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dropkick
2006-09-01, 01:03
Just received my Backpacker magazine in the mail. Haven't read it yet, but was flipping through it on my way back to the house and read a short article on an electric bear fence put out by UDAP (same people who put out spray).

It weighs 3.7 lbs with batteries and supposedly works wonderfully.
Packs down into a 5" X 20" bag.
However it costs $300.00
Too rich for my blood.

When I was doing a search for a link for this post I found another fence that looks about the same for $150.00
Still too rich for my blood.

They'll have to get lighter, pack smaller, and cost a lot less before I'll ever buy one, but it might be just the ticket for someone else who worries more about bear.


links:
UDAP fence (www.udap.com/bearshock.htm)
The less expensive fence (www.waterstrider.com/bear-repellent-portable-electric-fence.htm)

Iceman
2006-09-01, 02:53
Old post of a portable electric fence (http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?p=10713#post10713)

Beat you to it... :biggrin:

Pretty cool stuff to play with...

KLeth
2006-09-01, 03:04
If everybody starts using electric fences the bears probably learns how to disable/destroy them or just take the jolt.
I have seen remarkable adaptional behavior in many animals, even guinea pigs and rabbits who notoriously are not the cleaverest amongst critters.
Also I wouldn't fully rely on anything running on batteries. On Greenland this summer a group of tourists almost missed their emergency extraction due to problems with their GPS.

Then again bears are not much of a problem in Scandinavia . . . . :lollypop:

Iceman
2006-09-01, 10:16
the bears probably learns how to disable/destroy them or just take the jolt.

Good point,but, a few years back I volunteered to get "tazed" :elefant: as did four other officers during some training. This even after we had been shocked the year before. We remembered, but did not learn... A tazer ride is no fun. 5 seconds of hell. :biggrin:

Turk
2006-09-01, 19:16
Ya, I am dying to see the field testing footage of this fence in action.
It just seems like it would be completely useless. I want to see a
predatory bear outside this fence with some people inside wearing that
mark V bear suit crazy guy (insert real name here) made, taunting and teasing
the bear into an enraged charge. Then see how that fence performs.

Secondly I have to see the out-takes reel of people sauntering out into the
night, urinating on the fence and frying themselves like bacon.

ya.... maybe I am wrong .... but the whole thing smacks of a deranged
pavlov experiment, with the people as the bait.

dropkick
2006-09-02, 06:56
Good point,but, a few years back I volunteered to get "tazed" :elefant: as did four other officers during some training. This even after we had been shocked the year before. We remembered, but did not learn... A tazer ride is no fun. 5 seconds of hell. :biggrin:
I've had 2 people offer to give me stun guns. I turned them both down, because I know that sooner or later I'd be trying it on myself.

dropkick
2006-09-02, 06:59
Secondly I have to see the out-takes reel of people sauntering out into the
night, urinating on the fence and frying themselves like bacon.

The really scary part is if they get someone like Iceman and he keeps getting back up and peeing on the fence again.

Iceman
2006-09-05, 01:22
Actually, sort of like peeing into the wind on the bow of a boat, a bad idea.....but it can be done; peeing up, while still on your back.... :shot:

Lanthar
2006-09-05, 12:08
The really scary part is if they get someone like Iceman and he keeps getting back up and peeing on the fence again.

I actually have a friend who did this on a dare, perfectly sober. Then did it again because he was dared to 'do it again'.

Take-a-knee
2006-09-05, 18:29
Lanthar you have at least one friend that is not nearly as smart as you are.

bird dog
2006-09-05, 19:08
I carry a tazer at work and have used it NUMEROUS times. IT WORKS. On there old web site they had a video of a bull being tazed. I wonder if one of the larger models (like the one used on the bull) would be effective on a bear? I know the model I carry would not be (only 50,000 volts). Maybe one of you in Grizzly country could better answer that than me in Black bear country. BD

Turk
2006-09-05, 21:39
It is certainly an interesting idea bird dog. But okay even say you had a
very powerful tazer that could take a griz down, I am wondering how you would implement it? I can't see surving in hand-to-hand range. Some kind of a button switch on the end of a trekking pole maybe? Something to ponder on.

bird dog
2006-09-05, 21:47
I think the effective range is somewhere in the 27 foot range for the one I carry. It works while on the move (I got a guy running from me while I was chasing him), but as I understand it (from an article in this months Backpacker about the bear attack) they move quickly. However, in my line of work, I am told that one must be at least 25-30 feet away from someone armed with a knife as a safe distance. Studies show that they could close the distance and stab you from that distance before even the fastest officer can draw their weapon and fire a single shot. So I am sure a bear could close much faster.

Hmmmmmm....Turk, we may have a lucrative business opportunity in the works!!!!

BD

Take-a-knee
2006-09-05, 22:50
YOU guys can tote a taser into the bear woods, I'll stick with a slicked up 4" S&W 629 with some hot loads, thank you. Also, maybe a ghost ring sighted 35 Whelen bolt gun. I've sat on a ridge in Mckinley park in AK and watched a grizzly excavate a small root cellar with his ample sized claws after a marmot. I later walked to that site after the bear was out of that drain, I realized it would have taken me hours to dig that much with tools and that griz did it in a minute or so. Most bears don't ambush like a cougar, they don't see humans as prey, they are too intelligent for that, they see humans as rivals, and bluster accordingly. The "21 foot rule" usually doesn't apply to human/bear encounters. Part of the reason a thug can cover 21ft and stab a cop is the holsters they are required to use due to the nature of their jobs these days. A lot of cops are shot with their own gun, so "anti-grab" holsters are the norm. This impeeds and slows the draw a great deal. My draw and shoot time with a Glock17 from a Kydex belt holster is about 1.3 sec, and that is slow. With a retention holster I'm sure I'd be much slower, at least 0.5 sec slower, a man can cover a lot of ground in half-a-second when he's already moving fast.

Turk
2006-09-05, 23:08
I don't want to get way off tangent here, but you military folks here sure know alot about guns. Please forgive my complete ignorance on the subject, and my lack of proper terminology. But all this talk of wild bill gun slinging and tazers and what have you had me thinking about this simple question...

In some parts, carrying those lightweight orange plastic flare guns, is a common safety practice. As I am not well versed in firearms of any type, I was wondering: - if in an emergency situation; Self defense against man, animal whatever... could you shoot a flare gun effectively? Would it go straight? what kind of range would it be useful to? What kind of damage would it do? would that kill a person, an animal? I did a quick little search to find any kind of data like muzzle velocity.. but i don't really know how to intrepret it in terms of what that means for range/accuracy/damage

Anyone that might know.. would be interested to hear your opinion. One of those 'you just never know' scenarios.
This link here has tonnes of the different flare gun specs, but it is all gibberish to me perhaps someone could summarize what it might mean in laymans terms:
http://www.noedelscientific.com/user/Flaregun1.pdf#search=%2210%20gauge%20flare%20gun%2 2

Iceman
2006-09-05, 23:24
Turk, it is all about velocity. My potato cannon launches potatoes over 1000feet (not feet per second) and will punch a crisp clean hole thru 3/4" plywood. Add weight to velocity and you have a killing device. The faster the round, the less it must weight...sort of. A flare gun would certainly upset a bear, maybe cause a little fire in his brushy hair, but will not kill a bear. Your flare gun is basically a bottle rocket without the stick, not real deadly. Aim it at a human, and he may back off, so self defense....maybe. A bear ain't going to know the diff'.

On the other hand, if that was all I had, I would touch it off early in an attempt to cause a diversion of sorts, give me time to pray...... :vroam: and then run!

KLeth
2006-09-06, 01:37
A few of the nordic weather stations in the arctic, sometimes have problems with polarbears. One of the means to try and scare them away, before shooting them is fireing flares upon them. This is sometimes effective, depending on how hungry the bear or if has already found that the flares are not dangerous.
On Svalbard (Norwegian island) you are not allowed to leave the city unless in car, with guide or armed, due to the concentration of polarbears.

