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dropkick
2007-07-30, 03:35
Hiked up in the Bitterroots today and saw several whitetail deer and one moose.

It's not unusual for me to see deer, as I see many of them almost every day. However seeing a buck is always a treat and today I saw two. Was within 50 feet of both of them.

They were both in velvet. One was a nice little 4 point (western count - 4 tines to an antler) and the other was a nontypical.

For those of you that don't know what this means: either the area were the antlers grows from was damaged when the buck was younger, or this set was damaged early in the antler growth cycle, or the deer has something wrong with it. Anyway, it had one long tine on the left and three small tines on the right.

Hardly ever see a nontypical.

And I saw a cow moose going over the hill. Unless I'm in a river drainage I very seldom see a moose. And even then I don't see them often.

Makes for a memorable day.

Turk
2007-07-30, 19:10
we should trade.

I see moose and bear all the time. It is a rare treat to see timber wolf.

But I have never seen deer or large cats.
I don't really know where the line is drawn for deer habitat. I notice lots of deer hunting info when I drive down into the upper peninsula of michigan. But I have never heard of any deer north of the border crossing at Sault Ste Marie.

JAK
2007-07-30, 23:43
I understand deer like it dry, and moose like it wet. We have both. Also deer like new growth, which also tends to be dry of course. So they like areas where foresty is going on, or after fires. Cold is a factor too though. I think as you go further north caribou eventually take over because of the cold, and moose can handle the cold better also because of their size. We used to have woodland caribou here in New Brunswick, but they went extinct about 100 years ago or more. They say it was because the logging brought in more deer, which brought disease. I think that was just the nail in the coffin though. I think the loggers ate a lot of them also, as they would be a pretty easy source of food for feeding lots of men at once. Perhaps they were already in decline because of climate change. Not sure. Any caribou up where you are? There are many in Newfoundland, and Labrador of course. Moose were introduced to Newfoundland, but the caribou were there already and still are. It's interesting how different they all are in behaviour, even though they are all in the deer family. Interesting note. There are no Deer or Moose on Prince Edward Island, but they have still found cases of Lyme Disease, in cats.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1480767

dropkick
2007-07-31, 01:44
Montana is a little dry for moose. Pretty sure that's why we don't have many.
I usually see at least one a year though, but that is because I like fishing and being on the water. I would bet that there are people who have lived here for years and haven't even seen one.

Getting near the season where I don't want to see one. Another month and they'll be in rut. For some reason I've always been more worried about moose than bear.
- Which is kind of stupid as I actually know people that have been attacked by bears and none that have been attacked by moose. Maybe it's because while I see more bears, the bears usually just want to get away, while the moose often seem to be deciding if I'm worth the bother of stomping. -

Where I live right now we have deer all over the place. I can walk a 1/4 mile from the house and I know that I'll see at least 10 or 12 deer. There were less were I grew up but I always knew where to go if I wanted to see some, and it was never very far away.
I've haven't ever thought about being without them, it would seem odd to me.

Though I know they live all around me, the only big cat I've ever seen in the wild was stalking me, so I could have done without that sighting. - Without my dog I'd have never even known it was there.

Wolves... I'd be more than happy to give the Canadian government back the wolves that our government spent over 7 million dollars to import. I wouldn't even charge, I don't like them.

How about elk? You got elk?
I have a large herd that keeps going through my land and eating all my new trees. They also like to play with and sometimes destroy anything I leave out. I like to have them around though.

Kiwi Dad
2007-07-31, 06:34
Wow, growing up in New Zealand I was lucky to see Whitetail, Red, Whapati and Simba deer. Also I was fortunate when I was in the navy to be on Stuart Island where for many years the world record Whitetail deer was shot. Understandably the place is remote as when I was there the last person to chart the area was Captain Cook in 1770! Where I am, for wild life I often see Australian Eagle, feral pigs, Emus and plains Turkeys. Not to mention heaps of roos - they keep trying to kamakazi my vehicle.

dropkick
2007-07-31, 07:35
For big birds in my neighborhood I see bald eagles, golden eagle, turkeys, turkey buzzards, swans, canadian geese, snow geese, pelicans, horned owls, cranes, herons, osprey, and all kinds of hawk.
Some of them are just traveling through, some live here for the summer, and others are here year round.

When I think about it I guess I'm pretty lucky in the area I grew up in and live in now.

Though as I watch all these people move in and the open areas turn into housing developments I sometimes wish I had been born a hundred years earlier.

Kiwi Dad
2007-07-31, 08:00
I'm a bit out from the built up areas and I find it pleasing to see wildlife during my normal working day. The Australian Eagle is not endangered but close, I think. I've a nephew from way down south (big city) and he loves coming here, he gets to see snakes who shed their skin, roos, wallabys etc. I guess it doesn't matter what it is that you witness but the fact that they are there to witness. I grew up lucky and it is getting harder for them to see what I saw. I guess we all try to pass that on to the kids. Can I make a statement - I've been fortunate to visit the USA a couple of times and I've found that it is a very big place that has ROOM! From what I have communicated and personally seen .....there is so much there, different temps, people, tracks, ...the landscape is ..you bewdee! It is so fantastic that it is well and truly worth fighting for.

Just a passionate Kiwi :)

Kiwi Dad
2007-07-31, 08:02
I'm a bit out from the built up areas and I find it pleasing to see wildlife during my normal working day. The Australian Eagle is not endangered but close, I think. I've a nephew from way down south (big city) and he loves coming here, he gets to see snakes who shed their skin, roos, wallabys etc. I guess it doesn't matter what it is that you witness but the fact that they are there to witness. I grew up lucky and it is getting harder for them to see what I saw. I guess we all try to pass that on to the kids. Can I make a statement - I've been fortunate to visit the USA a couple of times and I've found that it is a very big place that has ROOM! From what I have communicated and personally seen .....there is so much there, different temps, people, tracks, ...the landscape is ..you bewdee! It is so fantastic that it is well and truly worth fighting for.

Just a passionate Kiwi :)

Bear
2007-07-31, 18:51
Hey Dropkick,
You get tired of those elk and white tail eating up your landscape me and my boy will be happy to help you with that problem:biggrin:

TeeDee
2007-07-31, 21:44
Where I grew up, we had a lot of deer - they feed on the grain. Lots of deer and pheasant.

Now I live in suburban MD and there are more deer than dogs and cats. No hunting allowed south and east of a certain line - Thank God - to much civilization. All I need is to walk out the door and have some witless hunter who's never handled a rifle mistake me for a deer. The first time hunters would probably clean out all the dogs long before they ever took aim on a deer.

Take-a-knee
2007-07-31, 23:59
TeeDee, I know Maryland is full of anti-hunting whackos, but many cities are allowing "urban bowhunters". It is usually only members of a bowhunting club who've been vetted of sorts, competent shots at a minimum, and only "high-percentage" shots from an elevated stand are allowed. A twenty yard shot from a hunter five yards up a tree presents just about zero chance of hurting anything except the deer. Fulton county Ga (Atlanta) has produced the largest archery-killed bucks in the state for several years.

Turk
2007-08-01, 01:18
In the 20's&30's we used to have large herds of caribou. During the 1st & second world war, the trans canada highway stopped literally at my next door neighbour. Didn't go any further north. Those that refused to fight or dodged the draft for medical reasons, ended up building the highway and extending it into manitoba. Long story short -- large work crews, in bitter conditions... kill off the caribou herds in a decade.
http://ehko.info/HQ_home_map.JPG
In the 60's and 70's they tried to save the caribou herds and established several wildlife preserves such as the large island off the coast from our house. They would ship tagged caribou over on barges to the island. The population did grow for awhile and stabilized. Caribou returned to the mainland every winter across the ice. The ministry then established a controlled wolf habitat on the island to balance out the herds. Thanks to global warming, the winters got warmer.... by the late 80's the ice bridge was forming later, getting thinner. By the early 90's it wasn't forming at all, or skipping years at a time. The caribou were eventually cut off from the mainland completely and the wolf pack gradually decimated the herd while increasing the wolf population rapidly.
Today no large game survives on the island, the wolf pack is thinned considerably and the icepack extends only a few hundred feet into the bays.

This has been a hard reality, having grown up and watched the changes taking place in my backyard. The caribou have pushed far north now, the herds smaller. I would have to drive hours north to see any now. Lake superior is down so much from when I was a small child. Drought every year. Bigger, more intense fires every summer. Temps are on the rise.
You know how it goes .....
Al Gore has very receptive ears on this side of the border.

dropkick
2007-08-01, 07:26
My only problem with the global warming people is their use of either bad or no science at all.
I agree that the climate is changing, I just have problems with the culprit.

There is no proof that places any theory above any other.
It could be cow flatuation, CO2 from industry and vehicles, ozone layer depletion, changes in the magnetic lay lines, deforestation, increased humidity, a combination of these, or any other of a number of different theories, including natural climate changes.

The global warming people take these theories and opinion papers put out by people and present them as facts. This bothers me - even when the person doing it "invented the internet".

Human beings have actually lived in what has been a cool period in the earths' history. For the majority of what we know of the earths climate it was much warmer before we arrived.

I'm also not saying that we shouldn't try fixes for the climate based on these theories. I'm saying we shouldn't be taking theory for fact, and we shouldn't push one theory above the others without proof.




My opinion on climate change: I think the greatest contributer to the change has been the deforestation of the rain forests.

Take-a-knee
2007-08-01, 09:29
The P#ta types were saying years ago that eating beef was causing global warming, all those cows farting and all. Someone who could think for himself said why didn't tens of millions of bison (also ruminates who eructate and fart) cause global warming? That was the end of that argument.

oops56
2007-08-01, 10:13
Yep its happen i do my part a little but as far it goes i dont have long on this earth so it dont matter to much for me. :bootyshak

Iceman
2007-08-01, 11:16
Every single person who theorizes that humans are the cause for climate change base their studies on a single assumption-that the suns radiance is a constant.

When we look at the larger picture, that polar ice caps used to extend to where I live (Washington state) and beyond, and that Western Europe experienced a general cooling of the climate between the years 1150 and 1460 and a very cold climate between 1560 and 1850 that brought dire consequences to its peoples. http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/little_ice_age.html, I would argue that no one can say conclusively that "global warming" is mancaused at all. See Tautology, go look it up.

Remember, as recently as the 70's- these same scientist were warning of the impending global cooling-the next ice age!

What caused the dust bowl?

What caused european cllimate change 3000 years ago, thaw enough for Otzi the Iceman ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman ) to have travelled over Alp glacier fields up high, for him to die and be covered with glacier ice for over 3000 years? Do you think for a second that he too could have been living in a period of time when the earth temperature were higher for centuries? Maybe? Was is global warming then? Yes. Probably. Was is human caused? Probably not.

Come on folks, wake up. We are not definitevely the only reason shit happens on this earth.

If you feel that you personally are causing the earth to warm, if you feel the need to use less toilet paper, walk to work, turn your thermostat down to 64, and purchase carbon offsets and place money into the pocket of Al Gore, go ahead, just dont shove it down my throat. In ten years when the seas rise a foot, when you are shiverring in cold, and wishing for some global warming you will realize then that you had your head stuck up your asz.

Have a nice day.

I feel better now.

BigJohn
2007-08-01, 15:00
We have whitetail deer, elk, wild turkeys (the bird and the bourbon), coon, red-tailed hawk, great horned owls, barn owls, black bear, peregrine falcons, wildcats, rattlers, copperheads, heron, bald eagles, and hillbillies. Those are the things I see the most of anyway. We also have over 160 species of native trees.

Take-a-knee
2007-08-01, 15:19
I'm glad you feel better Ice. I think it all boils down to this, the "watermelons" (green on the outside, bloody red on the inside) would be beating the drum for less free enterprise and more socialist/communist government about something else if they hadn't cooked up this global warming crap. The earth maybe warming, I don't know. Global warming means more carbon dioxide, that means more plants and more rainfall, what is so bad about that?

TeeDee
2007-08-01, 17:27
TeeDee, I know Maryland is full of anti-hunting whackos, but many cities are allowing "urban bowhunters". It is usually only members of a bowhunting club who've been vetted of sorts, competent shots at a minimum, and only "high-percentage" shots from an elevated stand are allowed. A twenty yard shot from a hunter five yards up a tree presents just about zero chance of hurting anything except the deer. Fulton county Ga (Atlanta) has produced the largest archery-killed bucks in the state for several years.

I'm NOT an anti-hunting whacko as you so fondly put it. I hunted when and where it was and is safe to do so. In areas where I could range over hundreds and sometimes thousands of acres without seeing another human. The hunting area doesn't have to be that deserted, but suburban areas are not good hunting areas and you do not have to be an anti-hunting whacko to understand that.

