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JAK
2007-04-13, 16:48
As a mental exercise, how would you go about a trip for maximum distance in 40 days without resupply? I'm thinking I would need to lose some weight, but not all of it, and perhaps some brain cells also, but not all of them, then it might be doable.

Stage 0 = Get back into shape, like 180# shape, which might take all summer and next winter also, but so what, as long as I'm hiking and getting into shape.

Stage 1 = First 10 days, starting with 90# of food maybe, and perhaps get the rest of the gear and clothes down to 10#. Might be pushing it. 75# of food and 15# of gear and clothes should be doable though. The first 10 days would require the most strength, and would be injury prone in that sense. Less travel hours per day probably. Might cover about 2/3 the distance per day as average of the trip.

Stage 2 = Next 20 days. Pack getting lighter every day, so the pace and duration improves steadily, but the pace is still steady to keep the heart rate down and burn more fat and less carbs for better mileage.

Stage 3 = Last 10 days. Finally back in the realm of ultralight hiking. If the body is still holding up, some night travel might be in order to maximize distance while keeping the pace steady. Might cover twice the distance per day as the first stage, perhaps more. When the body weight has dropped from 180# down to 150#, and the food is all gone, should probable stop.

Makes for some interesting design problems, perhaps with traditional solutions.

Food and Fuel - Wood stove probably, if permitted.
90# of food is not just heavy, but is high volume, so denser foods must be chosen, but over 40 days nutrition is even more critical than normal, so the food would also need to be well balanced with all the vitamins and stuff you need, and still be highly consumable and digestible. I'm thinking semi-traditional, pemican and bannock and jerky abd stuff, with honey and nuts and raisins and dates and oatmeal thrown in.

Pack and Shelter - Pack needs to be a bit of a monster at least starting out. Something like the gearskin might be in order. Perhaps the pack material could also be shelter, or hammock. Alternatively, I was wondering it an external frame could also be a sleeping cot somehow, to increase comfort and reduce pack volume.

How much volume is 90# of food? What sort of pack is needed?
Could it also be a cot, for the same weight as pack frame and sleeping pads?
Or would a hammock make even more sense than usual for such a trip?
Would a solar charger finally make sense for such a trip?

oops56
2007-04-13, 16:55
JAK JAK wake up your are having a bad dream:albertein

txulrich
2007-04-13, 17:19
I would think that if you're going that far into the wilderness to be away from resupply for 40 days, you may want to consider the ability to live off the land. Our forefathers knew how to do just that and did quite often. I know it smacks in the face of leave no trace, but survival takes precedent.

I knew a guy once who worked for a logging company. He would go into the woods for weeks to mark trees and live off the land while there. He had forgotten more about survival than I ever knew.

Take-a-knee
2007-04-13, 17:50
Add a seven-pound Steyr Scout with both full power and reduced loads(for small game) to your kit and you can stay out as long as you and your local game and fish officials can agree upon.

Turk
2007-04-13, 19:37
Good topic Jak,

I'll toss in my two cents. I have 2 friends that spend 14-30 days in the bush without resupply, every year between June and August for summer work. The big lumber companies in northern Ontario pay student workers to mark trees for cutting and cut trails for offroad vehicles to access future work sites, and build supply dumps.

4 man teams, each carrying 60lb packs and trading off a rake,scythe, shovel, axe and 12lb chainsaw between hands everyday make up the crew. You follow routes that have been marked in orange paint by forestry workers and basically cut a path 6-8ft wide. (just enough to bring in the ATV's with the bigger crews and larger equipment. You get paid by the kilometer, so the mentality and goals are very similar to the hiking scenario in your post. The goal is maximum distance in as short a time as possible to make enough money to pay tuition for school in the fall and have some left to blow on booze and fun.:biggrin: Of course the job has to be done properly at the same time.

Everyone is trained to the same strategy. 40lbs of the packs weight for each person is in gasoline for the saw, mandatory first aid/medical, tools, repair parts, safety equipment, kits ,etc etc. All related to the job to be done. That leaves only 20lbs of everything else one needs to spend up to a month in the untracked wilderness.

Here were a few tactics some good/ some bad... but worth noting..

- Teamwork, teamwork, teamwork. Everyone sharing the load, passing that damn saw off to the next set of hands, sharing the camp chores, sharing pots to cook in, sharing all the food, sharing all the luxury items. Sharing everything. The whole thing was only doable, and manageable when everyone pitched in and pulled their own weight. For the scenario you described with the 90lb packs.. think just how much of a factor having extra bodies makes. Going solo vs a group effort is a monumental difference. Anything one guy can do, is made at least 1/3-1/2 easier by adding another person.

- An 18" fishing rod. The single most valuable piece of gear. A deaf dumb and blind guy could support himself in north ON bush with fishing gear. Every night somebody fishes, while the others take on that guys camp chores. Since the land is such you have to traverse only 20+ lakes,streams,creeks,rivers etc on any given day... there is never a shortage of fishing grounds. And I've never heard of anyone not being able to make camp on a water source. It would take more effort not to. Because you can fish every day and easily provide a filling meal of brook trout for 4 hard working guys.. the rest of the food supply was basically limited to alot of Ramen, peanut butter, and dried fruits. I can't imagine the food required, if you couldnt guarantee successful and plentiful fish every night. The calories burned during those days of long hard labour were enormous.

- Biggest problem and the no.1 safety concern (aside from the chainsaw training) the company had, was teams burning out and major weight loss. They drill and drill and drill into you the importance of hydrating and diet. Even so, for the few groups that were in terrain that would allow a crew to go 30days on the fuel they carried for their saw, they were losing 25+ lbs. You'd hear stories about groups that just burnt out completely and were sleeping 10+hrs every night but always exhausted. Or other guys that ate and ate and ate, but by the end were always sick, stomach cramping and yet ravenously hungry at the same time. Obviously there was a major problem with the whole strategy. Then again people will often kill themselves to make as much money as possible.

- Lastly, gear selection. Some gear was mandated, such as heavy triple layer, hotter than hell (never EVER dry) chainsaw pants, steel toe/shank boots with tongue guards (that also never dried), glasses, ear protecting and hard hats (which everone wore clipped to the daisy chain on your pack:biggrin: ) some guys went right hard core and slept only in their work clothes are a lightweight bivy. Most were using the Alpha tent, which is just a military rain poncho with 2 short fiberglass poles. All else was considered group gear. Hygiene was next to non existant. Luxury items were scrutinized and carefully coveted and tucked away to be presented only at such time as to effect the most ohhhs and ahhhhs. Marijuana, cigarettes and alcohol sometimes getting standing ovations when presented during a rainstorm in windy conditions. Other things like harmonicas, mp3 players or books were often sacrificed to the camp fire or tossed off a cliff when their novelty wore out other members of the group.


So ... what does it all amount to? On a long unsupported trip?
Diet is everything.
Big distance and major physical extertion can and slowly does kill you.
Morale is everything. The little things.. luxury item, whatever can be a huge impact on mental well being.

Iceman
2007-04-13, 19:52
Add a seven-pound Steyr Scout with both full power and reduced loads(for small game) to your kit and you can stay out as long as you and your local game and fish officials can agree upon.

Don't tell them.

JAK
2007-04-13, 20:38
I would certainly have no qualms about foraging, and plan on it. I'm just not very good at it. In terms of small food, we have rabbits and squirrel season in fall and winter, and a varmints including ground hogs and crows that runs in spring and fall, so it is possible to carry a firearm year round, for one reason or the other. In winter rabbits are fairly abundant and in season and just the ticket. In summer, where I hike along the shore, it is mostly squirrels I see, and small red squirrels rather than the large grey squirrels, and they are only supposed to be hunted in the Fall. I don't know if crows are edible, though I have heard that sea gulls are edible. Regular bird season is in Fall, same as squirrels. If I was deep enough in the woods or along the shore I don't think it would hurt to mistake the odd squirrel for a gopher, as long as I ate it. Rabbits wouldn't be fair game though, out of season, as some people do depend on those. I would have thought a small 22 might be the better choice, for squirrels and rabbits. Would it kill a gopher, if I did come across one while hiking, and hungry? I have thought about bow hunting, being easier to practice while hiking without making a lot of noise. I don't think it would be as easy to pick up, but it would be a great way to get to know the woods better. I understand flu flu arrows would not get lost so easy. I think that's what I would like to try. Bow hunting for squirrels year round, and probably snares in winter for rabbits.

JAK
2007-04-13, 20:50
Very interesting post Turk. That's the other great thing about having to lug everything in. Tends to keep drinking and such in moderation, and better appreciated. Working in the woods is something I've always wanted to do. How old do people stay at it?

Of course I would run out of room here in Southern New Brunswick if I ever had 40 days to string together, so I thing Northern Ontario, Quebec, or Labrador, or down the AT would be just the ticket. New Brunswick is great for short trips close to home though. I like the fishing idea. I will have to try that along the Fundy shore. I've seen some people fishing at Little Salmon River.

JAK
2007-04-13, 21:04
Nice looking rifle that steyr scout.
So how far away are we shooting these squirrels from?
http://www.steyrscout.org/sszeroing.htm

Here's an interesting choice at 5.9 pounds.
http://www.steyrscout.org/sul.htm
Now I'm trying to figure out how many squirrels make up 5.9 pounds plus ammo. I guess that's not the point really. Nice looking rifle.

A sling shot would be lots of fun to try again also.
Might be just the thing for red squirrels, flying squirrels maybe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9-T-xVlvU
Not quite what I had in mind when I googled.

TeeDee
2007-04-13, 21:05
You didn't mention pack animals, but consider goats. The proper breed make great pack animals. Get 3, 2 to carry packs and 1 for rotation. They make good company and great sentinels - if a bear is anywhere near, you will know it immediately - they will get as close to you as possible. Feeding them is easy - they eat practically any plant you will ever encounter. One goat can carry between 50 and 60 pounds. You may want to go lighter to spare the goat and with 2 carrying loads, you shouldn't have any problem. You can put anything ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL on your own back and still keep your load light.

They really do make great pack animals and trail companions.

Besides, you can eat one if everything else fails - and then call yourself a cannibal for eating your best friend. :afraid: :biggrin:

TeeDee
2007-04-13, 21:32
If you are considering a rifle, take a look at the Kel-Tec:

http://www.kel-tec.com/su16b.html

I have seen some very good reviews on the Kel-Tec. In the right hands it can be impressive - and at 4.5 lbs (2 kG for a Canadian :biggrin: ) not too heavy to carry. It folds which can make packing it easier.

It uses the 5.56 mm NATO ammo which is plentiful. They also have the sub-2000 carbine which uses 9mm ammo. A good review of the sub-2000 is here:

http://www.gunblast.com/Kel-Tec_Sub2000.htm

I read a review of one of the su-16 models last year. The author was very impressed. Can no longer find the review.

I think the su-16CA is probably the best of the bunch.

Turk
2007-04-13, 21:33
.22 vs bow/crossbow is perhaps the single biggest controversial topic related to survival second only to "bear encounters". Won't even open that can of worms.
IMHO (not being a gun owner)... if/when I do buy a gun. it will definately be the Henry US Survival .22 LR.
2.5lbs. Packs 3pc to 16.5", no tooling and it floats.

Teedee, you make me wish I had a goat. Whats a goat worth anyway? Have lots in southern ontario. Never see any in the north. If it was cheap enough. I'd pack one in every time to base camp, or supply dump for a longer future trip and then eat it. Mmm goat. That would probablly be habit forming. Would need to have lots of goats

JAK
2007-04-13, 22:18
I've heard there are places you can rent pack goats, but I think if you eat them you lose your deposit. Neat idea.

Very cool:
http://www.henryrepeating.com/h002_survival.cfm
In a survival situation could you take a deer with one if close enough? I would guess you could, rather inhumanely, unless a very good shot, or would such a thing be reasonable with such a weapon with the right loads, in the right hands? I wonder how much venison I could eat if I was really hungry. I suppose its a moot point if you could just stick to rabbits. The rabbit skins are supposed to be very handy also. I read in an old book that trappers used to make blankets out of them, 100 or so, cut into strips and woven.

500 rounds would last quite a few days I suppose. Weigh about 3 pounds. Is that about right? I'm not sure if the slower ammo ends up being lighter or heavier. Would you also carry a few special rounds in case you had reason to take a deer, if close enough, or is it the wrong weapon, entirely for that? Interesting subject I have never really ventured into since basic training.

Take-a-knee
2007-04-13, 22:45
Unless you can hire a gun bearer, you'll only be able to carry one rifle. I prefer a 308 Winchester (7.62 Nato) in as light a rifle as possible with a synthetic stock. 20-40 rounds of full power ammo and a lot of reduced power loads for small game, you'll have to load those yourself. I like the forward-mounted scout scope, there is nothing wrong with a low-powered variable, such as a 1x4, 1.5X5, or a 2x7 max, mounted in the conventional location. You need one power of magnification for each hundred yards. You shouldn't be shooting at anything past 400yd so you don't need a 12x scope, contrary to what some say.

The goat thing is way cool, being an old SF medic, I know goats. They are little mules with horns. A goat will get fat on range that a cow will starve to death on, this is why they are so prevalant in the 3rd world.

As for fishing, that is about the best source of survival protein there is. Except for salmon, most fish is low-cal/ lowfat, so it is hard to eat enough calories. You need to pack pasta and olive oil, and use a lot of it. The old trappers used to take a bear and render it's fat for the winter. If you eat nothing but rabbits all winter, you'll never see spring. They call it rabbit starvation, you basically die from lack of vitamins A, D, E & K, as they are all absorbed only in the presence of fat (lipid soluble). Exactly this happened to a lot of northern trappers when the caribou migration bypassed them. Aboriginal cultures usually evloved around chasing large mammals, ie caribou, bison, etc. for a reason, they offer the best nutrition.

GGS
2007-04-14, 01:43
Interesting! I never heard of rabbit starvation before. Good info.

Thudley
2007-05-03, 10:34
Wow Turk...I'm impressed!

Your post on the experiences of the logging groups is one of the best I've read. Plenty of good info there, and I copied it all. Not that I'm planning such a sortie...but it's great stuff for survival situations. I always have fishing gear in my survival kit, and I figure that I can make it a few weeks on fish alone until I'm rescued. I learned about "rabbit strvation" in Survival School, but I never was any good at cleaning game anyway.

If I ever find myself in a survival situation, I hope my partner is someone who has your kind of knowledge.

sailingsoul
2007-05-03, 18:10
O.K. What has been suggested so far, for firearms are...... Steyr Scout, Kel-tec, Henry Survival 22L, and 308 Winchester. Well! I'm surprised that these two haven't got mentioned. I don't dream that they are in the running but they should at least be seen. They are ultralight for what they do. SS:captain:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N0cEAR1zmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBbjt3OZydg

Take-a-knee
2007-05-03, 18:55
SS, those would work well if you goal is merely to wound or scare the hell out of someone. I would hate to depend on either for dinner...or to stop a determined aggressor. A projectile from 0.264 to 0.308 launched at 2500fps+ is a known quantity, it'll get the job done with out beating you up or burning up a barrel.

Those things would work for crowd control.

Amigi
2007-05-04, 21:58
Kel-Tecs, .308s, Steyrs.... Wasnt JAK talking about squirrells and rabbit?
I know JAK, just lay out some claymores before you go to sleep, and then in the morning you can just scrape off of the trees whatevers left.:)

I still love my Ruger 10/22 for goofing off in the woods with. I put a composite folding stock on it with an internal 10 mag. For small game I would use Federal Hypervels. X the tip and no squirrel or rabbits gonna survive the knockdown. Plus you kinda look like a scaled down Rambo carring the thing.
http://www.gunaccessories.com/1022/stocks.asp
I have the Butler Creek.

Take-a-knee
2007-05-04, 23:28
The topic was ONE GUN for a survival/forage scenario. IMO the most practical rifle for that is a light weight carbine in 308 or some similar caliber. Small game is shot with reduced loads, that you have handloaded. Col. Townsend Whelan would go on extended wilderness trips with a bag of salt and some flour and a stash of full power and reduced loads and come back without losing a pound.

Amigi
2007-05-05, 12:18
The topic was ONE GUN for a survival/forage scenario. IMO the most practical rifle for that is a light weight carbine in 308 or some similar caliber. Small game is shot with reduced loads, that you have handloaded. Col. Townsend Whelan would go on extended wilderness trips with a bag of salt and some flour and a stash of full power and reduced loads and come back without losing a pound.

I apologize, I thought the topic was JAK out in the Bush, not Whelan survival tactics. I go on extended wilderness trips with nothing but KY and a credit card, but thats just me.:bandit: :biggrin:

I have never seen that collapssing .22 before. I would love to play with one before buying it.

Any yes, you can take a deer with a .22 LR HV but a lot of things would need to go your way. You would need to lose all human odor for one, hard to do on a 40 day trip without planning on it, be very close, and be a very very good shot. But a HV would pierce the hide, and then would probably ruputure the heart messily if you hit it right.
I would think though for weight if you really were planning on taking a deer and wanted as light as weight as possible, then check this one:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdSpecsView?model=7016
The older version is used for bear defense by some game commissions. I once met a game warden in NJ who carried a .22 mag pistol. He swore it was the best weapon for killing a bear quick next to an RPG.
Yes, a .308 or a 30/30 is a great caliber for survival, but I think its a bit much if you're only talking a 'planned' trip for 40 days and taking nothing but TOO like squirrel, rabbit, gopher, or dog:eek: . ( that's targets of opportunity )

Iceman
2007-05-06, 10:22
I agree that a 22LR or Mag would be a great survival rifle. I would attempt bear defense with either, and then die trying. What type of bear are we talking about killing here...an angry bear making a charged pass at you? I would want much more power than either .22 is capable of delivering. My choice for bear defense is Smith and Wesson, 460 XVR, whoa momma' ! http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14776&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15707&isFirearm=Y

Also, I see no problem with taking a deer for sustenance with a .22lr or mag. Place your smelly body downwind of your game, and you can smoke a cigarette and eat a philly cheese as you pull the trigger. I know a guy who shot a 5x6 bull elk as he dumped a load, hadn't even wiped yet. ...it's all about which way the wind is blowing. I would also aim at the lungs, especially with a small caliber. Thin hide here, .22 can penetrate a rib bone, and then disrupt both lungs, deer can't go too far with a double lung shot, from any caliber. Aim lower at the heart and you gonna' miss, gonna go hungry.....

Amigi, nice choice on the Ruger...

I still like the idea of a survival revolver or semiauto though...small, lightweight, on your hip. Not as accurate as the rifle, but the weight savings means you can carry more rounds with you. I have started to carry a Ruger Mark II Target/Bull barrel semi auto, and have fallen in love with this bad MFer. I placed a fiberoptic sight package on it, and it is wicked accurate now... A true meat stick, albight short. Not sure how well it would do with some mud in it....probably have some problems.


Lets also face it.... I do not think there is a perfect match for a survival / self defense weapon which is light, will take all game, and defend yourself from all threats.... The reality is; small is good for food, bad for defense, and vice-a versa... Bring the folding/collapsible rifle, and are you going to walk around with it broken down in your pack? Do you really need a floating rifle? Spill your canoe, and your pistol stays attached to your body, you sink, who cares.... Bring a long gun, and you will probably leave it next to your fire or camp as you gather wood. Now what are you going to shoot that grouse or rabbit with? A handgun is with you, always. Taking a poop, there it is. Sleep, there it is. On the trail....ready to go. Getting firewood and want to shoot that squirrel, ready to go.

Pistol good, rifle bad.


Name that poop in photo 2....

oops56
2007-05-06, 10:33
Thats not poop them puff balls:ahhhhh:

Iceman
2007-05-06, 10:39
Wrong answer, try again...

Skidsteer
2007-05-06, 20:25
Wrong answer, try again...

Elk.......

Iceman
2007-05-06, 22:22
Bigger.


(Now I sound like Hollowdweller, speaking of which, Hollowdweller; where you been hiding? Did you ever add checkering to that knife you made?)

GGS
2007-05-07, 02:21
Bigger.

(Now I sound like Hollowdweller, speaking of which, Hollowdweller; where you been hiding? Did you ever add checkering to that knife you made?)

Bigger than Elk? Moose maybe?

dropkick
2007-05-07, 05:31
That would be a moose.
Elk droppings are smaller in size, darker in color and better digested (smoother texture).

And a .22 is the perfect weapon for killing a bear. You just have to stick it inside the bear before firing (either end works).

Survival weapon (for food) I'd take an Armilite AR-7 .22 LR
It weighs 2 1/2 lbs. (minus shells) and the barrel comes off and fits into the stock. -Not sure if they still make them though.

2nd choice would be one of those combination .410 shotgun/.22's the Airforce used for downed pilots (and maybe still do?)

3rd choice 12 ga. pump. (if I have to worry about bears this moves to 1st choice)

4th a 30-06 (w/bears 2nd choice)

Amigi
2007-05-07, 10:07
"I know a guy who shot a 5x6 bull elk as he dumped a load, hadn't even wiped yet"

I just spit my coffee on my screen, lol.

Iceman
2007-05-07, 10:20
Moose it is, Dropkick wins.

The .22/410 would be a great survival choice, very cool, been looking for a used savage .22/410, but no one wants to part with them...

Amigi, sorry about the mess. :biggrin:

Take-a-knee
2007-05-07, 11:16
Savage made that over-and-under combo in 30/30 & 12 guage. Ackley the 30/30 (and load spitzers) with a slug in the bottom barrel and it would do fine for bear defense and/or survival "poaching". I still say a Scout or something similar (like an FR8 if you can find one) is the single most useful firearm. Add a S&W Scandium revolver for a handgun.

Iceman
2007-05-08, 00:04
I have a savage 22/20guage, awesome little grouse and rabbit blaster. Would buy up the same in 22/410. I was looking for a .223/12gauge to take turkey hunting, damn coyotes like my turkey calls so much they sneak up on me for a bite. I would love the .223 atop the shotgun to tweak the dogs with....

Lots of rifle/shotgun combo's on the market again, seem to be gaining a bit of popularity of recent. I hefted a used Russian made 30-06/12 gauge recently. So damned heavy....no way....

oops56
2007-05-08, 00:24
Well i got me a Nice 28 gage double matador like new only had two boxes shells shot out of it. Full & modified.plus [black power flint rife 45 pistol 45] & 22 - 22 mag pistol western type.

dropkick
2007-05-08, 06:14
I'm actually pretty happy with my .357 revolver for when I carry.
It's a little heavy but I'm familiar with it and it's comfortable to my hand.

Though I did handle a really well balanced Ruger .454 Casull the other day and I'm very tempted - you never know when you might meet a mean tempered rhino on the trail.

Amigi
2007-05-08, 10:01
.22 vs bow/crossbow is perhaps the single biggest controversial topic related to survival second only to "bear encounters". Won't even open that can of worms.
IMHO (not being a gun owner)... if/when I do buy a gun. it will definately be the Henry US Survival .22 LR.
2.5lbs. Packs 3pc to 16.5", no tooling and it floats.


Hey Turk, I went down to Gander Mountain yesterday and played with one on their range. The first thing I noticed is that the stock is very uncomfortable, its about twice at thick as a regular stock. Next the single shot action on this thing just drove me crazy. I couldnt get a good aim since there's nowhere comfortable for me to place my forward hand. If I wanted something to toss in the trunk of my car for a just incase I fall off a mountain and needed to survive rifle scenario, ok I'd buy it. But I would never pack it on purpose for a trip into the bush. JMO.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-08, 12:05
Aren't firearms illegal in state parks and such?

Here is a survival shotgun, great weapon.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28&display=feat

TeeDee
2007-05-08, 14:53
I'm actually pretty happy with my .357 revolver for when I carry.
It's a little heavy but I'm familiar with it and it's comfortable to my hand.

Though I did handle a really well balanced Ruger .454 Casull the other day and I'm very tempted - you never know when you might meet a mean tempered rhino on the trail.

I've got a Colt Python .357 magnum, 8" barrel that was my Dad's. He bought it new and fired it once using a .38 cartridge. He had it a few years and then shipped it to me over 20 years back. I haven't fired it yet. Been tempted a few times, but never had the time to get to a range to try it. Wondered a few times what it would be like.

So you like the .357. Think I should find the time to try it?

Amigi
2007-05-08, 18:12
I have a S&W .357 4" Lmd Edition New Jersey State Trooper from 1986. It's my bedroom weapon loaded with pneumatic oil hollows. I wouldnt trust my safety to anything else. But I dont carry it, way too heavy to walk around with. My weapon in my car is my Beretta 92 ( M9 civ model ) with straight Federal hollows and my CWP weapon is this little guy loaded with Glazers:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/glock28.html
Yeah, I know ".380 sucks". Not with Glazer rounds it doesnt...

Amigi
2007-05-08, 18:15
Aren't firearms illegal in state parks and such?


Not with a CWP in ol gun loving Florida they aint. I have never agreed with carrying on the AT. But here in FL when you hike, it's possible to be 100s of miles from any civilization that you would wanna be a part of ( squeal like a pig! ). So down here, I carry.

Iceman
2007-05-09, 00:19
.. it's possible to be 100s of miles from any civilization that you would wanna be a part of ( squeal like a pig! ). So down here, I carry. LMAO :rofl:

Hey Amigi, 380's aint so bad really...., better than nothing, besides, this is your "up close and personal" shooter anyway..... With better planning, you would probably be packing the big stuff.

I was actually looking at NAA's 380Gaurdian. Concealable...7 shooter. http://www.naaminis.com/380.html

You really like your Glock380?

Teedee, if your are looking to sell, PM me...

dropkick
2007-05-09, 01:12
Aren't firearms illegal in state parks and such?

Here is a survival shotgun, great weapon.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28&display=feat

Not in Montana.
Illegal to fire them in or near a camping area though.

Amigi
2007-05-12, 22:23
LMAO :rofl:
You really like your Glock380?


I am not a big fan of Glock. More a S&W or Beratta guy, but I went to Shoot Straight one day, and told the guy what I was looking for. At the time, I carried my 92, and just got tired from the weight of the damn thing. First thing he grabs is the .380. I said not for me, but he let me test one. Sold me after the first mag. I cant hit shit with it past 25 feet, but that's not what it's for....
If I had to do it again, I woulda got this one now that the word Glock doesnt make me turn and run.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/glock36.html
You're a bigger guy than me, you could probably hide a bazooka:biggrin: , but my skinny azz cant hide much more than my 28. Thank God for my beer gut.

pure_mahem
2007-05-12, 22:33
Moose it is, Dropkick wins.

The .22/410 would be a great survival choice, very cool, been looking for a used savage .22/410, but no one wants to part with them...

Amigi, sorry about the mess. :biggrin:
They sell one at Walmart!
Personaly my choice would be a handgun like you said http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=14&category=Pistol
:beer:

pure_mahem
2007-05-12, 22:38
Aren't firearms illegal in state parks and such?


NOT in VERMONT!!!!
:aetsch:

TeeDee
2007-05-14, 21:48
Teedee, if your are looking to sell, PM me...

Iceman - not really too sure what I want to do with it. It was Dad's even though he only fired it once. He did have a Lugar at one time. That one I wish he had kept and passed to me. I've read they have a bad habit of jamming, but they just look sooooo coooool. That same article mentioned that the Lugar was one of the best, if not the best, handguns for fitting the hand - the ergonomics were superb according to that author.

Iceman
2007-05-14, 23:20
Ya, I would hold onto it too!

Take-a-knee
2007-05-15, 00:53
TeeDee, your Father left you a far superior handgun too a Luger, take that Python out and SHOOT IT! I don't like the grip on a Luger, it works okay for an FBI-one hand/Bullseye stance. With a combat stance (isoceles) most people point the muzzle down naturally. I do this with a Glock, which is why I sanded the grip down to match the grip angle on a 1911, John Moses Browning was a true genius.

Geo.
2007-05-18, 05:49
40 days is a long time without re-supply and I'd think the success would depend on the area you were in and the number of miles you had to cover in that 40 days. Things like attainable game, edible vegetation etc would be a factor plus would you be hauling more equip weight because of the climate/terrain at the loss of carrying more food weight.
The indigenous peoples in the past survived ok, but game was more plentiful then and they also spent a lot of time just in one area hunting/trapping - you could do that but you wouldn't be covering many miles towards your destination if you have to get from A to B in that 40 days, and if there's nothing about or you're not successful hunting/trapping, then you're eating into your supplies without gaining mileage.
I rely heavily on dehydrated foods for extended periods - you can get a lot of meals into a pack that way - pasta, potato, (for bulk) vegetables and of course some vitamins. Also carry a couple of small salamis and take a slice or two a day - they last indefinitely without refrigeration. Jerky would be good too. I just get dehyd foods from the supermarket as they are a lot cheaper and seem to keep me going ok.
I've not long got back from 12 days away, carried twelve days food supply and came back with six days supply left over. Reason being I carried some fishing line and hooks, and the area I was in had access to the coast and access to fish, shellfish off rocks, seaweeds, so I could supplement my supplies. My first stop back at civilisation was steak and chips (fries) ;)
If you are in good shape and have water and the right mindset, from what I've read, you could last 30 days without any food anyhow, so if you are carrying food then that's a bonus! :proud:
Though you're definitely going to lose weight over a long distance if you're carrying and rationing your food - I lost about 20lbs on a five month hike and I wasn't big to start with!

Iceman
2007-05-18, 11:36
Geo, what type of salamis are you talking about? Once opened, are you having to focus on them as your food source to avoid spoilage, or are you finding no spoilage for many days, even after exposure to oxygen? I have usually had concerns once they are opened up...

On one trip I selected a dryer salami to reduce the moisture to protein ratio, less fear of microbial spoilage.... Italian Dry salami... I read somewhere less water content.....less risk for spoilage.

john pickett
2007-05-18, 14:21
Those who want a general purpose firearm might consider a sub-caliber chamber insert. This will allow you to fire, for instance, a 32 auto round in a 308 or 22 mag in a 223.
www.mcace.com
Regards,
John Pickett

Take-a-knee
2007-05-18, 14:56
I've never tried a sub-caliber insert because I've read that getting the thing stuck in the chamber is a real possibility. It also takes time to change it out, a passing grouse may not wait on you to fumble with it. You are also stuck again with a factory load that probably won't register with your sights. Reduced power reloads can reduce or eliminate that likelyhood. With reduced loads in a butt cuff it is a simple matter to change the round in the chamber and collect supper.

TeeDee
2007-05-18, 17:30
TeeDee, your Father left you a far superior handgun too a Luger, take that Python out and SHOOT IT! I don't like the grip on a Luger, it works okay for an FBI-one hand/Bullseye stance. With a combat stance (isoceles) most people point the muzzle down naturally. I do this with a Glock, which is why I sanded the grip down to match the grip angle on a 1911, John Moses Browning was a true genius.

TAK - you're totally correct - when I heft the Python, it feels good. But, I don't know, there's just something about the way the Lugar looks. At least to me. Given a choice I would prefer both, then hang the Lugar on the wall to look at it. If it had to be one or the other, then, I agree with you and Iceman, it would have to be the Python. Probably why Dad sold the Lugar. The fact that he even had the Python was a surprise to me. I knew he kept a small revolver in his bedside table. Didn't even know he had the Python until it showed up in the mail one day.

I called him to thank him, he was in the middle of something and had to get off the phone, said he was having trouble with AIDS and would call me the next day and hung up. Oh my God, what the H*** happened. Did he get a bad blood transfusion. All kinds of things were going through my mind. Didn't get much sleep that night. When he called the next day, I asked what was going on, where did he get AIDS and ..... He laughed so hard it took him a while to answer and said that he has having trouble with his aids, hearing aids that is. One in each ear. He thought it was hilarious. So did I once I knew he was okay. I've been laughing about that one ever since. :biggrin:

Geo.
2007-05-18, 18:10
Geo, what type of salamis are you talking about? Once opened, are you having to focus on them as your food source to avoid spoilage, or are you finding no spoilage for many days, even after exposure to oxygen? I have usually had concerns once they are opened up...

On one trip I selected a dryer salami to reduce the moisture to protein ratio, less fear of microbial spoilage.... Italian Dry salami... I read somewhere less water content.....less risk for spoilage.

Hi Iceman,
The salami I use is tube shaped (not pre sliced) about 9"x2" diam, fairly dry, though not especially so. Has a sort of inedible thin layer covering it. Just cut a slice off the end and peel away the 'layer' around the edge.
I've carried the stuff for a couple of weeks and it was still ok - Probably because it's only the end that is exposed at any time and also because it's got a load of preservatives in it that I don't want to know about.
I favour the chili (hot) salami. I think the fat content of salami is good for energy and calories too. (Never eat the stuff when I'm at home, but it's a luxury when on the move!) Slice or two a day (depending on rationing) is usually my lunch along with some dry crackers or a slice or two of bread.
I find I can make a packet of sliced bread last longer and also take up less pack space by taking the loaf and compressing the slices very firmly together till they're like one small lump. Then I just peel off a slice when needed. I think the compressing limits the oxygen that can get at it, so it lasts longer.
(Doesn't look too pretty though) ;)

Iceman
2007-05-19, 01:06
Probably alot of truth to the cut end, the only edge risking spoilage, and as you eat away, the risk is eliminated.... We live in such a different world today than in the not too distant past. My dad grew up in the Dakotas, where they had no refrigeration and salted and hung all their meat in the rafters of their home. Want meat later?, just cut some off, soak it for a day or two to rehydrate it, rinse it and cook away...... We take the salami when we snowcamp, since they do not freeze rock hard with the high fat content, you can always slice off a chunk when well below freezing.

JAK
2007-05-20, 16:19
My Aunt told me about this restaraunt up in Perth Andover that was famous for its meat. This was years ago and they hung their own meat out back. My grandfather would always go out back to select a good cut, but he wouldn't let my Aunt go. "You don't want to go back there", is all he would say, so she never did. They never got sick though, and it was the best meat. Different world today though.

JCW
2007-05-20, 17:40
When I was a kid, some 40 odd years ago we always went on camping/foraging trips with my Grand Dad or an Uncle. There were always one or two firearms along. One was a shotgun and the other, If my Grand Dad went along was an old Colt single action in 44-40 which he packed. If we did kill game it was always rabbit or rarely squirrel. Mostly we fished and foraged for plants. We carried basic food items with us. Rice, jerky, slab bacon, flour, dried fruit that sort of thing.

Amigi
2007-05-22, 03:05
I've been thinking about this 40 days with resupply as I'll hopefully be doing the Florida National Scenic Trail this winter. Down here, damn near everything is edible: palms, cactus, oak trees, berries, wildflowers... Game is aplenty of course and hikers may carry firearms if you have your CWP, or when you pay your fee you can get permission to carry a shotgun. I dont plan I doing any of that, but the option is there.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-22, 15:46
TeeDee, your Father left you a far superior handgun too a Luger, take that Python out and SHOOT IT! I don't like the grip on a Luger, it works okay for an FBI-one hand/Bullseye stance. With a combat stance (isoceles) most people point the muzzle down naturally. I do this with a Glock, which is why I sanded the grip down to match the grip angle on a 1911, John Moses Browning was a true genius.

1911 rocks, my favorite firearm.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-22, 15:50
I find I can make a packet of sliced bread last longer and also take up less pack space by taking the loaf and compressing the slices very firmly together till they're like one small lump. Then I just peel off a slice when needed. I think the compressing limits the oxygen that can get at it, so it lasts longer.
(Doesn't look too pretty though) ;)

Ever just carried high protein hard tack? I have a lot of recipes. Stuff will last your lifetime and mine if you don't store it under water.

Geo.
2007-05-22, 18:27
Never carried hard tack as such, but I usually carry a pack or two of a vegetable oil cracker we get here. Replaces the bread when that runs out and is good for boiling up with the main meal to add a bit of bulk too.
Be interested in seeing your favourite hard tack recipe though.

Amigi
2007-05-23, 13:46
What is hard tack?

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-23, 16:57
What is hard tack?

It is a rock hard type of cracker made for sailors and common during the civil war. Flour/wheat/grain/etc. Dry, hard to eat, high calorie, light, and this day and age, you can make it high protein/vitamin packed. And it lasts forever as long as you don't submerge it in water for more then a few months at a time.

Amigi
2007-05-23, 20:23
It is a rock hard type of cracker made for sailors and common during the civil war. Flour/wheat/grain/etc. Dry, hard to eat, high calorie, light, and this day and age, you can make it high protein/vitamin packed. And it lasts forever as long as you don't submerge it in water for more then a few months at a time.

Thanks man. Interesting article on Wiki. The insect thing was a bit disturbing. puke:

dropkick
2007-05-24, 00:51
Instead of hardtack you ever try any frybreads?
Easy to make and in my estimation much more satisfying.

Basic mix can be as simple as flour and water plus the oil to fry it in.
Biscuit mix also works good.

I like a basic flour tortilla mix: 1C flour, 1/2 tsp salt, 1 T baking powder, mix with enough water to moisten, pat out into several tortilla, fry.
Really good with cinnamon sugar sprinkled on it also.

Iceman
2007-05-24, 10:16
We will be trying some el cheapo' Wallmart pizza crust mix over the fire at our Memorial Weekend campsite this weekend. I have mixed a bunch of spices into the dry powder mix already, just add water to the bag and put the kids in charge of toasting the dough on sticks....

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-24, 14:14
Under Hard Bread

Should be made of best quality of superfine, or what is usually known as extra superfine flour; or better, of extra and extra superfine, (half and half). Hard bread should be white, crisp, light and exhibit a flaky appearance when broken. If tough, solid and compact, is evident the fault is either in the stock, manufacture or baking; it should not present the appearance of dried paste. If tough and pasty, it is probably manufacture from grown wheat, or Spring wheat of an inferior kind. In all cases it should be thoroughly cooled and dried before packing. Kiln drying, where practicable, for long voyages, is particularly desirable; but if really and thoroughly dried in the oven, hard bread will keep just as well and its flavor is not destroyed. To make good hard bread, it is essential to employ steam; hand work will not do.

The dough should be mixed as dry as possible; this is, in fact, very essential, and too much stress can not be placed on it. Good stock, dry mixed, and thoroughly baked, (not dried or scalded) will necessarily give good hard bread. If salt is to be used, it should be mixed with the water used to mix the dough. Both salt and water should be clean. Bread put up with the preceding requirements should keep a year; but as a usual thing, our best bread as now made for army use, will keep only about three months. Good, bread, packed closely and compactly should not weigh, net, per barrel, more than 70 or 80 pounds; should it be heavier that 80 it indicates too much moisture. The thickness of the biscuit is important; it should not be so thick as to prevent proper drying, or so thin as to crumble in transportation. The quality of stock used for hard bread can be partially told by rules mentioned in the article 'Flour,' as far as they apply. The term 'sprung' is frequently used by bakers, by which is meant raised or flaky bread, indicating strong flour and sound stock. The cupidity of the contracting baker induces him to pack his bread as soon as it comes out of the oven, and before the moisture has been completely expelled by drying. Bread of this kind hangs on breaking; it will also be soft to the pressure of the finger nail when broken, whereas it should be crisp and brittle.

The packages should be thoroughly seasoned, (of wood imparting no taste or odor to the bread,) and reasonably tight. The usual method now adopted is to pack 50 pounds net, in basswood boxes, (sides, top and bottom 1/2 inch, ends 5/8 of an inch,) and of dimensions corresponding with the cutters used, and strapped at each end with light iron or wood. The bread should be packed on its edge compactly, so as not to shake.
Bread thoroughly baked, kiln dried, and packed in spirit casks, will keep a long time but it is an expensive method. If bread contains weevils, or is mouldy, expose to the sun on paulins, and before re-packing it, rinse the barrel with whiskey.

Other Traditional Recipes

Army Hardtack Recipe

Ingredients:
4 cups flour (perferably whole wheat)
4 teaspoons salt
Water (about 2 cups)
Pre-heat oven to 375 F
Makes about 10 pieces
Mix the flour and salt together in a bowl. Add just enough water (less than two cups) so that the mixture will stick together, producing a dough that wont stick to hands, rolling pin or pan. Mix the dough by hand. Roll the dough out, shaping it roughly into a rectangle. Cut into the dough into squares about 3 x 3 inches and inch thick.

After cutting the squares, press a pattern of four rows of four holes into each square, using a nail or other such object. Do not punch through the dough. The appearance you want is similar to that of a modern saltine cracker. Turn each square over and do the same thing to the other side.
Place the squares on an ungreased cookie sheet in the oven and bake for 30 minutes. Turn each piece over and bake for another 30 minutes. The crackers should be slightly brown on both sides.

The fresh crackers are easily broken but as they dry, they harden and assume the consistentency of fired brick.

Swedish Hardtack
1 cup water
3 tbsp. vegetable oil
3 tbsp. honey
3 cups rye flour (or 1 1/2 cups rye & 1 1/2 cups whole wheat flour)
1 1/2 tbsp. brewer's yeast (optional)
1/4 tsp. salt
Mix liquids together. In a separate bowl, mix dry ingredients. Combine the mixtures, stirring to moisten throughout. Form a ball. On a floured surface, flatten the dough, and roll out thinly. Cut into squares and prick each cracker with the tines of a fork a couple of times. Transfer to lightly greased baking sheets. Bake at 425 F for around 8 minutes, checking to be sure not to over-brown. It is best served warm.

Simple Recipes

Flour, water, and a little salt. Mix them together to form an elastic but not sticky dough, Roll to a one-inch thickness, bake in a 400 F oven until slightly brown. Allow to cool. It may yet be soft. Put it in 200 F oven until it is hard. Prick with nail or sharp instrument. No baking powder, soda, sugar, cinnamon, raisins, or anything else.

Just mix about 2 cups of flour and a half-tablespoon of salt with enough water to make a stiff dough. Roll it out thin on a cookie sheet. Score it into squares of about 2x2 and poke some holes in it (not all the way through). Bake it at 400 F for about 45 minutes or until it is lightly browned. Let it cool in the oven.


Preheat oven to 400 F. For each cup of flour (unbleached wheat), add1 tsp. of salt. Mix salt and flour with just enough water to bind ingredients. Roll the dough about 1/4 inch thick, and cut into squares 3 inches by 3 inches. Pierce each square with 16 holes about inch apart. Place hardtack squares on cookie sheet and bake in oven until the edges are brown or the dough is hard (20-25 minutes), making sure all moisture is removed from mixture before taking out of oven. Note: The longer you bake the hardtack, the more authentic it will appear. If you want to make it softer for eating, bake only about fifteen minutes.


Mix: two cups of all-purpose flour and a half teaspoon of salt. Use more salt for authenticity. Mix by hand. Add a teaspoon of shortening and a half cup of water, stirred in a little at a time to form a very stiff dough. Beat the dough to a half inch thickness with a clean top mallet or rifle butt. Fold the sheet of dough into six layers. Continue to beat and to fold the dough a half dozen times until it is elastic. Roll the dough out to a half-inch thickness before cutting it with a floured biscuit cutteror bayonet. Bake for about a half hour in a 325 F oven.


The basic ingredients are flour, salt and water. General directions are also similar: Dissolve the salt in water and work it into flour using your hands. The dough should be firm and pliable but not sticky or dry. Flatten the dough onto a cookie sheet to about 1/4 inch thick, and cut into squares 3 inches by 3 inches. Pierce each square with 16 holes about inch apart. Bake in oven until edges are brown or dough is hard.


Preheat the oven to 400 F For each cup of flour add 1 teaspoon of salt. Mix salt and flour with just enough water to bind. Bake 20-25 minutes. The longer you bake the hardtack, the more authentic it will appear.


Use one part water to six parts flour. Mix in salt. Roll the dough flat and score into cracker shapes. Bake for 20-25 minutes at 400 F and let it cool until completely dry before storing in canisters. The crackers should be hard as bricks and indestructibly unappetizing.
A cup of water
2 cups of flour
6 pinches of salt
Mix flour, water, and salt into a stiff dough, kneading it several times. Spread dough inch thick onto baking sheet and slice into 3 1/2 by 3 1/2 inch squares. Poke holes in dough, four lines of four holes across and four down. Bake for hour at 400. F. Remove from the oven, cut the dough into 3 inch squares. Turn dough over, return it to the oven, and bake for another hour. Turn the oven off, leaving the oven door closed. Leave the hardtack in the oven until it is cool.

Less Traditional Recipes

2 c Flower
1/2 tb Salt (optional)
1/2 tb Sugar (optional)
1/2 c Water
Mix together in an electric blender at medium speed until it has the consistency of playdough. Roll it out with a rolling pin to about 1/3" or so, the thinner the crisper, then cut it into 3 x 3 inch squares. I use the barrel of a ball point pen to punch 16 holes (4 x 4) in each square. Bake at 375 F on the first side for 20-25 minutes or until it turns a light brown color, then turn them over and bake for another 15-20 minutes.

Small Batch, Just for a taste.
2 1/2 cups flour
1/2 tablespoon baking powder
1/2 tablespoon salt
1/2- 3/4 cup water
Mix to a stiff dry dough. It should not stick to your hands. Add water slowly. Add more flour if needed. Cut to 3x3 inch squares 1/4" to 1/2" thick. Now put 16 little holes in each one, using a 10 d nail or some other such thing. Toothpick are too small. Bake in an ungreased cookie pan, preheated to 400 F for about 20 to 30 minutes on each side, or until dry. Check it every now and then.

1/8 teaspoon baking soda
3 tablespoons buttermilk
1 cup flour
4 teaspoons real maple syrup
3/8 teaspoons salt
1-1/2 tablespoons shortening
Preheat oven to 425 F. Mix the soda and buttermilk, then set aside. Combine flour, syrup, and salt. Cut in the shortening. Add the buttermilk mixture. Roll out very thin and score rectangles in the dough without cutting all the way through. Prick each rectangle several times with a fork. Bake on an ungreased cookie sheet for 5-10 minutes or until golden brown.
2 cups of flour

3/4 to 1 cup water
1 tbl spoon of Crisco
6 pinches of salt
Mix the ingredients together to form a stiff batter, kneading several times. Spread the dough onto a baking sheet at a thickness of 1/2 inch. Bake for a half hour at 400 F. Remove from oven, cut dough into 3-inch squares, and punch four rows of holes, four holes per row into the dough. Turn dough over, return to the oven and bake another half hour. Turn oven off, leaving door closed. Leave the hardtack in the oven until cool.

3 cups all-purpose flour
1 cup whole wheat flour
1/2 cup yellow cornmeal
1/2` cup cracked wheat
1 tablespoon sugar
1 tablespoon salt
1 1/2 cups buttermilk
Combine the flours, cornmeal, wheat, sugar and salt. Add buttermilk, mix well, and knead briefly. Shape dough into golf-ball-sized portions. Dust with flour and roll very thin. Place on greased and floured baking sheet. Bake at 400 F turning several times, until lightly browned on both sides. Cool; then store in waterproof container.

2 Level teaspoons baking powder
1 pinch of salt
1 1/2 cup flour
2 cups sugar
4 eggs, well beaten
1 jelly glass of orange marmalade
1 lb Finely chopped walnuts
1 lb Finely chopped dates
Sift ingredients together. Add the remainder of ingredients; mix well. Bake about an inch thick on a cookie sheet in an oven at 375 F for about 45 minutes. Cut into squares while warm.

2 cups of flour
1 cup water
1 tablespoon of Crisco or vegetable fat.
6 pinches of salt
Bake for 30 minutes at 400 F. Remove the dough from the oven, and cut it into 3-inch squares. Punch four rows of holes into the dough. Turn the dough over, return it to the oven and bake for another 30 minutes.

A Sailor's Diet
2 1/2 cups old-fashioned or quick oats.
3 cups unbleached flour.
1 1/2 teaspoons salt.
1 teaspoon baking soda.
In a separate container, mix:
1 1/2 cups buttermilk.
3 tablespoons honey.
1/2 cup melted bacon drippings or shortening.
Combine the two sets of ingredients. When the dough is thoroughly mixed, roll it out on a floured board to a thickness of about a quarter inch. Cut out circles of dough with a large drinking glass dipped in flour and put them on a lightly greased cookie sheet. Bake for about 5 1/2 minutes at 450 F. Let the hardtack cool on a wire rack before serving with jam or jelly.

Redleg
2007-05-24, 16:11
I am making some of the bread tonight.
Could you copy the recepies to the cooking thread please?
jaf

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-25, 13:11
Guns guns guns ...

I dug up a few friends that had the Henry (AR 7) and they said it was chincy. I'm going to go find one and fire it myself. I was sent a link to here (http://www.tacticalsol.com/homefast.htm) didn't have time to check it out yet though.

Guns guns guns!!!

Iceman
2007-06-05, 01:12
We will be trying some el cheapo' Wallmart pizza crust mix over the fire at our Memorial Weekend campsite this weekend. I have mixed a bunch of spices into the dry powder mix already, just add water to the bag and put the kids in charge of toasting the dough on sticks....


Tried this at camp. Didn't work. Had to resort to the frypan. The dough was way to thin. As it warmed, it became too thin and wanted to drop off the stick. No fun for kids.

Bisquits tasted good, mixed some garlic and herb plus some italian seasoning in the dry mix at home, and then some wet sourdough starter culture into the drymix at camp an hour before cooking-yum!

BDawg
2007-06-05, 19:37
I may have have missed it but has anyone said anything about find food on the ground?

I spent 52 days in So America without resupply on a missions trip. The locals would find stuff all over the place and never once touch a gun or a store for that matter. I learned that aside from water purafication really the only thing i needed was a good knife, basic shelter, fire starter and some damn good knowlege of the food around me.

Depending on the time of year and location, theres stuff to eat all around us.
For instance, Arizona Desert local edable Flora/Fauna(grasshoppers, Scorps, Cacti, onion, Yucca, ants, bees ect..)
Mid west(grubs, earthworms, grasshoppers, bees, ants, wild potato, berries of all kind) you get the picture.

heres some good info and how to's....

http://www.wilderness-survival-skills.com/survivalfood.html

oops56
2007-06-05, 20:25
Yes it almost sounds good but where do you get your ice cream

CoyoteWhips
2007-06-11, 09:54
From What the World Eats (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1626519_1373680,00.html).

http://www.coyotewhips.com/photos/survival.jpg

In some ways, this family seems like the modern experts on survival in the harshest of conditions.

Hi, I'm Dave.

Iceman
2007-06-13, 00:10
Hi CoyoteWhips (dave), nice to meet ya'. Actually your photo looks like a post card for Unicef or the UN or something, smiling family sitting in a camp somewhere receiving their allocation of dried beans, other grains and water..... Without a doubt, these folks have been handed a crappy deal, but they need to get the hell away from these places, IMHO.

Take-a-knee
2007-06-13, 00:35
Ice, you are a very astute, as usual. I had to deal with NGO's handing out bulk food in Haiti. It gets handed out to the "main thug", he then uses the food our contributions/tax dollars paid for to curry favor...or punish, whomever he chooses. That is, if it doesn't get eaten by rats in a warehouse before it gets distributed. We just started cutting the damned locks off the containers, loading the shit in the truck, and hauling it to missionaries we knew would feed the kids. That was one of the few times I was proud to be a Guardsman, we knew they didn't want to start any crap with us 'cause the publicity would have been ugly for the Big Army.