Heard of a woman, going to Svalbard, who refused to learn how to shoot and never would shoot at a polarbear. She had a slingshot fabricated for her, to fire froozen meatballs to distract bears. Never heard what happened to her, but polar bears are not that stupid and they have a VERY keen sence of smell, so I would not have been surprised if one had gone directly for the motherload.

bird dog
2006-09-06, 14:26
Take a Knee - You are absolutely correct about the 21 foot rule and the time to draw a weapon. I have a triple retention holster that definately slows your draw time, but increases the security of the weapon while fighting people. To be honest, I dont remember how I got off on the tangent about draw times and the 21 foot rule. My original question was wheteher a tazer (the larger livestock model) would have any effect on a grizzly. I live in North Carolina, so grizzlies are really of no concern to us. Would the tazer work on a black bear? I think it could since most black bears in these parts are small (about the weight of a very large person). Without taking into account draw time and closing time/distance, would the taser work on a wild animal? Im thinking yes.

Turk, if you shot a flare gun at me I would run for cover. So, yes it would be effective as a self defense weapon (at least against me) in the sense that it would give you enough time to exit the AO. BD

Turk
2006-09-06, 18:42
Turk, if you shot a flare gun at me I would run for cover. So, yes it would be effective as a self defense weapon (at least against me) in the sense that it would give you enough time to exit the AO. BD


See thats the problem, and the meat of my question.. if it ever came to firing a flare gun, ... I would hope you couldn't 'run away'. If I was desperate enough to draw and fire... I would like to have some hope of hitting the target. If we take this 21ft rule as a good starting point.. Could you hit anything at all at 30, 40ft? Some of the flare guns I looked at have a velocity of 350+ fps. Is that good or bad in terms of range, accuracy?
:biggrin:

p.s. - I have no idea why I have been putting so much thought into this. Perhaps it is because I own one of the cheap orange plastic 12 gauge models. I have obviously never fired it... but suddenly have this increasing itch to find out how it works fired horizontally... or if it works at all. But since I don't really know how to properly hold or aim a handgun... I can't see that I would be able to gain anything by a field test. Not to mention it just feels wrong to fire off a flare .. period. Like bad karma or something, 'boy who cried wolf syndrome'

oops56
2006-09-06, 18:53
Yep ony one thing when fire horizontally good chance of a forrest fire.

bird dog
2006-09-06, 21:43
Turk - At 350 fps, it is probably enough to incapacitate, but not enough to penetrate. However, we have a weapon called a multi-launcher that fires less than lethal rounds (rubber, bean bag rounds, etc.). Its muzzle velocity is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of your flare gun, maybe just a bit more. In the instances that I have used it / seen it used, it has broken bones. I have only seen it not work once, but that guy was high on cocaine and weighed about 350 (probably the same as a bear). The manufacturer warns not to fire it at head / chest with the ideal aim point being the thigh or abdomen.

So, while Im sure that it will not penetrate, it most certainly will incapacitate IMHO.

BD

Take-a-knee
2006-09-06, 23:15
I remain unconvinced, I've skinned a couple of bears. When you get the hide off of them what is left looks like Mr. Olympia...with teeth.

Iceman
2006-09-07, 00:30
:eek:
See thats the problem...I don't really know how to properly hold or aim a handgun...'


SWEET MOTHER!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!??? I thought every single male on the surface of the earth knew how to hold a handgun and make it go bang!!!???

Oh yeah, you are from Canada, sorry,...forgot.

Turk, you and I need to spend a few days out in the woods together.
You can teach me all 'bout kayaks, poutine, hockey, backbacon and other canadian thingys.
I will show you how to kill things. :biggrin:

bird dog
2006-09-07, 01:18
:eek:
I will show you how to kill things. :biggrin:

AAHHHHHHH.....The American way! Be easy on him Iceman, he is Canadian.