Hunting in areas where you cannot see more than 200 feet because the houses block the view is just plain stupid.

Anybody that thinks they can safely hunt in such an area is going to kill somebody someday - bullets from high power rifles punch through walls quite easily.

MD has set the boundaries in which it is illegal to hunt to protect the people and not the animals.

Bow hunting is legal in the area around me and I have seen bow hunters walking into the woods less than 1/4 mile from my home. Some of them know what they doing. But when I see some guy in brand new camo, with a shiny new bow with more equipment hung on the bow than Rock has on his rifle, I know that everybody had better stay out the woods - only the deer are safe.

Even bow hunting is marginally safe for some of the bow hunters I have seen. An arrow from a hunting bow and using a broadhead will pass clean through a deer at distances that will surprise a lot of people. The same for a crossbow. If the bow hunter gets a little excited and releases wrong that arrow can do a lot of damage to whatever is in it's path.

There's an archery range not far from me that I frequent. The targets are setup in small sheds built of 1/2" plywood. The targets are 5' diameter hay about 2' thick. At 20 yards, the targets are pretty hard to miss (impossible with my Excalibur Phoenix), but every single shed has a LOT of holes punched clean through the 1/2" plywood and only field points are allowed. I have personally dug about 6 or so field points out the plywood that others have just plain given up on and broken the shafts off.

The reason for the spiel - an arrow from a hunting bow (long, compound or recurve) can and will miss the intended target and can and will do a LOT of damage to whatever is in the remainder of it's path. Being punctured by a broadhead tipped arrow at a range of 100 or more yards is going to seriously ruin your day, week, month and probably the rest of your life. The fact that the arrow was meant for a deer is not going to cheer you up much.

Allowing hunting, rifle or bow (horizontal or vertical), in populated urban and/or suburban areas is just rolling the dice to see how soon someone is killed.

TeeDee
2007-08-01, 17:48
What caused european cllimate change 3000 years ago, thaw enough for Otzi the Iceman ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman ) to have travelled over Alp glacier fields up high, for him to die and be covered with glacier ice for over 3000 years? Do you think for a second that he too could have been living in a period of time when the earth temperature were higher for centuries? Maybe? Was is global warming then? Yes. Probably. Was is human caused? Probably not.

Glad you feel better :biggrin:

But if the area where the iceman was thawed out, how did he freeze fast enough to have been preserved until now?? Must have been damned cold enough to freeze his body fast enough to preserve it and then bury it deep enough in snow/ice before predators could find it. :ahhhhh:

GGS
2007-08-01, 18:43
Glad you feel better :biggrin:

But if the area where the iceman was thawed out, how did he freeze fast enough to have been preserved until now?? Must have been damned cold enough to freeze his body fast enough to preserve it and then bury it deep enough in snow/ice before predators could find it. :ahhhhh:

Hmmm. Thinking about this...

I wonder if you would even need to freeze to be preserved? I think the key is cold DRY air. A mummified body is basically dehydrated. Once in that dried state as long as the air remained cold and dry the body would remain preserved for decades until finally the glacier came along and took it down for the long term deep freeze. If the body was high enough in elevation that predators or scavengers were unlikely to find it of course.

A solo climber on Everest disappeared years ago. Many years later another climb team found his mummified body still in the position of tying his shoelaces, if I remember correctly. He was not preserved in ice, although I cannot vouch if the air temp was freezing or remained freezing the whole time.

Iceman
2007-08-01, 23:42
Ya', I know I am a sitting duck on this one.... The crummy Everest climbers freeze to death, dehydrate and stay frozen forever, no predation or scavenging at altitude. Who knows, maybe a cold spell when Icy1 died, but I guess my point is, "who the f knows?"

I am totally comfortable with not knowing the future. Global warmists have just gotta know the future. They gotta tell you what it is. I don't know, and you don't know is more plausible to me.

My assertions dont hold well to the flame. So be it. Sounded good to me...

Here is my proposal; All of those who believe that global warming is happening, and that it is human caused, should all self castrate themselves so as not to excasperate the problem with more children polluting the earth. Maybe they should all just end it now? Think of the carbon offset they would get for that! If the warmists all joined together and gave up their cars, shut off their gas oil and electricity, they could solve global worrying in one swoop. They won't.

