the fire has really caught and you turn the fan on), the flame turns almost totally an intense blue and almost or totally disappears in daylight. It is then like using a pressurized alcohol stove. You are burning gas in both cases. Once the wood (or whatever) is fully burned, it is turned into charcoal and then that continues burning until consumed. With the stove fully charged with wood, the wood is turned into charcoal in about 20 to 30 minutes depending on how you stuffed the wood in. The charcoal can then last another 20 to 30 minutes. That is with the fan on Hi all the time.

The top part of the outside of the stove gets too hot to touch comfortably, but the bottom can still be handled.

Lanthar
2006-09-18, 20:34
Teedee,

Yup, that's the one I was envisioning while I was reading Jim's comments.

I hadn't realized they were selling a solar charger as well... nice...

One more thing to add to my gear wishlist.

Thanks!

incognito
2006-09-18, 23:16
The true gassifiers were built during the war as stated in the history of them on their site. This is a photo of one attached to the guys truck. It's a reproduction.. Raw wood is placed inside the large tank and then heated from the outside using burning wood(original) or propane for the reproduction model. The gasses released from the wood were channled to the vehicles combustion engine. Vehicles had very little horsepower. Mother Earth magazine had an article about it many years ago.

These little stoves are just fancy zip stoves and nothing more.

Fuel---Heat---oxygen in the right proportions make fire. The fuel is heated to a point of gassification and then with enough heat will ignite. Right?
It's basic.


http://www.woodgas.com/images/Mel_Strand_Truck_and_TBRSM.jpg

Take-a-knee
2006-09-18, 23:30
This sort of stove knowledge may seem common to you guys but I'll bet it isn't, even among hiker/camper types. I've read a lot a hiking stuff and I've heard of a zip stove but none of this stuff. I've often thought that a small alcohol stove might be useful as an everyday cooker for the really poor people in the world, ie Haiti, sub- saharan Africa and the like. Only thing is the fuel isn't cheap. These wood gassifiers would be a godsend for them. In Haiti they have deforested the country to make charcoal to cook with, and a lot of cooking is still done on an open flame. Only the very wealthy have propane for their stoves and refrigerators. I think WHO was doing something with some sort of solar oven but I can't help but think this technology would be a blessing to millions, if they only knew about it.

TeeDee
2006-09-19, 18:33
"These little stoves are just fancy zip stoves and nothing more."

Wrong - they are far more sophisticated than the zip stoves. Better performance also.

"Fuel---Heat---oxygen in the right proportions make fire. The fuel is heated to a point of gassification and then with enough heat will ignite. Right?
It's basic."

But then as they say "the devil is in the details". Fuel/heat/oxygen - have to get the proportion of each pretty much right or you have a simple campfire or nothing at all. You also have to have the oxygen delivered to the right places to generate the gas and then to burn the gas. Designing the stove to get those proportions right and the oxygen delivered at the right places isn't simple. If it was all biomass stoves would be gassifiers. Once the stove is designed right and the design made available, then building to the design can be easy - maybe. Depends on the design and the size of the stove. Designing and building a MW wood gassifier for good sized city can be challenging. Designing and building a small, single person gassifier can be equally challenging. If it was simple then the zip stoves would have been built as gassifiers, but they are not.

Maybe Tom Reed and his research institute and some of the others developing gassifier stoves could use incognito's expertise since it is so "basic" for you, you could advance their research and efforts by years. Don't expect to get paid much though, most of them are operating on the proverbial shoestring and a prayer.

KLeth
2006-09-20, 01:54
These wood gassifiers would be a godsend for them. In Haiti they have deforested the country to make charcoal to cook with, and a lot of cooking is still done on an open flame.
You are quite right Take-a-knee and there is a multitude of projects centered around this. All the projects have but one aim: Help the poor cook, using sustainable energy e.g. dung, vegetable oil but also on using gasifiers to burn coconut pellets and wood since gasification is much more efficient than just the open flame. Another benefit is the health issue since a cleaner combustion will prevent a lot of respiratory health problems due to the reduction in sooth and smoke in the homes.
Unfortunately I have not heard of any project really gaining momentum, maybe they have too many academics discussing :argh:

A few links on the subject:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_heaters.html (They list a "Turk" burner :ahhhhh:).
http://cbll.net/articles/dev-world-gasification
http://www.jatropha.org/cooker/index.html
http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/stove/
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
https://home.comcast.net/~jtfri/StoveDec22-05/index.html
http://practicalaction.org/docs/energy/docs48/bp48_pp37-38.pdf#search=%22vegetable%20oil%20stove%22
http://www.bioenergylists.org/

incognito
2006-09-20, 19:56
Wrong - they are far more sophisticated than the zip stoves. Better performance also.

The one you have can not sustain itself like the Sierra can. The power goes out on yours and your dead in the water with billowing clouds of smoke all around you. Is that sophistication?

Shortly after receiving yours you had to make an alteration to the wiring, is that sophistication.

Tom Reed warns his customers not to turn of the power until the fuel has burned or else smokers. Is that being energy efficient/sophistication


Within one year i foresee the internal wire connections corroding to a point of failure. First time your pot boils over, the corrosion begins.


Maybe Tom Reed and his research institute and some of the others developing gassifier stoves could use incognito's expertise since it is so "basic" for you, you could advance their research and efforts by years. Don't expect to get paid much though, most of them are operating on the proverbial shoestring and a prayer.

I share my expertise here and on other forums for free


But then as they say "the devil is in the details". Fuel/heat/oxygen - have to get the proportion of each pretty much right or you have a simple campfire or nothing at all.

A simple campfire in the middle of a dry national forest can turn into a raging forest fire just by having the wind blow on it!!! The zip stoves just blow air on the fire.

Heat is what turns fuel into gas not air as you have stated.
You also have to have the oxygen delivered to the right places to generate the gas and then to burn the gas.

I assumed everybody here knew the "Basics" I've made an ass of myself. I opologize!!!!!

TeeDee
2006-09-21, 18:23
I share my expertise here and on other forums for free

Then you can share your expertise for free with the institutions that are desperately trying to provide wood burning or biomass burning solutions to the under-developed world. Your expertise could do far more to help those people to lead better lives, get free of illnesses due to the smoke from burning biomass and provide them with a means of sanitizing their water supply. And help them to utilize a free (or low cost) and renewable supply of energy. The energy could be used for cooking and providing a source of electrical energy.

Your expertise would be much better spent in such an endeaver than helping backpackers build homemade woodburning stoves.

I am sure that someone of your vast knowledge and expertise would be welcomed by any one of the institutions in this project. Especially since you are willing to do so for free.

I would be more than happy to provide you with the links to their web sites and even provide you with the names of individuals to contact. They are constantly looking for people with expertise and knowledge and who are willing to share that expertise and knowledge.

That is, of course, if you are willing to share your expertise and knowledge for the benefit of the people of this world who very desperately need it. I am very confident that the members of these forums need your knowledge, but again I am confident that most or all would probably be willing to forego it, if they knew it was being used for the benefit of others in far more desperate need.

I am sure that you could even do so on a part time basis.

I would even be willing to write a letter of recommendation sharing with them your knowledge in these matters. That you even know that what they are doing is years behind, that it was developed and utilized in WW II and that you can therefore, with your knowledge and expertise, bring their endeavers into the current century. That you can use your knowledge and expertise to eliminate the problems they are encountering and further their endeavers by many years.

Are you willing?

incognito
2006-09-21, 22:20
I believe Solar energy is the answer for the conditions that you refer to.

I'm willing to update myself on their current endeavors.
Give me a link to a site that has current info on the matters you list.

I only know the basics, just enough to be dangerous.

Millions and millions of dollars have been spent on research as you know. I do believe they have narrowed it down to SOLAR ENERGY as their answer.



Maybe Tom Reed and his research institute and some of the others developing gassifier stoves could use incognito's expertise since it is so "basic" for you, you could advance their research and efforts by years. Don't expect to get paid much though, most of them are operating on the proverbial shoestring and a prayer.

I did'nt feel you were sincere when you made the above remark!!!!!!!! I felt you were jerkin my chain. My remark about heat, air, and fuel was basic info, it was not about building/designing gassifiers.

Take-a-knee
2006-09-21, 23:51
TEEDEE, tommorrow is Friday, go to Blockbuster this evening and rent "Anger Management". It is funny and you might learn something.

There is no answer for a lot of the third world. Missionaries have gone to teach people how to grow vegetables via irrigated horticulture. They help them get started, the men won't hoe the crop 'cause it doesn't comport with their view of "manliness". Most third world women are worked to death already, I watched this crap for five months in Haiti in '95. Bill Clinton sent my SF ODA there on a caribean vacation. You try to explain to people not to shit behind their house, they don't understand germ theory, you may as well be ranting about the Heisenberg Uncertainly principal. You tell me what you can do with these people... I assure you, it ain't Incognito's fault.

dropkick
2006-09-22, 01:46
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"
Yah.... but what do you do when as soon as you turn your back, the man you taught to fish throws away his pole and goes looking for more free fish?

While I haven't experienced the Third World first hand I have many relatives who either are or have been missionaries, and Peace Corp workers, and I hear the same story from all of them. As soon as moved on to help others, the people they had dug wells for and taught to support themselves either abandoned everything and went looking for the aid trucks, or reverted to their old ways and let the fields dry out and blow away.

You can't help those who won't help themselves.

Iceman
2006-09-22, 10:39
Now look what you have all done! Now you got me thinking of political issues, sociology, equal opportunity b.s., border security, all sorts of earthy-geo-political-crap! :damnmate:


All I wanted to do was read about burning twigs in a can! :biggrin:

Take-a-knee
2006-09-22, 12:04
I'm sorry Iceman, maybe I just need to be tazed and hosed down with pepper spray to get my mind right. Many of us do have quite a capacity to rant, thankfully most of us are equally long-suffering.

TeeDee
2006-09-22, 18:39
Solar energy - a great source of energy - the sun constantly creates more and will for the forseeable future.

Unfortunately, conversion to a form that is useful is very inefficient.

Plants do this the best and thus burning biomass is about the best we have at this time for utilizing solar energy.

As far as conversion directly to electrical energy via solar cells, it is very inefficient at its best. Also, the manufacture of the solar cells leads to a lot of toxic waste products and requires more electrical energy from another source to manufacture. Years and lots of money have been spent trying to perfect solar cell efficiencies - haven't been very successful yet. The commercially available solar cells are only about 8% efficient. To get the maximum efficiency achieved to date (about 30% to 35%), you have to pay about 100 times the price in very, very limited quantities (enough for a research project only). You can find out more about solar cells from the following url:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell#Solar_cell_efficiency_factors

For links to web sites, please see KLeth's post above. He was very kind to provide them.

I aplogize to the members of this forum. I get the impression that you got the impression that I was angered by incognito's reply. For giving that impression, I apologize. I think that my mistake was in taking incognito seriously, when he wasn't serious. I wasn't angry, it is just that when I see the facts so badly twisted, I react. I should have realized that it was only in jest. mea culpa :adore:

Iceman
2006-09-22, 22:31
I'm sorry Iceman, maybe I just need to be tazed and hosed down with pepper spray to get my mind right. Many of us do have quite a capacity to rant, thankfully most of us are equally long-suffering.

Ya', your right. Come to think if it, I do enjoy a good verbal fisticuff now and then... :boxing:

Oleoresin Capsicum spray is bad. Tazers are OK with me.

Turk
2006-09-23, 14:50
We Canadians like to yammer on endlessly also in circular fashion. Few things ruin a good conversation so much as adding a second voice.:bandit: :biggrin:

Not to say I am not envious... I WISH guns were the answer for everything.
Clearly our neighbours have proven that no problem is so big nor complex that it cannot be solved with 'bigger guns', or more of them. ....

It has to be alot more fun than verbal fencing:fight: with each other. .. and of course, it may even improve communication skills. Who is going to interrupt your dissertation when you are waving a Desert Eagle in their face ? :biggrin:

maybe I'll move south..... :biggrin:

.... hey... woh ... idea....
What better way to steal back American idol viewers and turn their heads to politics.... UN meetings should be a reality TV show, ... and every week, foreign policy is debated 'elimination style' in a "Mad Max -Beyond Thunder Dome" setting. Two man enter ... One man leave!! World Leaders go head to head in the cage to win your affection, avoid elimination and voice their political opinions in classic evil villan style as they stand over their defeated opponents. Wooow, You'd have a combination of American Idol, WWF wrestling, politics, game show, gambling, Olympic level competiton, and sports-like commentary.

incognito
2006-09-24, 19:36
This hobo stove has gone its course Turk

Turk have you read the thread about the Hobo Elite stove?

You hav'nt made a post to it yet, thats why I ask.

It collapses down to fit inside a 2 x 6 inch cake pan, go check it out!!!!!!!!

Oops56, where is your idea on the grease pot hobo stove. I know you've got somthing in the works. Hurry up will ya!!!!!!!!:albertein

Turk
2006-09-25, 00:18
This hobo stove has gone its course Turk

Turk have you read the thread about the Hobo Elite stove?

You hav'nt made a post to it yet, thats why I ask.



Yes, very sorry. Have been muchos busy with last minute trip planning
and the possibility of losing my job this week. That stove looks pretty
awesome. I definately plan to make one. have been watching the
thread closely.

Woods Walker
2006-11-18, 22:42
Here is my homemade HOBO stove.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/superhobosmall.jpg

The top and bottom come off so I can adjust the body size.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/short.jpg

Here are the three parts
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/megahobo2.jpg

A bit heavy for long hikes. I tend to go with the Zip stove.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/zipstove.jpg

Or trailstove for longer trips.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/stovet1.jpg

I like a wood fire and don't count every OZ so the HOBO works great for me.

Hollowdweller
2006-11-19, 12:44
That's really cool. I have a zip and I like it. I have thought about a hobo because of no batteries. I like the idea of using a stove that doesn't require me to burn oil or throw anything away(but ashes)

These alcohol stoves a lot of the folks here really intrigue me because most of the alcohol is made from wood as I understand so (I assume) domestically produced.

Woods Walker
2006-11-20, 01:25
Here is a homemade fan system I made for the trailstove. This way I can have a fan type stove or normal HOBO.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/hobo3.jpg

Runs off a 9v or 12v pack. Uses a computer fan and runs a very very long time.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/hobo10.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/hobo1.jpg

JAK
2006-11-20, 11:10
Yowza. I have found they work very well without the 9v fan.

I need to get the camera working, but I made a mini-rocket stove out of a toilet paper roll wrapped in muffler tape. The idea of the toilet paper roll is to allow some draft to be generated and combustion to be completed in an insulated chimney before it flows around the pot of water and inside the wind screen. I got a tealight filled with 1/4 oz of canola oil and a large cotton wick on a brass screw to burn very well without smoking. Its 2-3" flame smoked with the combustion chamber removed but not when it was inside the combustion chamber. It still took a while for the oil to get real hot and then burn itself out but with some more fiddling I think it could be sized and matched to an 250ml or 500ml or larger pot of water. The question is whether the improves BTU/oz of oil vs alcohol is worth the added weight and volume of the combustion chamber. The combustion chamber is not all that heavy. I suppose if it it had a lid it could double as a toilet paper warmer. Be aware of the risks of spontanious combustion. ;)

Lanthar
2006-11-20, 13:51
Yowza. I have found they work very well without the 9v fan.

I need to get the camera working, but I made a mini-rocket stove out of a toilet paper roll wrapped in muffler tape. The idea of the toilet paper roll is to allow some draft to be generated and combustion to be completed in an insulated chimney before it flows around the pot of water and inside the wind screen. I got a tealight filled with 1/4 oz of canola oil and a large cotton wick on a brass screw to burn very well without smoking. Its 2-3" flame smoked with the combustion chamber removed but not when it was inside the combustion chamber. It still took a while for the oil to get real hot and then burn itself out but with some more fiddling I think it could be sized and matched to an 250ml or 500ml or larger pot of water. The question is whether the improves BTU/oz of oil vs alcohol is worth the added weight and volume of the combustion chamber. The combustion chamber is not all that heavy. I suppose if it it had a lid it could double as a toilet paper warmer. Be aware of the risks of spontanious combustion. ;)

Yes! Based on that description you definitely need to get a camera out...

SGT Rock
2006-11-20, 14:29
you guys should check out that stove I am testing. VERY light and efficient.

n2o2diver
2006-11-20, 19:24
Here is a homemade fan system I made for the trailstove. This way I can have a fan type stove or normal HOBO.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/hobo3.jpg

Runs off a 9v or 12v pack. Uses a computer fan and runs a very very long time.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/hobo10.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/hobo1.jpg

Is this stove pictured the same as this one? http://www.trailstove.com/

Turk
2006-11-20, 20:29
Definately not a fan of the stratus Trailstove.
Heavy, big, and a pain in the butt.
Doesnt nest well with anything I use, ... but it
does hold a heck of alot of wood.

Still a huge fan of the Fritz Handel UL bushbuddy
http://www.ehko.info/HQ_bb_perf_2.JPG
http://www.ehko.info/HQ_bb_perf_3.JPG
initial review here:
http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1879
I just got the latest model from Fritz. No word yet
if this latest will be THE production model.
Drastic airflow improvements... but despite my
pleading, the new model got a bit heavier from
4.7oz previous proto, to 5.0oz due to firebox
design improvements.

As a no frills hobo, I love this baby.
But I am definately watching Rocks new anodized
7oz forge stove closely!

Woods Walker
2006-11-20, 23:25
n2.

Yes it is. I like the trail stove for some of same reasons that Turk dislikes it. The stove is a bit larger than other micro hobos so it holds allot of wood. On the down side it eats up pack room. :( Often I use the trailstove as a woods friendly campfire as it does not scare the land. I used it at this camp site even with a fire ring as it burns so little wood.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/smallt.jpg

As correctly stated the stove is about 15 oz. Maybe a bit much for a true UL camper. But the same can be said for a ZIP stove. I like my full size ZIP stove too. Any issues with pot supports is overcome by making an X support for the top. Increases the boil time dramatically as the airflow will vent upwards and allows for easy stove feeding during cooking though the large hole port. I don't know why the stove maker does not offer an X support. Oh well. Maybe I will take a Photo of my X support if anyone is interested. I also like the looks of that bushbuddy. It seems a bit like the larger Trekstove (spelling). SGT Rocks fan powered stove looked cool too.

I check the web and the Bushbuddy is from the same guy that made the "TREKSTOV".

http://bushbuddy.ca/index.html

Looks like it weighs 10 3/8 oz. Not bad.. I like it. :)

Turk
2006-11-21, 00:04
n2.


I check the web and the Bushbuddy is from the same guy that made the "TREKSTOV".

http://bushbuddy.ca/index.html

Looks like it weighs 10 3/8 oz. Not bad.. I like it. :)

Yes Fritz Handel is the maker of both the Trekstov - which is
discontinued. As well as the bushbuddy. Not yet on his webpage is
the UL Bushbuddy. First prototype was made for BPL editor Ryan Jordan
for the Arctic1000 expedition. I am also involved in prototype testing
the UL stove before production. UL bushbuddy in production will
weigh in around the 5.0oz mark. Regular 10oz bushbuddy will
still be available for the less weight conscious.

Woods Walker
2006-11-21, 00:50
Turk.

Do you know what is the differance between the UL and standard? I am what you would call less weight conscious. For me 10 oz is just fantastic however if all things are = I would take the lighter stove. The stove does seem real nice.

Lanthar
2006-11-21, 15:00
Turk,

You're the one with the custom-sized bushbuddy right? When you do a review, will you briefly touch on the differences between yours and the production model?

Turk
2006-11-21, 20:20
Will post UL bushbuddy replies in the proper thread. Sorry for
topic jumping. Should have kept them over on the appropriate
thread to begin with.

gmagnes
2006-11-30, 14:38
Incognito
For some reason I'm unable to see photos in the forum posts. I'm going to contact Sgt. Rock. In the meantime, would you be willing to email me photos and instructions (if you have them) for your hobo stove? Send to:
gmagnes <at> nycap <dot> rr <dot> com

thanks alot
Gerry Magnes

SGT Rock
2006-11-30, 15:13
I'm not sure why only a couple of viewers cannot see photos in the forum.

What browwser are y'all using?

gmagnes
2006-11-30, 15:31
I'm using Explorer Version 6 in the office. I can try from home where I have Firefox and I think a more recent version of Explorer if you think that might help.
Gerry Magnes

Lanthar
2006-11-30, 16:51
I'm using Explorer Version 6 in the office. I can try from home where I have Firefox and I think a more recent version of Explorer if you think that might help.
Gerry Magnes

:argh: Must... resist... snide... comments... about... M$... and... corporate... America... :afraid:

At least you have the proper browser loaded on your home computer :biggrin:

However, it may simply be company firewall stuff... are you having problems at home as well?

gmagnes
2006-11-30, 20:22
Works fine with Firefox. Stove looks neat!
Gerry

incognito
2006-11-30, 21:36
It was only a matter of time before I figured it out for you!!!!!!!!:albertein

I'm working on a stainless steel version of a hobo using .003 stainless. Always got a few in the works.

Working on some production parts for the "StarLyte" Keepin busy

gmagnes
2006-12-01, 15:20
I recently picked up a Sierra Zip Stove, and have used it on a couple of paddling trips, but I feel it's too heavy for light weight back packing. Nevertheless, I'm really hooked on the idea of using a wood buring stove for my basic cooking needs. I'm gonna try to build Incognito's stove and see how it works for me. A few questions though for folks who've used these type stoves:
1--Wet conditions--What do you do after a day of rain and most everything's wet? How tough is it to fire up the small wood scraps that are normally used for these stoves? Do they generally work ok once you get a flame going, or is it a constant struggle to keep them going and generate a hot enough fire, rather than sizzle and smoke.
2--Wind Power--The Sierra Zip works significantly better (at least to me) with the fan operating. Some of the other homemades are designed with small fans and the Stratus has a clever little blow tube. How about Incognito's stove and the Bushbuddy? These stoves don't seem to rely on any additional breeze? Is that because of a different design, or would a blow tube or fan increase their oomph?
3--Double Wall Construction--Many seem to incorporate double wall construction, while the Stratus and the Littlebug for example, and a few other home made types don't. Anyone want to comment on the importance of double wall. From the little my non technical mind can extract from the various discussions I've read, it appears the double wall enables the stove to be using already warmed air. Is that correct? Would it also help if the inner chamber were insulated, with pipe foam covering or something else similar?
4--[B]Sgt. Rock's Wood Stove[B]--Sarge, there's some reference to a new, light weight wood stove that you're working on? Are there pictures or plans anywhere that I could look at. Always interested to see what comes out of your creative lab.

Thanks for whatever wisdom you folks care to offer.

Gerry Magnes
Schenectady, NY

incognito
2006-12-03, 11:30
Wet conditions--What do you do after a day of rain and most everything's wet? How tough is it to fire up the small

Look up!!!! Look up!!!! Look up!!!!!!!!
Look for dead branches without bark on them. They are found laying among the branches of low growing shrubs, low hanging branches. After a rain they dry off quickly.


Wind Power--The Sierra Zip works significantly better (at least to me) with the fan operating. Some of the other homemades are designed with small fans and

Man has a way of making things get complicated, shows their abilities. :albertein We not only want to boil water, we want to forge something or melt iron to make tent stakes and knives and pooper scoopers:adore: hail to those that make life interesting, read it once and throw it away!!!!! store a piece of it in your grey matter.

"Keep It Super Simple"

SGT Rock
2006-12-04, 04:36
You know I was thinking about hobo stoves just yesterday while I was sitting around waiting for the COL to get out of a meeting. I was trying to think of how to keep the hobo stove light and still have it work while being multifunctional so you could use alcohol in a pinch and all. My knock down stove was a shot at doing that. I've been thinking about making something like that again except with two stages of pot support so you could have one low to the alcohol stove and one high for the wood (air flow and feeding the fire) and I have also been thinking of replacing the bottom plate with a wire grate. So if you use fire it has air flow from the bottom, and if you go alcohol you can put a sheet of aluminum foil over the mesh to control air flow and reflect some of the heat up. I even thought about getting rid of the fire door.

Sounds like I good idea. I figure I can make the whole stove with all the parts for about 3.5 ounces or so...

Then I started thinking of how to get it lighter. What is really needed in a hobo stove?

1. Fire - to heat the pot.

2. Stability - A way to hold the pot over the stove.

3. Sides - A way to reflect the heat at the stove for better efficiency.

So I tried to think of the lightest way to get all three - use rocks - just pick 'em up around camp and make a three stone tripod for a pot holder and then a fire ring. Use just a handful or two of sticks at 4" length and no wider than a pencil. You can boil water that way - and nothing to carry.

But the disadvantage is you can't always find rocks you need...

So what do I have that I could already use? Tent stakes? Well usually when I am in camp they are already doing their job of holding the sides out on my tarp - and if I only have two that is no good, you need at least three. Now I also use aluminum, so they may not take a lot of use well - maybe I should go Ti. Three Ti tent stakes weigh in at about 1.5 ounces.

Next you need to create sides. A windscreen that is light to keep the heat around the pot is something I already make - so maybe I can make that work for a small wood fire. The weight would only be about 1/2 ounce. Maybe aluminum windscreen will work at low temps.

Then I realized if that works, maybe the Tipod would also work. Instead of using three Ti tent stakes, maybe I could just set the tipod up on the ground or a flat rock and get a small stick fire going in the center. Then use the windscreen with an opening at one end for a windscreen around the wood fire.

The only problem I have right now is no Ion Stove to play with this idea. But I think it could work. Anyone back there thought of trying something like this with their Ion?

Iceman
2006-12-04, 10:42
I have a hobo can, which stores around my titanium kettle. I have placed holes down both sides so that I can support the kettle at any level within the hobo can. The can has a bottom, with air thru the side. Turn the can to the wind for more airflow. I placed multiple holes down the sides so that I may lower my kettle to the fuel, irregardless of fuel type....IE, my alcohol burner, esbit, or wood. The can serves as an integral wind guard/stove support all in one. I support the kettle at any height within the hobo can with one alum tent stake. In wood mode, kettle is way up high, alcohol and esbit near the bottom, depending on which alcohol burner I brought... total versatility. As with all my gear, not the lightest, I am sure you could shave it a lot...

Forgot to mention, the hobo can has a wood loading slot/void down the side about 1/2 of the way, so if in wood mode, I can load wood, and in alcohol/esbit mode, it makes way for my kettle handle...

I have about 1/4" of gap around my kettle, in wood mode, gets a bit sooty.

The only problem with the design is that it is difficult to lower your fueled alcohol stove down the throat without spilling. So, I altered the hobo/pot support/wind guard from a can, to a sleve. Now, the bottom of the can is collared and fits inside the hobo sleve above. Simply lay the can floor down, set your alcohol or esbit or whatever...fire it up, and quickly set the sleve upon the floor plate/cup... In wood mode, assemble the sleve/floor into a can, and fire it up with wood.

One problem I have had is when trying to work the unit in snow. As with any snow stoves, need to support the stove as it melts in... I now lay out a few branches under the stove, and top the brances with a foil pad I have made for support...

Lanthar
2006-12-04, 13:20
Rock,

The tent stake / windscreen idea is very similar to Risk's WindScreen Forge (http://www.imrisk.com/forge/wsforge.htm).

On the other idea, I was wondering, are you thinking about making the legs of the ion bigger / longer or just (or maybe making the base thicker that would keep the heigt right when using acl), kind of, building the fire 'around / under' the pot? Almost like when you put a cookpot on coals except raising it up just slightly (the higher the better, too some extent, as it helps with feeding wood and the fire breathing)?

One way or the other you might want to bend the legs a bit for some added stability.

I've included a sketch of my idea based on your new way of making the tipod go under the ion rather than over (as it used to be) as I'm not sure any of what I just said makes sense...

SGT Rock
2006-12-04, 14:56
Rock,

The tent stake / windscreen idea is very similar to Risk's WindScreen Forge (http://www.imrisk.com/forge/wsforge.htm).

Something sort of like that, but without a fan. I made a coke can windscreen and stand for my tea-light Ion stove (courtesy of Seeker) and have been using that some for various things like frying spam and making tea. Tonight I tried it as a stand (similar to how I plan to use the Tipod) with my coke can windscreen on a test boild of a pint of water. It took some fanning and a little work, but I boiled a pint of water in about 12 minutes with a hadfull of twigs.



On the other idea, I was wondering, are you thinking about making the legs of the ion bigger / longer or just (or maybe making the base thicker that would keep the heigt right when using acl), kind of, building the fire 'around / under' the pot? Almost like when you put a cookpot on coals except raising it up just slightly (the higher the better, too some extent, as it helps with feeding wood and the fire breathing)?

I hadn't thought about making the Tipod bigger. That is something to consider.



One way or the other you might want to bend the legs a bit for some added stability.

I've included a sketch of my idea based on your new way of making the tipod go under the ion rather than over (as it used to be) as I'm not sure any of what I just said makes sense...

Well I have included some of my pics from tonight's little test and one of the newer Tipod that is already going out with the Ion stoves.

TeeDee
2006-12-04, 17:28
Rock your idea of using what is available on the ground is an idea that I have been pursuing for a while now.

In particular I am now trying to get the materials together to make a grill. Then using rocks to surround a small fire. The grill uses two lengths, 12", of stainless steel tubing, say 1/2" diameter. For the cross pieces I am going to use the TI wire from Practical Backpacking, 10 pieces, 24" x 1/16". Cut the TI rods in half and use maybe 8 or 10 of the 12" lengths. Drill 8 or 10 holes in line down each stainless tube. To setup, thread the TI rods through the 2 stainless tubes so that an inch or more sticks out the other side of each tube. Place the grill on the rocks an you can grill or cook with pots. The TI rods will fit in the Stainless tubes, band the tubes together with cord or velcro. will have to come up with a method of capping the tubes so the TI rods don't fall out when traveling. Haven't gotten the weight of 1/2" by 12" stainless tubing yet. The guy on Practial backpacking used AL and his whole grill came in at about 1 oz. I could also use AL, but trust stainless more. Will have to decide for sure when I get the weight of the stainless tubing.

Something like the Grilliput grill.

Just need to source the tubing at this point.

oops56
2006-12-04, 18:51
A vacuum cleaner hose extension maybe.

Skidsteer
2006-12-04, 21:25
...The only problem I have right now is no Ion Stove to play with this idea. But I think it could work. Anyone back there thought of trying something like this with their Ion?

I take an Ion and a bit of Everclear(dual use) with me when I carry my Zipstove. It works pretty well but my Zip is modified( well, it was until I put it back to stock to do a test of the Torch-Lite) to 'whirlpool' the forced air much like the Torch-lite.

I plan to try one with the Torch-Lite, after doing the tests against the Zip.

I've also used rocks for a potstand. It worked better for me if I dug a shallow( 2-3") hole for the wood. I also used rocks to prop up one of those cheapie convenience store fans in front of the fire. It boiled water. :top:

oops56
2006-12-28, 00:54
Eco Fan this fan sits on the stove now way cant you cut out the heat sink that makes the fan work its about 2 in sq by 1/4 thick put on a hobo stove like a Serra use a battery to get fire hot then switch over to Eco heat sink plus still use a computer fan not Eco fan just the heat sink for power the heat sink cant go in the fire but on side of stove or bottom
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_ecofan.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/ecofan.jpg)

JAK
2006-12-28, 12:52
It would be an interesting idea for a battery charger also. I think they run the same price as solar cells, at $5/watt. They are only about 5% efficient, if you designed a stove around them, but even 1% would be more than adequate for running a fan and charging batteries, if you were into that sort of thing.

Here are some of these devices:
http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=peltier.module