KLeth
2006-09-07, 01:51
I thought every single male on the surface of the earth knew how to hold a handgun and make it go bang! Shooting feels natural to me since I did shoot frequently from I was a kid and long into adulthood, but I have NEVER shot at anything alive, so I do not think that it would come natural for me to fire at e.g. a bear charging at me.
I have fired many weapons: Competition pellet rifles and pistols, .22 competition rifles and pistol, 12 gauge for skeets, 9mm army pistol, 7.62mm 5317 Enfield, 7.62mm Nato G3 and a few other and more interesting weapons.

Our first years of hiking we brought along a signal pen that can fire small flares. This were for safety but also to have the potential ability to scare off animals that could be dangerous. For Greenland we could not bring the flares along (even in cheked in luggage) since they were considered dangerous cargo.
Instead we brought along a "Tornado Whistle", the world loudest whistle - Never got to use it :lollypop:

Turk: You could fire a white flare.

dropkick
2006-09-08, 03:43
This is from a "Living with Bears" pamphlet.

"If you frequent areas where bears live you should carry a noise maker, such as bear bells, and also carry pepper spray.

You should learn how to spot bear sign, as this may give you an indication of whether bears are currently in your area.

You may see over-turned logs or rocks where bears have been rooting for bugs.

A black bear footprints looks much like a man's foot print though wider and shorter. The front leg tracks looks as though a person was walking on their tip-toes, the hind leg tracks like a person walking normally. You may or may not see claw marks.
Grizzly bear tracks are similar to a black bears though much bigger, and normally you will see claw marks.

One of the most obvious signs that bears have been around is their scat.
Black bear scat (when firm) is tubular, between 1-3/8 inches and 1-1/2 inches in diameter. It often contains plant matter and also the remains of other common black bear food: insects, eggs, birds, mice, rats, chipmunks, ground squirrels, fish, honeycomb, and carrion.
Grizzly bear scat is larger, and often contains bells and smells like pepper spray."

john pickett
2006-09-08, 11:38
Dropkick,
Haha. Moldy-oldy. :damnmate:
Back to the flare issue. A company formerly called "Blammo-Ammo" advertised specialty 12 guage ammo such as flare shells, noise makers, and a round they called "Dragon's Breath". This had small particles of; IIRC, flammable metals such as phosphorus which was supposed to emit a multi-yard burst of flame.
I have to admit I have no personal experience with their products, but perhaps someone on the list has played with these neat toys.
john pickett :captain:

Turk
2006-09-08, 18:28
Firstly ... wonder if you had a Ti, or partially TI and steel barrelled flare gun...
wondering how hard it would be to simply use regular 12gauge shells in a slightly modified gun. Though with a 3" barrel I have no idea if that would be wise.


Secondly... back to the bear fence... here's a thought. What if you had a
gearskin made entirely out of solar panel? Don't know how efficient we have
come these days with solar cell efficiency... but say you even hiked with a group of people, wearing entirely solar cell, gear skins.. unfold them 3 or 4..
lay them completely flat ... you have a considerable surface area... Wonder
what you would need to power the electric fence.

The HotDog
2006-09-08, 23:19
Ah, I see that way you could use the fence until the sun goes down and the bears go to sleep, right?

Seriously, that is a interesting idea maybe not to power a fence, but other electronics.

Take-a-knee
2006-09-09, 00:12
Turk, H&K(Germany) used to make a semi-automatic flare "pistol". It looked like a pistol with the barrel/slide chopped off in front of the trigger guard. It was magazine fed, you just kept pulling the trigger to launch flares. If I were a denizen of the North Country, I would consider one of these. Before the advent of the PLB(personal locater beacon) these things were a must have. I still wouldn't consider it an anti-ursus tool, however. If these things still are made, I wouldn't think ammo/flares would be cheap.

SowthEfrikan
2006-09-09, 21:38
No way would I want to be close enough to a bear to test out a tazer. As for electric shocks, my bet is that an enraged bear would go right through the fence without a pause, and have forgotten about it by the time it takes it's first bite out of you. As for learning - I know of dogs that go through electric fences and keep going through them. Some are more resistant then others.

Speaking of guns, I am now a member of the NRA. My hubby enrolled me as revenge when I joined the somewhat demented Sierra Club. I've told him I want a Ti gun to make the membership real. :love: