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incognito
2007-01-10, 17:50
I've modified my zip stove to eliminate the double wall feature. I believe the heating of the fan forced air to be insignificant in the performance of the stove. The volume of forced air being the major contributing factor for the stoves ability to consume wood and provide high heat at a very fast rate.

I will perform tests using my old stove side by side with the modified version as time and weather permits.

First photo shows (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/Christmas2006010.jpg)stove apart before cutting begins

Second photo shows (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/zipminiwarmer013.jpg)cutting complete

Third photo shows (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/modifiedzipstove006.jpg)stove re-assembled

Fourth photo shows (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/modifiedzipstove005.jpg)stove in a bare bones state without upper rim attached. Stove has sufficient strength to be used without it in my opinion. Reduces weight by 18 grams/0.58 oz.

Fifth photo shows (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/zipminiwarmer011.jpg)cutting being made with a Dremel rotory cutting tool. Blade being used is a diamond impregnated cutoff disc.

The stoves weight before modification was 326.2 grams/10.49 oz.

Modified stove(with rim) weighs 203.7 grams/6.55 oz.

Total weight reduction is 122.5 grams/3.94 oz.

The stove weights given are without fan assembly.

Fan assembly with battery weighs 110.5 grams/3.55 oz.

I've completely photographed the modification procedure and will post photos and instructions after burn tests are completed.

.007 stainless steel was used to cap off the shortend inner walls to maintain the flow of forced air through the row of holes located on the lower innermost wall as seen in one of the photos.

Enough people wanted titanium zip stoves so they made them using TI. If enough people want a single walled stove they'll make them that way, don't you think so? Less walls, less weight.

Kicking the stove building habit is hard!!!!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

JAK
2007-01-10, 21:45
I would be interested in knowing how it might perform, and how much it might weigh, if made of insulating ceramic instead of metal. Nice photos.

SGT Rock
2007-01-11, 12:58
I think you are on the right track there with the idea. It will be interesting to see how that works.

Lanthar
2007-01-11, 15:04
Neither Risk's Forge (http://www.imrisk.com/forge/forge.htm) nor Risk's WindScreen Forge (http://www.imrisk.com/forge/wsforge.htm) actually use a double wall so from an airflow saving's it will work.

JAK
2007-01-11, 17:31
One of the aspects of a wood burning stove is for warming people, since fuel conservation is less of an issue. I think a windscreen and insulation still makes sense for reducing smoke and improving boil times, but for warming your body or bodies a larger reflector might be more appropriate. I am thinking of putting super thin aluminum tape on one side of my sleeping pad for this purpose. I would still have my pack to sit on while cooking. I where a heavy wool sweater in winter, dark brown, and I find the best way to keep it dry is to wear it all the time, even when I am drying it by a fire. Ideally you would have a reflector behind the fire, and another behind you also, so it needs some more thought.

incognito
2007-01-12, 19:24
Tests will be conducted tomorrow and results will be posted on Monday.

For current update go here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=302636#post302636)

oops56
2007-01-13, 02:40
Has any beside me tried wood pellets burn hot but dirty takes very little just enough cover bottom


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_sierra2.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/sierra2.jpg)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/th_sierra1.jpg (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/sierra1.jpg)

tom blum
2007-01-13, 10:23
JAK

In a Word:
Space Blanket.

Okay! Two Words
<G>
Tom

incognito
2007-01-13, 23:51
Hav'nt tried them. What do you use as fire starter? Where do you buy pellets. Do you think seasoned rabbit turds/pellets would work?

Tests are done, results will be post Monday.

Had lots of fun!!!!!!!!! Made lots of smoke and creosote.

oops56
2007-01-14, 00:16
How to light and use just like you wait tell monday:ahhhhh:

JAK
2007-01-14, 10:30
JAK

In a Word:
Space Blanket.

Okay! Two Words
<G>
TomSo that's what those damn things are for.:albertein

Good enough reason to carry one now. Thanks.

JAK
2007-01-14, 10:34
Hav'nt tried them. What do you use as fire starter? Where do you buy pellets. Do you think seasoned rabbit turds/pellets would work?

Tests are done, results will be post Monday.

Had lots of fun!!!!!!!!! Made lots of smoke and creosote.
re: seasoned rabbit turds/pellets.
You might be thinking of the Littlest Hobo Stove.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Thelittlesthobo.jpg

oops56
2007-01-16, 00:21
o. K. its Monday night almost gone where is the sierra report Incognito now how i light wood pellets just a little alcohol on them let burn for a few then hit the fan

incognito
2007-01-16, 00:51
Three tests for each stove have been completed.



After lighting, each stove was given one min. of time for tinder to ignite fuel and then pot of water containing two cups of water was placed onto stove. A clock was placed in a position to the rear and off to the side for photos to show min. into burn.



Temperature of water, fuel and air was at 35 degrees for the first two sets of tests. The temperature for the third set of tests had risen to 37 degrees.



No photographs were taken of the first set of tests



This first photo shows both stoves packed with same amount of fuel.



The next six photos show the progression of testing the unmodified stove during the second set of tests.



Photo one: 2 min. into burn

Photo two: 3 min. into burn

Photo three: 3 1/2 min. into burn

photo four: 5 min. into burn, water boils, flame starts to get smaller

Photo five: 6 min. into burn, steam comes out and raises lid of pot

Photo six: 6 1/2 min into burn shows fuel remaining



The next seven photos show the progression of the testing of the modified stove during the second set of tests.



Photo one: 2 min. into burn

Photo two: 3 min. into burn

Photo three: 4 min. into burn

Photo four: 4 1/2 min. into burn, boiling water pushes lid off pot

Photo five: 4 3/4 min. into burn shows boiling water and flame pattern

Photo six: shows remaining fuel

Photo seven: shows remaining fuel 1/2 min. later



The next eight photos show the progression of the third test done on the unmodified stove. Also shows how the fuel was packed into the burn chamber. The fuel was stacked around a clothespin in the center and later removed before lighting the tinder located at the base of the clothespin. The clothespin formed a hole that was used to put the butane lighter into to start the tinder as shown in one of the photos.



Photo one: shows lay of fuel and clothespin in center

Photo two: filled with fuel with clothespin in middle

Photo three: shows butane lighter in center hole to show how stoves were llit

Photo four: 3 3/4 min. into burn

Photo five: 4 min. 10 sec. into burn, temp at 150+ degrees

Photo six: 4 min. 20 sec. into burn

Photo seven: 5 min. into burn, temp. at 200 deg.

Photo eight: 6 min. into boil water boils



The next three photos show the progression of the third test done on the modified stove. Water boiled at 4 1/2 min.



Photo one: 2 min into burn

Photo two: 2 min. 36 sec. into burn shows flame pattern

Photo three: 3 min. into burn





The next two photos show cleanliness of stoves before and after test.



Photo one: before tests

Photo two: after tests







Boil times for each stove:



Unmodified: Test one: 5 1/2 min.

Test two: 5 min.

Test three: 6 min



Modified: Test one:4 1/2 min.

Test two: 4 min.

Test three: 4 1/2 min.


Sorry, did'nt have time to post photos, they can be seen on Whiteblaze

For current update go here: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/printthread.php?t=20416

KBob
2007-01-16, 09:05
So the modified stove heats the water faster than the standard? gotta look at those instructions again. What if I subed a Ti Sierra cup or pot as the inner part and cut it down plus moded the base I wonder how light I could get it.

Lanthar
2007-01-16, 10:48
So the modified stove heats the water faster than the standard? gotta look at those instructions again. What if I subed a Ti Sierra cup or pot as the inner part and cut it down plus moded the base I wonder how light I could get it.

Someone mentioned it over on WB, but 'less-torturous air path' = 'more air flow', so I'm not surprised it burned hotter and faster (though I hadn't thought it through originally).

incognito
2007-01-17, 00:12
this is the post I made on WB


[quote=zelph;301043]I've modified my zip stove to eliminate the double wall feature. I believe the heating of the fan forced air to be insignificant in the performance of the stove.

I'm satisfied with results. The results went beyond my expectations. I was expecting the same results from both stoves.

Lanthar was able to see the comparative pictures of massive flames.

Followed the suggestion made by terrapin-too to include large dowel rods, came close to the 1" was able to make it up to 7/8". The one photo shows 2 of them on top of the loaded unmodified stove with the clothespin sticking upright in the middle.

The most important thing that we learned here is how insignificant heated air is to the function of the Sierra Zzip stove.

Another thing we learned from Fleischmann and Pons, it's not science until it's shown to be repeatable.
Repeatability is the variation in measurements taken by a single person or instrument on the same item and under the same conditions. A measurement may be said to be repeatable when this variation is smaller than some agreed limit. According to the Guidelines for Evaluating and Expressing the Uncertainty of NIST Measurement Results, repeatability conditions include:
the same measurement procedure
the same observer
the same measuring instrument, used under the same conditions
the same location
repetition over a short period of time.
I believe I have satisfied Terrapin-too's requirements by complying with the above conditions

Also we learned what it is to be reproduceable

Reproducibility is one of the main principles of the scientific method, and refers to the ability of a test or experiment to be accurately reproduced, or replicated, by someone else working independently. The term is very closely related to the concept of testability and, depending on the particular field, may require the test or experiment to be falsifiable.
Reproducibility is different from repeatability, which measures the success rate in successive experiments, possibly conducted by the same experimenters. While repeatability of scientific experiments is desirable, it is not considered necessary to establish the scientific validity of a theory. For example, the cloning of animals is difficult to repeat, but has been reproduced by various teams working independently, and is a well established research domain. One failed cloning does not mean that the theory is wrong or unscientific.

It will only be a matter of time before someone else will modify their Zzip stove to satisfy those that are in disbelief .

Thank You Terrapin for the link to Fleischmann and Pons,

"NOTHING VENTURED NOTHING GAINED"




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KLeth
2007-01-17, 01:34
Well done Incognito :adore:
I am going to modify my Sierra Zipm when I have finished restoring my old Primus stoves :bandit: