PDA

View Full Version : Tarps modified for a Kifaru type stove



Turk
2007-05-24, 18:25
Hey folks.

So ... I need a good DIY project... Here's what I am thinking.

Could you take an oversized hammock tarp, pitch it right to the ground on 2 sides and close one of the tree ends in, creating a 3 sided room.

Then mate this tarp with a small Kifaru type wood stove?

I know there are several kifaru stove users on this forum. And also people that have used the tipi tents. Could anyone help me out with design elements?

Specifically how does one construct the fire retardant chimney hole through the tarp? That would be key.
Also how big a tarp would you need?
With the smallest model kifaru stove, how big a space could you heat to a reasonable temperature.

I am looking to develop a truly winterized hammock set up, with below tarp living space.

Turk
2007-05-24, 18:45
I am thinking that to start i will need a large cheap non-functional mock-up version. Have to explore some of the dimensions and maybe build a mockup cardboard kifaru stove (haven't bought one yet).

Can anyone help with suggestions of where to start. I got into some math... and then got a headache yesterday and didnt accomplish anything more than sweeping out the garage floor and clearing a design area.

I need to throw some starting numbers together and see what it looks like. I have a very large painters drop sheet that I can cut up to build the mock up.
But I need a starting point. Hopefully larger than necessary so that I could always scale down and use the same material.

thoughts?
http://ehko.info/tarpproj.JPG

Take-a-knee
2007-05-24, 18:49
Turk, Titanium goat well retrofit their stove jack to your shelter, or they'll just sell you the stove jack. They make a way cool stove also from titanium. I would just use a tipi and a full-length Z-rest with a short Prolite thermarest. Maybe a synthetic overquilt for the Rock Wren.

JAK
2007-05-24, 19:51
Very cool Turk. The stovepipe can be on an angle, so that there is more distance for it to give off heat before exiting. As for the fireproof chimney hole, I think they use a square of kevlar or fibreglass cloth with a hole for the stovepipe. It also helps if the stovepipe is cooler by the time it exits. I am not sure how the Kifaru guy make the nylon reasonably fire retardant. The old duck cotton tents were soaked in alum. Do you think that might work for nylon, at least to slow it down?

TeeDee
2007-05-24, 21:31
Turk - for the chimney hole, you could try one of those flame protector pads that the plumbers use. Sgt Rock bought one recently. Here's one:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=173498-138-31400&pad=true

It is actually black, non-asbestos and holds up to direct flame. They specify 2,000 deg F, so it could insulate the chimney well enough. You should be able to sew it easy enough. At 9" by 12" you may need 2 - don't know. At $15, they are inexpensive enough to try. Sealing the pad around the chimney would be interesting. No ideas on how you could do that.

Iceman
2007-05-25, 00:33
Turk, a thought, keep the chimney in the structure as long as possible to steal any leftover heat...IE: place the stove at the far end of the structure, chimney exits tarp near the apex. This also allows you to grab radiant heat from the stove/chimney to help dry stuff hanging around the chimney. Exhaust gasses will be cooler, sparks hopefully spent, less tarp risk? :albertein

dropkick
2007-05-25, 02:24
Turk,
Just a thought - don't know if it'll help you at all but thought I'd tell you how we used to warm (floorless) tents without a stove.

You dig a small trench in the ground and lay a flat piece of steel overtop of it leaving a (heck with this -- I'm drawing a picture instead)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1165284/fire.JPG

Occasionally we would have 2 pieces of steel (as in picture) to make loading the fire easier, but usually we loaded from outside or just lifted the plate (smokey).

It's a simple set up and doesn't actually need to be very large to warm most tents. (I've seen it done with a #10 coffee can, cut open and flattened)

dropkick
2007-05-25, 02:49
Oh got to excited with drawing and forgot to put in my 2 bits about a stove jack.
Some are metal, some are fiberglass, and in the old days some were made of leather or asbestos cloth.
I'd try making one out of fiberglass cloth for flexibility.

Spark arrestor - make holes in the top section of the pipe, or make the last section of hardware cloth and put a cap above it.
The air coming from the sides usually burns out or extinguishes the sparks. Don't put screen over the top of the pipe, it limits the airflow too much.

JAK
2007-05-25, 10:12
An idea you might consider is to use some swivel fittings on the hammock ropes going to the trees, and then strap yourself in somehow and rig up a long rope and counterweight. You want to turn fairly slowly, but evenly. I think you see where I'm going with this. :biggrin:

Turk
2007-05-25, 19:44
Okay, some great ideas given. Much thanks.
I didn't even know about the Ti-goat stove!! That thing is sweet.
I just don't know about a round stove for practical use though. Will have to
read some of the reviews about it. DEFINATELY interested though considering
the weight and dimensions.

I am glad to learn something of these chimney issues. I got re-thinking my whole design because of some points brought up here about not wasting heat and getting the pipe to exit higher in the tarp.

So I am now thinking, a simple parachute hammock. ) I have the ENO single.
Far more practical than a bottom entry, and greatly reducing the head space I would need on one side of the tarp - hence a smaller overall tarp.

I am also thinking maybe some cat cuts to get good stiff tension and also help support the pipe better through a stiffer jack in high winds.

Here is concept 2 :

http://ehko.info/tarpproj2.JPG

Turk
2007-05-26, 00:22
http://ehko.info/tarpproj3.JPG

Turk
2007-05-26, 04:37
I dont think this type of shelter becomes weight efficient until you
add an extra person to the equation.
http://ehko.info/tarpproj4.JPG

dropkick
2007-05-27, 02:22
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1165284/aaaa.JPG

JAK
2007-05-30, 06:29
Great illustrations.
I think that idea from dropkick has the most potential to provide the most radiant and convective heat to a hammock dweller. Perhaps too much, but if it was a small stove, or after it went out, it might be just right. Hot rocks under a hammock inside a tarp might be very comfy also. Turks illustrations seem most suitable for sticking an arm or toe out to fire up the stove for a cup of coffee before warming or waking up completely. Of course there is a continuum, as the stove could be semi buried, and/or partially underneath the hammock. When using a stove with a hammock some sort of reflector might be handy also, either to block direct heat or reflect indirect heat back more evenly, or some sort of heat sink to spread the heat from the stove over a larger area.

dropkick
2007-05-31, 17:56
Was sitting by the computer waiting for some other people to get ready. To occupy my time I drew another picture.
This is just an expansion on my last drawing and suggestion.
-Does seem to solve most of the problems that I could think of (sure I missed some though).

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1165284/hamtentheat.JPG

What do you think?

Woods Walker
2007-06-06, 01:53
Turk.

It has been done before. Some guy did it for his Clark North American. I have a Ti Goat stove jack. Worked out well so maybe this is the way to go. This guy used fiberglass oven insulation for a stove jack.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/hammockstove.jpg

Turk
2007-06-06, 18:19
Woods Walker,

Thanks for chiming in. I remembered your winter pics and was really hoping to get your advice, knowing you had alot of experience with wood stoves and tents.

Right now I have found a supplier for soft structure UV resistant tyvek 1460u.
I think its what I am going to make the body out of. Not 100% convinced to turn away from silnylon just yet. But I keep coming back to a comment somebody made to me about field repairs.

If I did get a rogue spark burn through a tyvek tarp, a little tyvek tape, and in 20 seconds I have a permanent waterproof repair patch. I like that idea alot.

Still trying to dig up some comments on people that own kifaru or ti-goat stoves to see what they think of them. Mostly burn time, ease of maintaining heat etc.

Haven't figured out what size to go with.

Woods Walker
2007-06-07, 23:42
Sil nylon works just fine and it is easy to fix in the field. As for any pinholes just a dab of SilNet or GE Sil 2 does the job. A patch of Sil nylon with a little Silnet on one side works for larger cuts etc. Only got one pin hole in my Paratipi and zero in the 4-man. First off you should think of these UL wood stoves as a campfire in a box rather than an overnight wood stove. I say UL, as the Kifaru small stove with pipe is less than 3 lbs. The Ti goat Box stove is maybe 6 oz lighter. The Kifaru Medium stove is less than 5 lbs.

Here are some photos of my UL wood burners.

Homemade stove.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/100_4488.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/PULKTRIP5.jpg

Kifaru Small stove.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/100_3913.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/smallstove1.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/smallstove3-2.jpg

Large Kifaru stove.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/100_3202.jpg

Kni-co Packer Jr. stove.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/100_2745.jpg

Ti-goat Round stove.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/minbobstovetest.jpg

The longest burning stove are my Homemade stove and Kni-co Stove. Homemade stove runs about 1 hour and the Kni-co stove 1.5 hours. However the Kni-co smokes too much and there is no way it can be considered backpack able. The homemade stove is heavier than the take down stove and is less packable but not a beast like the Kni-co. The Ti-goat round stove is super light at 1 lb 10 oz but it is not a good cooker being round and it is a bit delicate. The Kifaru small stove burns for about 25-30 minutes with good hard wood. The large stove about 1 hour maybe more. This is why these stoves should be viewed as a campfire in a box. They are very good at cooking. More like a range top than a normal backpacker stove. So subtract the weight of your camp stove and fuel as you will not need it.
Here are the pros and cons of both Kifaru/Ti Goat box stove. I would not get the Ti-goat round stove or the Kifaru Para stove. The Para being too small and the TI-goat round stove being too thin.

Kifaru Small stove.

1. Easier to set up as there are no tinny screws to vanish
2. I like the door better as the opening is larger for feeding.
3. Collar allows for more angle pipe adjustment.
4. Cheaper.
5. Kifaru has very good customer service

Ti-goat Ti-box stove.

1. Ti transfers heat better than Stainless at higher temps
2. Round opening is better for running the stove with the door open
3. Ti Damper is good. I have one and use it on all my stoves.
4. A bit lighter
5. Like Kifaru they have good customer service.

Hard to say what one to pick as they are both good. I liked the Medium Kifaru stove too as it allowed for larger wood and that means less work feeding the stove. But than again it weights more. No free lunch. But I do like my UL wood stoves. They are fun to screw around with. Nice to have a wood fire burning during a washout trip. Dries my gear, heats my shelter, cooks my food and most importantly lets me play with fire smoke free. Glowing red metal is cool to look at. Also you can pitch these stove under an A frame.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/smalltarp5.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/smalltarp1.jpg

There is not reason why I could not have had the Hammock set up under that same tarp.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/100_2305.jpg

Would make a nice Kayak shelter or base camp for fall hunting.

Iceman
2007-06-08, 10:09
Mmmmm, perogies......

Hey great photo montage. You are killing me! Now I have to go look around for some stainless stuff to put together to make a stove to try out... Thanks alot!!! :biggrin:

Woods Walker
2007-06-09, 00:33
It's the roll up pipe that makes these things packable. The pipe rolls down to 14x2 inches for a 4-8 footer.

Take-a-knee
2007-06-09, 10:40
Ti Goat now has Ti foil available for the roll-up pipe. More money but less weight and better heat transfer.

Woods Walker
2007-06-09, 23:24
Looks like they have a larger stove too. I remember emailing him about the need some time ago. I don't know if Ti stove pipe is worth the extra money. The metal is thin and even though SS does not have the heat transfer of Ti we are talking about very thin and light weight material. But I do like this.

"these pipes are also stronger, the titanium pipes are 20% thicker than the
stainless pipes. So not only are they lighter, stronger, and last a life time"

Never had any issue with the Stainless pipe and I have used them 100's of times but if the Ti pipe is both thicker and lighter for only 40-50 bucks more who knows maybe it is a good thing. I liked the larger TI-goat stove as it is about the same size as the Kifaru Med stove

7"x8.5"x15" fire box for Ti goat larger stove. 3.7 lbs with Ti pipe. 450.00 or 400 with SS pipe.

8"x9'x12' fire box for Kifaru 4 lbs 7 oz with stainless pipe. 333.00

Good to see more options out there.

Turk
2007-06-17, 21:38
Woods,
Thanks so much for the valuable comparison of the stoves. That info is pure gold. I will definately have to ponder over which to purchase. You definately have swayed me to fully reconsider the kifaru models. Also, I believe I would have ended up with a stove much too small for my wants and needs. I will certainly be looking for burn-time and firebox size as a major factor because of your comments.

Dropkick,
I have been doing quite a bit of tarp design and testing in the garage, last couple weekends. I think your drawings for the single man stove option is the most refined in terms of simplicity and highest weight savings. I will definately be building one prototype model based on your design. Thanks much for the input.

Anyways, here is a project update:
I was out saturday morning garage sale hunting (tis the season to get great gear deals) last several weekends. I picked up an enormous tarp (25x75). Just your typical cheap walmart blue variety, but in a really odd size. Extra long because it was a boat cover. Cost me $5.00.

Spent a full weekend just trying to manhandle the beast in my somewhat small garage. I cut it down into strips of widely differing sizes. I figured it would be perfect for testing the various designs I have in mind. Not terrible on my cutting. About 1/4" deviation in my cuts over the whole 75ft.
http://ehko.info/HQ_multihang_proj_01.JPG
I used temporary clips and pins to play around with the different pieces. My smallest scrap piece is 9ft 5" x 25". The rest of the tarp has been cut larger so I can experiment with the closing ends I want.

So I called an impromptu family camping trip late saturday afternoon.
Just car camping, nothing special. We all slept under the small scrap piece of tarp. It was more than ample living space. Very light rain and lightning this morning.
Learned 2 valuable lessons.

1. HH model hammocks are fine with a 9.5ft tarp. But Eno's need at least 10ft. Also, I can cut a good ft out of my headroom and effectively shave 30 sq/ft off my total tarp.

2. My multi-hang family set up using only 2 trees and a suspension rope to simulate another tree was very successful. Spacing between hammocks was easily adjusted and bounce/ tension on the rig was a non issue. This has given my unlimited options for multi-hanging. I just need to trim down on rope weight for wilderness application. Was using 3/8" double brd, 1650lb bs.

Here's some pics of the test rig in action:
http://ehko.info/HQ_multihang_proj_02.JPG
http://ehko.info/HQ_multihang_proj_03.JPG
http://ehko.info/HQ_multihang_proj_04.JPG
http://ehko.info/HQ_multihang_proj_05.JPG

Turk
2007-06-24, 15:44
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!!

Ordered my Ti-goat stove today. SOOOOOOO Excited!

Large model ti stove with ti pipe. Also having it customized for
tool-less assembly. ya baby!!:biggrin: :biggrin:

Now the hardest part .... the looong wait:argh: :argh: :boring:


time to crack the whip and get my sister sewing. The proto tarps
have to get finished before my tyvek arrives. I am building dropkicks
suggested model, and a scaled down model of my double pitch.
In dropkicks I should still have enough room for one hammock and one
person go-to-ground option. or possibly one hammock and one kids
hammock side-by-side. In the larger model I will refine the entry
slits based on dropkicks simple tie off curtain design and it should
comfortably accomodate 2 adult hammocks with room for 2 additional
ground set ups, all with the ability of stoking the wood stove without
getting out of bed. woo hoo!

Woods Walker
2007-06-26, 02:08
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!!

Ordered my Ti-goat stove today. SOOOOOOO Excited!

Large model ti stove with ti pipe. Also having it customized for
tool-less assembly. ya baby!!:biggrin: :biggrin:

Now the hardest part .... the looong wait:argh: :argh: :boring:


time to crack the whip and get my sister sewing. The proto tarps
have to get finished before my tyvek arrives. I am building dropkicks
suggested model, and a scaled down model of my double pitch.
In dropkicks I should still have enough room for one hammock and one
person go-to-ground option. or possibly one hammock and one kids
hammock side-by-side. In the larger model I will refine the entry
slits based on dropkicks simple tie off curtain design and it should
comfortably accomodate 2 adult hammocks with room for 2 additional
ground set ups, all with the ability of stoking the wood stove without
getting out of bed. woo hoo!


Glad you went with the large sized stove. They have the snow leg option that allows the stove to be packed set up as the legs fold in. However I think the stove can still be taken down. Makes the stove backpackable. Tell me more about this tool less assembly thing? One thing about all of these stove is that they warp badly. However this is not an issue as it comes back into shape during setup. I will be looking for the photos when you get it. The same thing for your shelter idea. I am thinking with damper that large Ti-goat stove should be able to put off some heat for 45 minutes before needing stoking but this is only a guess.

Turk
2007-06-26, 04:55
i will post some pics when it comes in. My tooless assembly is not very exciting. Just replacing sheet metal screws with stainless thumb screws.
DJ at ti-goat suggested that he could weld me up sheet metal screws with tabs on them like wing nuts so that I wouldnt need the little screw driver.

I don't which way it will end up going. I will either have wing-style sheet metal screws, or these: http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/tsx.cfm

Either way, it will be cool not to have to rely on a tiny screwdriver to assemble the stove.

I was thinking about the folding legs option, but my end goal is as low a weight as possible.
I think all said and done with ti-stove, ti-damper and ti-flue pipe I will be very close to the 3lb mark.
Dj says the stove with 8ft ti pipe weighs 3lbs 7 oz. But I may be trimming up to 2ft off my pipe.
I saved 11oz by going all titanium and get a thicker gauge pipe. It seemed well worth the extra 50 bucks.

I also bought 2 of their stove boots. I figure i'll use 2 of theirs for my 2 tarps I am definitely making, and if
I explore more tarp sizes I'll try a homemade one.

At any rate, not a cheap purchase: all said and done $602.50 Canadian.
+ whatever they are going to ding me at the border in tarrifs. Likely between $70.00-$85.00

*sigh* - no more toys for Turk this summer. I have to get saving for JRB's new hammock tent, which I may save one of the ti-goat stove boots for and install it in that. http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/2/20070127MtRogers-17.JPG



Dear Ryan Miles,


This email confirms that you sent a payment for $548.01 USD to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



----------------------------------------------------------------
Payment Details
----------------------------------------------------------------

Amount: $548.01 USD
Currency Conversion: $602.50 CAD = $548.01 USD
Currency From: CAD
Currency To: USD
Exchange Rate: 0.909569 The exchange rate for this purchase is 1 CAD = 0.909569USDSubject: Lrg Ti Sove

Woods Walker
2007-06-27, 01:33
"But I may be trimming up to 2ft off my pipe"

Don't do that. The stove will draft better with a longer pipe. Only if using a shelter that did not take a 8-foot pipe would I consider doing this. I have a 4-foot pipe for my paratipi but now use a 5-footer. For my 4-man I use a 7-footer. A longer pipe will draft better and toss sparks away from your tent. Also down draft less in heavy wind.

Turk
2007-07-03, 23:05
Alright, this is the final design revision ... I hope, on Dropkicks extremely
efficient and elegant design. I don't know what to call the shape now.
It tapers in all directions. The backbone slants front to rear, but I also
tapered the width of the tarp, figuring that two people could have their
feet closer together in two hammocks so long as a decent separation
was maintained in the body and head area. Also leaving room for the
stove. Here is the pattern for my one piece construction with the
poly tarp.
http://ehko.info/tarpproj_1man_rev_3dk.JPG

GGS
2007-07-06, 14:27
Woods Walker,

In this picture here

What do you have the chimmney supported with? Is it just attached to the stove? Do you have it attached to your ridge line somehow? I can't see from the picture...

Seems like 6-8' of chimmney would blow over easily if just attached to stove.

Sorry, can't insert picture, here's attachment...

Woods Walker
2007-07-09, 21:16
I used a stick.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/smalltarp4.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/smallstovepipe.jpg

For the stove under a tarp thing I go with a 5-foot pipe. Does not draft like a longer pipe however is more handy and wind proof do to the angle. For my Tipi I use 7-8 foot pipes.

7 foot in a Kifaru 4-man.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/100_2291.jpg

8 foot pipe in my old 6-man.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/tipideers2.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/6man4.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/6man3.jpg

Shorter pipes are used for crazy homemade shelters like this.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/tarpshelter2.jpg

or tarps.....

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/tarp3-1.jpg

Turk
2007-07-21, 17:29
Okay, all the parts and pieces are finally here.
My brand new camera has mysteriously died on me, so I am unable
to take any pics at the moment... but thank god for extended
in store warranties. I'll toss it back at them and get a replacement
if necessary. Just won't turn on at all. (sony DSC-S650)

Anyways, I have a real nylon working tarp set up today.
I decided to go with the Kelty Noah 16 tarp for a number of reasons.
Several people felt that 1.1oz ripstop would not survive the thick
brush and scraping branches that I normally hike in. I wanted a cat-cut
tarp, but the DIY skills required to make a true cat-cut are not beginner
friendly. And lastly, the Kelty Noah tarps are just plain DIRT CHEAP.
I don't think Icould have bought the materials at wholesale for the finished
price of this tarp.

I am in the midst of pinning up all my modifications to make this tarp into my
finished multihammock heated shelter. The ti-goat jack is going in, velcro end
closures and extra guy-outs this weekend.

VERY excited to get it pitched again and start using the stove inside it.
In hindsight.... the thing is frigin huge. I know I was expecting it to be big...
but the reality of it always catches you. This tarp will give me the perfect
dining shelter and heated social area for group camping this winter. I can
easily accomodate my wife and daughter inside with all our hammocks touching....
or house one hammock, ti-goat stove and have loads of room for 2 people to
go-to-ground on either side with all gear, and a large wood pile, while maintaining
safe distance from the hot stove.

Take-a-knee
2007-07-21, 18:46
Turk (and all those with Sony cameras) there has been a class-action suit relating to failures of many Sony cameras. The screens go out if I remember correctly.

Spice1
2007-07-22, 02:06
Turk, what are the dimensions on the tarp? Sorry if you posted it, Fiance got me drinking Jamesons early tonight. . .

Turk
2007-07-22, 09:42
16ft 2" x 16ft 2"

Iceman
2007-07-22, 11:12
Turk, I am dying to see a floor plan. I am still trying to figure an elk camp bunker design....maybe something like this could work for me...How much head room, how well of a seal at the edge to keep out wind.... I pray your camera get's fixed soon!