PDA

View Full Version : Weapons!



Rhino-lfl
2007-05-04, 11:02
Ok, so I've been dorking around the web for a while looking for some info on throwing sticks, Apache throwing stars, and atlatls. I've successfully been able to make a decent atlatl that is fair and accurate, but I can't find too much on the throwing sticks or Apache throwing stars. I know with the throwing sticks there is a way to make air foils and other carvings in it that helps with accuracy and power. With the Apache throwing star, it looks simple to make, but I'd like to see some more design options for it.

Now I've found a bunch of different sites (well 2 or 3) that sell books and videos on this subject and that is fine. But I'm not looking to buy anything or spend much money, I'm sort of hoping to find something or someone who is interested in this stuff but doesn't charge you $29.95 :)

Have any of you guys tinkered with this stuff? I know it doesn't beat a 9mm or Steyr AUG for home defense, but it could be fun in the woods going for bird, varmints, etc.

Thanks

dropkick
2007-05-04, 17:31
The throwing stick was normally just a bent stick.
Though a boomerang or a version of one is also a throwing stick.
As you move more into boomerangs you want a flater piece of wood with one side rounded and the other flat.

oldsoldier
2007-05-04, 19:16
I JUST read an article somewhere (maybe field & stream?) about this odd rabbit/squirrel/bird, ah, star. Essentially, it was two sticks, about 2' long, sharpened on both ends, notched in the middle, and fastened together in an X. the sticks they demonstrate with are fairly stout...again, I'm fairly sure I read it in field & stream.

JAK
2007-05-04, 19:44
It's amazing how much of a difference that extra long lever makes with the atlatl, or a sling, or even just a throwing stick. You got me curious about what makes a good throwing stick so I thought I'd take a quick boo:

http://hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/exhibitions/ncc/gallery_1_2_1_2.html

I have seen straight ones also. The great thing about these is they are pretty easy to make. Ironwood would be a good choice, traditionally used for tool handles and even engine mounts. The local ironwood here in New Brunswick is the hop hornbeam. It has a density more than 50 lbs/ft3. A stick 30" long and 2" diameter would be a hefty 3 pounds. 24" x 1.5" would be 1.5 pounds and still do a lot of damage. I have heard you through it sort of sidearm and it is effective against rabbits and partridge. Squirrels might be tricky. Just about any of the heavier hardwoods would do of course. There are some species as dense as 80 lbs/ft3.

http://cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/subsite/mx-212/ironwood
http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/woods.htm

TeeDee
2007-05-06, 18:01
Ironwood - that stuff is really hard. Back in 1950, I was up in the Idaho Rockies, about 1/2 day from home, with my Dad. He decided for some reason he wanted a piece of Ironwood while we were there. We took a small hand saw and ax and started walking. Finally saw a small tree, about 3' high. We figured anything that small wouldn't be too big a loss to the forest and would be easy it cut down. Really scrawny. I sat back and watched. Figured Dad would have that thing down in a few minutes at the most. The ax simply bounced off the trunk. So Dad started sawing near the ground. We took turns, he did most of the work and it took us over an hour to saw through that trunk. Dad took the big section of the trunk, about 20" long home and oiled it dark brown. Had to use a wood rasp on it, sandpaper didn't even scratch the surface. I still have it. 1 7/16" diameter, slightly crooked. Very heavy for the size. I tried counting the rings - too many and way to thin. I am still amazed - over an hour to saw through less than 2" of wood.

That scrawny thin tree was way older than everybody in the family combined and then a lot more. That is humbling.

Using it as a survival weapon - great, but I don't think anybody would have anything on hand that would be able to cut the wood. Great survival tactic for the tree though.

sailingsoul
2007-05-06, 18:54
I JUST read an article somewhere (maybe field & stream?) about this odd rabbit/squirrel/bird, ah, star. Essentially, it was two sticks, about 2' long, sharpened on both ends, notched in the middle, and fastened together in an X. the sticks they demonstrate with are fairly stout...again, I'm fairly sure I read it in field & stream. I am familiar with the the throwing "star" your thinking of, Oldsoldier. There is another web site that has a write up of what is referred to as " The Caveman's Throwing Star". Under a section titled "Primitive Hunting and Snaring for Survival" The Author is definitely not a "Tree hugger" and tries his best to give good advice toward "Survival". No forum there! I hope those interested will find this link educational, I have......:biggrin: SS:captain:
http://www.m4040.com/Survival/Skills/Hunting%20and%20Snaring/Weapons/Caveman%20Throwing%20Star.htm

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-07, 10:39
I JUST read an article somewhere (maybe field & stream?) about this odd rabbit/squirrel/bird, ah, star. Essentially, it was two sticks, about 2' long, sharpened on both ends, notched in the middle, and fastened together in an X. the sticks they demonstrate with are fairly stout...again, I'm fairly sure I read it in field & stream.

Ya, that's the Apache thowing star or caveman throwing star. If you smooth it down with pieces of wood about as thick as a broomstick, it is actually pretty accurate. That is the only design I have found though.


It's amazing how much of a difference that extra long lever makes with the atlatl, or a sling, or even just a throwing stick. You got me curious about what makes a good throwing stick so I thought I'd take a quick boo:

http://hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/exhibitions/ncc/gallery_1_2_1_2.html

I have seen straight ones also. The great thing about these is they are pretty easy to make. Ironwood would be a good choice, traditionally used for tool handles and even engine mounts. The local ironwood here in New Brunswick is the hop hornbeam. It has a density more than 50 lbs/ft3. A stick 30" long and 2" diameter would be a hefty 3 pounds. 24" x 1.5" would be 1.5 pounds and still do a lot of damage. I have heard you through it sort of sidearm and it is effective against rabbits and partridge. Squirrels might be tricky. Just about any of the heavier hardwoods would do of course. There are some species as dense as 80 lbs/ft3.

http://cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/subsite/mx-212/ironwood
http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/woods.htm

I've had good luck with just a straight stick of oak about as thick as my wrist and widdled smooth and slightly flat. Thowing it sidearm is much more accurate then overhand or like a frisby, and you can get a lot of power behind it. I've heard sticks made with an airfoil (I have not idea how to do this, there are videos but I don't want to invest in them) can go straight over 100 yards.


I am familiar with the the throwing "star" your thinking of, Oldsoldier. There is another web site that has a write up of what is referred to as " The Caveman's Throwing Star". Under a section titled "Primitive Hunting and Snaring for Survival" The Author is definitely not a "Tree hugger" and tries his best to give good advice toward "Survival". No forum there! I hope those interested will find this link educational, I have......:biggrin: SS:captain:
http://www.m4040.com/Survival/Skills/Hunting%20and%20Snaring/Weapons/Caveman%20Throwing%20Star.htm

They guy that runs the site is pretty cool, he lives near me and does the straight dope on survival. He definitely isn't a shrub lover.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-07, 10:52
It's amazing how much of a difference that extra long lever makes with the atlatl, or a sling, or even just a throwing stick. ...


These I have been making for a while. The lever is usually 2-3' and the javlin around 4-5'. The longer the lever, the greater the mechanical advantage and the more power you will generate, but it becomes harder to throw and tends to get away from you. I have burried a oak javlin through a stack of hay from 60'. I still need to refine the javlin though and make them more arrow like, I get too much wobble and the knotch tends to drop in flight.

dropkick
2007-05-08, 00:06
I don't think that spears have ever been very accurate at much of a distance. I've seen old films of African natives using them in both hunting and war, and a good hit over 10 yards away involved about as much luck as skill.
They wobbled all over the place in the air.

The skill is mainly in getting close enough to use them.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-08, 09:13
I don't think that spears have ever been very accurate at much of a distance. I've seen old films of African natives using them in both hunting and war, and a good hit over 10 yards away involved about as much luck as skill.
They wobbled all over the place in the air.

The skill is mainly in getting close enough to use them.

That isn't true for the Aborigines, with the atlatl, they were capable of hurling darts over 100m with great accuracy.

Take-a-knee
2007-05-08, 10:04
One hundred yards is a reasonably long offhand shot with a rifle, a decent shooter can hold about 8 MOA offhand, about the size of a deer's vital zone. So I am to believe that there are/were those who could do the same with a "spear-chunking device"...sure.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-08, 13:33
One hundred yards is a reasonably long offhand shot with a rifle, a decent shooter can hold about 8 MOA offhand, about the size of a deer's vital zone. So I am to believe that there are/were those who could do the same with a "spear-chunking device"...sure.

I'm sure you're ugly, but you aren't an Aborigine and don't have thousands of years cultural experience using the weapon. I'm sure it's nice to have such a high opinion of yourself though, I'd bet that if you can't do it, no one can :)

Make google your friend today and look it up.

Take-a-knee
2007-05-08, 14:03
Yes Rhino, I'm homely, stupid, and I can't run or do pullups, that is how I survived in SF for so long. I also don't have access to "thousands of years of cultural experience" like some. I do, however, have a functioning bullshit detector, as do others here.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-08, 14:20
I'm sure it doubles as a egotist detector and always points towards you.

TeeDee
2007-05-08, 21:37
Well - I think I would have to come down on the side of Rhino-lfl here, or rather the atlatl maybe :biggrin: . After reading up on what an atlatl is and having watched people with bows/arrows hit targets, it seems entirely reasonable to me that an experienced atlatl thrower could hit a target accurately at 100m.

The following quotes are even more convincing:


WARNING! Atlatls or spearthrowers are LETHAL weapons. They are not toys. They were used to kill ancient bison and mammoth and were the weapon most feared by Spanish Conquistadors in South America because they are armor piercing. They will make your arm effectively 2 times stronger. The distance and force of a thrown spear will be 2 times greater than without it. The beginner will not have much control over where the spear lands and it will probably go further and have more force than expected. I threw one for the first time and accidentally put a hole in my garage door, not expecting it to fly as far or with as much force as it did. One local archaeologist accidentally put a spear through a metal 55 gallon drum the first time that she threw one. Do not use it with less respect than a bow and arrow or a gun. Atlatls are used to hunt deer in Minnesota and are sold in some archery stores. An atlatl will initially be much less accurate than either a gun or a bow and arrow. Use in a wide open area with nothing and no one that you do not want to accidentally kill. Use only with adult supervision. Build and use at your own risk.

and


An atlatl , which is shaped like a large 2 foot long crocheting needle, is grasped in the throwing hand with the hook placed in the end of a spear or dart. The index finger and thumb grasp the spear which lies on top of the atlatl. The last three fingers of the hand grasp the atlatl. The spear is thrown overhand just like throwing a baseball.

With practice some people can regularly hit a 4 inch square target at 120 feet. A spear thrown for distance can increase that by many times. The current world champion atlatl distance thrower lives in Bloomington Minnesota. There is a national atlatl organization that holds throwing competitions. Their motto is "I will hunt mammoth alone no longer." If you ever use an atlatl use CAUTION and BE CAREFUL. Like javelins, archery, or guns, accidents do happen with atlatls.

Also, you have to consider that the art of shooting a rifle and the art of throwing an atlatl are totally different. I'm not much of a baseball fan, but I believe that it has been known for outfielders to have actually thrown a baseball from center field directly to the catcher standing at home plate, such that the catcher didn't even have to move to catch the ball. If a practiced person can achieve that kind of accuracy with a baseball, it is reasonable to understand how someone proficient with an atlatl could achieve equal accuracy. It is a matter of eye-arm coordination with the atlatl. With a rifle the coordination aspect is important, but not as important as the ability to hold the rifle steady with as little wavering as possible.

They seem to me like entirely different skills. Trying to determine the accuracy of one based on a skill with the other can be extremely misleading.

Iceman
2007-05-09, 00:02
I am with Take-a knee, my BS alarm is deafening.

Wikipedia: While the atlatl is capable of casting a dart well over 100 meters it is most accurately used at distances of 20 meters or less.

First off, show me one atlatl freak who can consistently hit anything with this device at 50 yards, and I will be impressed. Distance does not mean accuracy. Rhino says: ...the Aborigines, with the atlatl, they were capable of hurling darts over 100m with great accuracy. I would like to know what you mean by "accurate".

60 feet is not 300 feet. Throwing a round evenly weighted baseball, and flicking a stick 100 yards are two completely different things.

I am not convinced by a warning about an atlcanthithebroadsideofabarnatl. Marshmallows have warnings on them, as do Nerf toys, beanbag chairs and cheeze whiz.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-09, 09:13
You see take-a-poop, google and brains are you friend :)

Oh and just in case you didn't get this, I didn't say I could do it, best I can do it hit a tree from 30ft. Just like the best I can do with a rifle is hit a tree from 30ft lol. But I bet if my entire family had been using and perfecting atlatls for 25 generations and I had been using one myself with training from all my family and elders starting when I could walk and for all my adult life ... you'd still be better than me cause ignorance is bliss :)

Iceman
2007-05-09, 10:05
Rhino, I don't remember saying that you could use the device so effectively. My question is an effort to clarify your quote. I posed; What do you (Rhino-this means you) mean by accurate?

Accuracy is what we are all disputing here. Atlatl freaks can most probably hurl a projectile repeatedly over 100 yards. Neato! Please explain or show to me what precicely you mean when you indicate the word "accurate".

For example, lets say I called you a propogandist, I would back up my statement with a clear definition of the root word in that case, propoganda. In this example I will cite for you the definition of the word I have used, so that you better understand what I am trying to convey. See how this works?

Propaganda is a type of message aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people. Often, instead of impartially providing information, propaganda can be deliberately misleading, or use fallacies, which, while sometimes convincing, are not necessarily valid.


Please clarify what you mean by accurate, and I am sure we will have less of a dispute. Folks here like a good arguement, as long as it is "relatively" civil, and quality information is shared.

TeeDee
2007-05-09, 11:12
Iceman - I prefer to take a person at their word - now if you would reread the quote in my post:


With practice some people can regularly hit a 4 inch square target at 120 feet.

I prefer to take a person at his word. If you decide that the person who wrote that is full of BS, then that is your choice. In that case, there is really nothing further to discuss since there are two different belief systems at work and two completely different life choices. It then no longer comes down to what a person with an atlatl can do after much practice and training, but what a person decides to believe. I have decided to believe people initially until they prove they are not worthy of that trust. Some people take the opposite tack and choose to totally disbelieve everything a person says/writes until they prove they can be trusted. Totally different life views and choices. Such diametrically opposite views on life will never be bridged by discussion or persuasion. The best the two persons can do is tacitly agree to totally disagree.

I still think I would like you when we met though :biggrin: - same with Take-a-Knee :biggrin:

incognito
2007-05-09, 14:10
Bullshit - Rhino shit - no difference!!!!!!

The only Good Rhino is a Dead Rhino!!!!! Where have I heard that before?----:aetsch:---- :bootyshak

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-09, 14:59
Iceman - I prefer to take a person at their word - now if you would reread the quote in my post:



I prefer to take a person at his word. If you decide that the person who wrote that is full of BS, then that is your choice. In that case, there is really nothing further to discuss since there are two different belief systems at work and two completely different life choices. It then no longer comes down to what a person with an atlatl can do after much practice and training, but what a person decides to believe. I have decided to believe people initially until they prove they are not worthy of that trust. Some people take the opposite tack and choose to totally disbelieve everything a person says/writes until they prove they can be trusted. Totally different life views and choices. Such diametrically opposite views on life will never be bridged by discussion or persuasion. The best the two persons can do is tacitly agree to totally disagree.

I still think I would like you when we met though :biggrin: - same with Take-a-Knee :biggrin:


Damn straight, I'm not going to step out of my way to prove everyword of everything you can read about thsi shit that I never wrote. Just because some of you are asses and need proof that the world is round, is no call for me having to prove it to you. If you don't like it, google it and prooove me wrong, and then screw off.

Narrow minded limp dicked old men, damn democrat.

TeeDee
2007-05-09, 18:31
Damn straight, I'm not going to step out of my way to prove everyword of everything you can read about thsi shit that I never wrote. Just because some of you are asses and need proof that the world is round, is no call for me having to prove it to you. If you don't like it, google it and prooove me wrong, and then screw off.

Narrow minded limp dicked old men, damn democrat.

Rhino-lfl - I don't think your attitude is doing you or anyone else any good. If you could keep a little more civility in your posts and avoid the personal attacks (even when you are attacked personally), I think people would take you a little more seriously.

That is if you want to be taken seriously.

Of course if you're real aim is simply to piss people off, then you are doing just great.

Take-A-Knee once referred me to an anger management tape/course/whatever. It might be appropriate for you also.

sailingsoul
2007-05-09, 20:54
May I venture to suggest that offering ideas and responses through a forum, in typed form, is different than exchanging comments face to face. There are many subtleties communicated when a conversation occurs in person. Things like voice inflection plus hand and face movements. These make a big difference in how the words are interpreted compared to being read. I myself posted a response that was not received in a manner I had intended. I felt this was the case because of the next response was a response directed harshly at me, instead of at what I posted. I feel I did all of us a favor by just letting it go. I remembered the good advice that goes something like "No one know how stupid you are until you open your mouth and tell them, removing all doubt." Lastly if we can't form in a way the would make our mother's proud than do it out of respect to SGT ROCK and his site. We are after all his guests. :beer: SS:captain:

Turk
2007-05-09, 21:49
Man, having just jumped to this thread and having read it all the way through.

I am left thinking wtf?

Cut it out before we hit you with something. Personal attacks and cat calls belong on some other trash hiking forum.

Big nod of agreement for all the wise and very sane comments from Obi-wan-Teedee and Sailingsoul.
Good show.
Anyhoo Im off to the wilderness for a week of contemplation and kayaking.

Hope this thread is dead or back on topic when I get back.
farewell

Iceman
2007-05-09, 23:08
Rhino, I take your challenge. See below to read how I have proven you wrong. [Or swear, cuss and jump up and down and call me a whole plethora (get your dictionary, look it up) of names, as you realize you were wrong.] Normally I would say I am sorry to prove you wrong. Not this time.

The topic here is the statement by Rhino which claims that the atlatl is accurate out to 100meters, in the hands of aborigines. Rhino stated:That isn't true for the Aborigines, with the atlatl, they were capable of hurling darts over 100m with great accuracy. Since he will not define what he means by the term "accurate", I will select a common definition. Answers.com and The Free Dictionary both concur and describe the term "accurate" as..conforming exactly to fact, errorless, deviating only slightly or within acceptable limits from a standard.... For the purpose of my arguement, I would argue that since we were originally talking about hitting game or adversaries with the device, lets pick a size target which one must hit in order to kill. I will suggest a twelve inch circle. In my opionion, a twelve inch circle would be a chest cavity of many game animals and humans, and if you could repitiously hit this sized target, I would consider you to be proficient at the given range. Acceptable limit for this purpose is set at 12 inch circumference. Inside the 12"= acceptable or accurate.

Now lets look at the Atlatl. I am not an expert on the subject. (Although for the purpose of this post, I have read way more than I ever wanted to on the subject.) The spear/dart "chunking" device is used to send the projectile (dart) hurling to the target. Many Atlatl aficionados from around the world join clubs and compete annually with the atlatl at competitive events. These events commonly compare throwers maximum distance as well as accuracy within standard target ranges. The world record atlatl toss is an amazing 848.56 feet. (http://www.flight-toys.com/atlatl.html) This fact amazed me...

Competitors commonly score distances with their devices ranging from 24 to 174 meters. http://www.atlatls-n-more.com/IntroAtlatl/Default.asp?article=117

Accuracy competitions are scored by throwing at a 10" (ten inch) sphere with a 3" center circle, at recognized distances of 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, and 22 meters. http://www.internationalatlatlsociety.org/detailedrules.html It appears that world renowned experts on the subject compete for ACCURACY at distances which are one quarter of what Rhino has suggested. This is a huge discrepancy.

Here is how true experts of the Atlatl explain the effective range of the device:

What is EFFECTIVE RANGE? With the atlatl and dart, effective range is being able to hit a given target at a given range often enough to prevent starvation. In terms of meters, that's 10 to 20 meters for the solo hunter hunting the solo target. For the collective group using a hunting strategy where the targets are driven into a tight shoulder to shoulder bunch, then effective range can be up to 40 meters or more. Still, even with a limited effective range, the differences in the lay of the land, up hill or down hill, stationary or moving, close or far away, a difference of as little as 5 meters will still require the atlatlist to tweak or adjust his or her throwing technique. http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/others/rs-dartcast.htm



RECAP: The atlatl is capable of throwing a dart (projectile) up to nearly 850 feet. Experts advise that the effective range for a solo atlatl thrower is 20 meters. (This is the "accuracy" we are talking about here, not simply throwing a a dozen arrows into the air with hopes to hit some random target in a group of animals herded together...) Nowhere in my research was it suggested that early users of the device were capable of accurate throws of anywhere near the 100 yard mark, even refering to the atlatl as having a "limited effective range" (see above).

According to my research, it appears that the comments provided by the esteemed Rhino, are indeed inaccurate.

I must say, that I did enjoy this project. I learned a lot. Rhino, you lose.

Besides, whats up with calling me a Democrat? If you have any knowledge about what I have written here on this site, you would know that I am probably the biggest Conservative Republican ahole this side of the Mississippi!

Sailingsoul and TD, ya', I know, you are right...sometimes you just have to keep it up, fight the good fight....hope I am not letting you down.

Special note to Turk, sorry, did all this research before your advise, couldnt let it go to waste....

Rhino you can KMA. :bootyshak

oops56
2007-05-09, 23:27
dam i guess i am late but when i was a kid 12 or so we did this all the time i mean all summer long and all we could do was 30 feet and miss all the time less it was a barn door.:afraid: :afraid:

GGS
2007-05-10, 01:52
Man, having just jumped to this thread and having read it all the way through.

I am left thinking wtf?

Cut it out before we hit you with something. Personal attacks and cat calls belong on some other trash hiking forum.

Big nod of agreement for all the wise and very sane comments from Obi-wan-Teedee and Sailingsoul.
Good show.
Anyhoo Im off to the wilderness for a week of contemplation and kayaking.

Hope this thread is dead or back on topic when I get back.
farewell

I'm with Turk. Sorry guys, this is not what I come here for.

Turk
2007-05-10, 04:07
Iceman :congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

Now thats more like it. You present a compelling, informative and well backed argument against the claims of a previous post.
And without direct personal attacks ..... (well almost. Made it to the last line anyway ;) )
In the eyes of many, I'm sure this speaks louder than anything a page of flamer posts could produce. And besides nothing hits harder and lays a beat down on someone better than good old fashioned logic, backed with research, backed by references, and topped with a cherry. Its pretty hard and foolish to argue with a man that lays waste to your claims with simple reason and logic... gives you a means of checking/backing his statement and does it all with civility.
Not to be omitted, take-a-knee declines to persue the pointless bickering past a certain level of degeneracy, keeping the board relatively free of spam.

jimtanker
2007-05-10, 08:18
Great job Kevin!!!

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-10, 10:40
...

Take-A-Knee once referred me to an anger management tape/course/whatever. It might be appropriate for you also.

Take a poop should look into a how not to be an arrogant retard tape. Ive never meet anyone who knew everything and could do anything better than anyone else. Ignorance is apparently bliss, or in his case assumption (pronounced: ASS umption).

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-10, 11:07
Take a shit, you bring things way too far with your idiotic assumptions about what I said. I said accurate, not thread a needle. What is accurate? Beats this crap out of me, but I'm sure it’s a damn site better than your fat ass could do. Cut out the caffeine and take some meds for the voices.

The book "many happy returns' will show you how to make an atlatl with some type of air foil. It’s a book about bomerangs and other primitive weapons I read years ago. It’s geared toward the sport thrower, but does discuss the aboriginal feats; nailing game at 125 yds, 3" deep wounds suffered by europeans who evidently pissed off an aborigine, etc. There are also other books on the subject, on primitive man, etc. It doesn’t really matter what a bunch of modern age hillbillies can do with a stick like your research suggests. You’d be foolish to think those people could do the same thing with a weapon they have been playing with for a few years as the sum of knowledge could for a whole culture using it for generations. And what about knowledge lost over time? You strike me as being dumb enough to think we know everything, how did the pyramids get built, what are those stupid Peru land marks? Certainly YOU must know everything! Your arrogance about everything is one of the most disturbing things on this board, and I bet you a billion dollars that if I came to you right now and hit you in the eyeball with a stick from 125yrds you’d still make up some excuse for why it couldn’t be done.

All I said was ...with the atlatl, they were capable of hurling darts over 100m with great accuracy...

Does that mean they could kill a commie from 1290 yards from an Apache attack helicopter dangling from a rope wearing plate mail armor and typing 200 words a minute like you could? Your an over reacting ass. Go see how far you can stuff an atlatl up your hemorrhoid cavern.

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-10, 11:21
I’m actually going to put this idiotic discussion on hold while I contact some anthropologists educated in this subject. You feel free to satisfy yourself with your hillbilly research, since you seem to think they are the same thing as Aborigines.

Take-a-knee
2007-05-10, 11:27
You aren't a Korean english major by any chance Rhino?

Bear
2007-05-10, 13:29
I was going to put my 2 cents in but on second thought, IT AIN'T WORTH IT!

Rhino-lfl
2007-05-10, 15:31
I apologize that Take-a-knee boiled this down to an argument of retards (to which he wins by experience) because this isn't where I wanted this thread to go. I had genuine interest in my original question and I'd like to close this thread to prevent any future mental regurgitation from ruining its original intent.

Iceman
2007-05-10, 22:38
(In the voice of your mother...) Do you feel better now?

Take a good deep breath, and put your head down for a while. You need a time-out. You need a nap. There now...

After you can calm yourself down, I think you should think about what you have done, and how you might better handle it next time. OK? There, there....:girl:

Hey, seriously Rhino, I am trying to verify your claims, the only book on the web that I can find with your title "Many Happy Returns" in my web search parameters leads me to a childrens book. Here is the quote I have found:

(The boomerang is often times thought of as a weapon. However, the boomerang has always been primarily a recreational toy. The real weapon used by the Aborigines was the killer-stick. The killer-stick shares many properties with the boomerang except one. The killer-stick does not return!

The killer-stick was simply a stick honed to have a cross-section similar to a modern day airfoil. This stick actually flew through the air at high speeds. It was given a rotation at launch for stability much like the discus and frisbee of today. The killer-stick could be thrown very far and with great accuracy. ) http://www.fi.edu/wright/again/wings.avkids.com/wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/instructor/boomerang-01.html

Please tell me this is not the source of your information.

Thudley
2007-05-11, 19:05
I've seen old films of African natives using them in both hunting and war, and a good hit over 10 yards away involved about as much luck as skill.
They wobbled all over the place in the air.

I saw this wobble too, and asked one of the natives about it. He told me that they purposely make the spears thin and flexible to give them more range. He said that the shaft flexes when used with the throwing stick, then rebounds right at release to thrust it further downrange. I didn't doubt his word after watching him continuously throw, and hit, a small hedgerow about the length of a football field away.

I would have bet $$$ that he couldn't do it. :eek2:

dropkick
2007-05-12, 02:26
I used to watch many homemade African films.
My Great Uncle spent alot of time there from 1900 to about 1950.
He filmed many amazing things.

One of the films that I remember best was of 2 tribes warring against each other.

They had long slim spears without atlatls.

Both sides had about 50 to 60 warriors each.
They ran towards each other yelling and waving their spears, about 20 feet from each other both sides stopped and launched their spears. Neither side had shields.

When it was over one man had a spear stuck in his rear end, that was the only appearant injury.

My Uncle filmed the spears in the air and they were wobbling every which way as they flew (think of a javelin).

It was from this film and others like it that I got the idea that spears weren't very accurate over any distance.

pure_mahem
2007-05-13, 00:03
Iceman - I prefer to take a person at their word - now if you would reread the quote in my post:



I prefer to take a person at his word. If you decide that the person who wrote that is full of BS, then that is your choice. In that case, there is really nothing further to discuss since there are two different belief systems at work and two completely different life choices. It then no longer comes down to what a person with an atlatl can do after much practice and training, but what a person decides to believe. I have decided to believe people initially until they prove they are not worthy of that trust. Some people take the opposite tack and choose to totally disbelieve everything a person says/writes until they prove they can be trusted. Totally different life views and choices. Such diametrically opposite views on life will never be bridged by discussion or persuasion. The best the two persons can do is tacitly agree to totally disagree.

I still think I would like you when we met though :biggrin: - same with Take-a-Knee :biggrin:
Wanna buy a bridge?:deal:

LOL:rofl:

Sorry couldn't help it. There are certain things that one would commonly take the other persons word. However I think we've all grown up and know we are not getting the five bucks back from that guy at work and inherently QUESTION EVERYTHING in search of the truth.:albertein

Who was there for the bumble bee, everything scientific says it can't fly yet it does.:willy: And I hope not to offend anyone with this but Bet you a virgin can't have a baby either.

See in my belief if someone comes up to me and says I'm god. Would you believe them? Or would you ask them to prove it?:adore:
personaly I think God would be speaking Arabic do the research He wasn't a Jolly english fellow. :stupido:

Not to be A bible thumper here But If you want to debate plausability look no further. I believe in God but I don't neccesarily believe in the catholic church brain washing that took the Pagans by force. I myself question if I'm a christian a wiccan or a pagan maybe i just believe there is a higher power.

I do believe there is good and there is evil. but only each individual can make there own personal choice.:evil: :angel:

However the bible has been the first book in writing and print yet it is not taught in the school system. HHHHHHHHHmmmmmmmmm.


So where do you get your info to believe it first hand?

Well that's all I'm going to say. SYOTT :beer:

dropkick
2007-05-13, 07:14
Pure Mahem,
Not trying to start any arguments or trouble but just felt a need to correct you on a few things.

If God was to limit himself to any early language it would most likely be Hebrew not Arabic.

Hebrew is the language the Old Testament was written in.
The oldest version of the OT (Dead Sea Scrolls) we know is almost all in Hebrew (a few chapters are in Arimaic).
Also the author attributed with the creation and first writings of the Bible is Moses and he would have written in Hebrew.
(The New Testament was written in Greek)

Also in the OT the Jews are almost the only race God deals with.

The Gutenberg Bible is thought to be the first book to have been created on a PRINTING PRESS (though he may have printed some Latin grammar texts first).
In any case this doesn't make it the first book, there were thousands of books made by hand before the invention of the printing press, and while many of those were Bibles many more were not.

Amigi
2007-05-13, 11:35
Man, not what I come here for....
***pops head up***
When I looked into the atlatl, the first thing that came to mind was a jai-alai scoop. The motion is similiar, though I dont think the centripal force inparted is anywhere as great. But I could see a very skilled person using the device accurately for 100 yards. I really could. The baseball analogy is very good also. Would a light thin spear have any killing force left? I would think not, but I dont wanna piss off any aborigines to find out either!
***ducks, runs for cover***