GGS
2007-08-02, 01:00
Man once killed the caribou recklessly. Their numbers seemed infinite. Man once cut down the old growth forests recklessly. They seemed infinite.

Now precious few of both remain.

Maybe Al Gore IS nuts. However if history is to teach us anything a little global awareness - even overkill - isn't a bad thing.

TeeDee
2007-08-02, 17:14
Ya', I know I am a sitting duck on this one.... The crummy Everest climbers freeze to death, dehydrate and stay frozen forever, no predation or scavenging at altitude. Who knows, maybe a cold spell when Icy1 died, but I guess my point is, "who the f knows?"

I am totally comfortable with not knowing the future. Global warmists have just gotta know the future. They gotta tell you what it is. I don't know, and you don't know is more plausible to me.

My assertions dont hold well to the flame. So be it. Sounded good to me...

Here is my proposal; All of those who believe that global warming is happening, and that it is human caused, should all self castrate themselves so as not to excasperate the problem with more children polluting the earth. Maybe they should all just end it now? Think of the carbon offset they would get for that! If the warmists all joined together and gave up their cars, shut off their gas oil and electricity, they could solve global worrying in one swoop. They won't.

Ohh - I wasn't criticizing or saying you are/were right or wrong - the question just popped into my head - if there was a thaw in progress, how did he freeze, get buried in ice and get preserved?

As for the climbers on Everest - I have always been under the impression that it is mighty cold up there. Every time I see a picture of the climbers, they have have on more clothing than I own. The people who like to do that sort of thing are always warning against getting trapped at high altitude by sudden storms and essentially getting frozen in place.

Yes, you don't have to be frozen to be preserved. I believe they have found dehydrated carcasses in the Sahara. The animal gets dehydrated and buried in the sand before anything that would eat it, finds it. Not sure about that.

The air at high altitude is going to be dry because of the very low temperatures - really cold air cannot hold much moisture. But then if it is that cold, wouldn't your body freeze before being dehydrated? It would take a very long time for really cold air to dehydrate a dead body due to evaporation. Evaporation doesn't work too good at really cold temperatures.

So dehydration from either really hot air is possible or really cold air theoretically maybe.

But then another questions pops up - if the iceman died and was dehydrated and thus preserved and then frozen and buried by a glacier, how? The glacier must have grown around the person and not moved over him - a moving glacier would grind the body to fine dust. If the glacier grew over him, then it would have been a period or re-glaciation which takes a long time, much, much longer than the human life span. So it seems he would have had to die at a time when the glaciation period was in full swing and the snow/ice building fast to effectively bury him fast enough to preserve him.

The simplest answer would simply be that he was some poor guy trying to get from point A to point B in what seemed the shortest distance in order to save time. His wife was pregnant and the nearest witch-doctor was in another village on the other side of the mountain perhaps? He mistook the supplies he would need and/or got trapped by a sudden storm and died of exposure, the body froze and was quickly buried and thus preserved.

All those questions - see what you started IceMan?

By the by, did you lift your name from the poor guy??

Iceman
2007-08-02, 23:46
He is one of my heroes.....hunter, hiker, carried all sorts of cool stuff for his day.....he had a bunch of broken bones that healed, even had a broken off arrow tip in a bone as I recall....just like me, me like him, except for the arrow...

Ya, I agree he probably died, froze, dehydrated and was burried after successive years of snow. They can age glaciers this way...layers.....

Gotta go, three days of bear hunting here I come! Leave at 3am! Must load and get sleep...

dropkick
2007-08-03, 01:38
How did the woolly mammoths freeze?
They have found several that had no decomposition, all of who died suddenly.
According to the experts the lack of decomp means they had to flash freeze.
(Birds Eye Frozen Foods Company, calculated a sudden fall to below -100C)
They were found in a standing position many with buttercups and grass in their mouths, which indicates a sudden death.
Also they had to stay frozen condition until found.
But if they died with food in their mouths that means they were on a feeding ground, which has to be warm enough to grow the foodstuffs.
Even if there was a sudden downdraft of supercooled air that froze and killed them in an instant, why didn't they thaw the next spring?

?????????????

Take-a-knee
2007-08-03, 23:00
TeeDee, the key to "safe" suburban bowhunting is to only take a shot from an elevated stand, if you miss the arrow will hit the ground 5-10 yds beyond the target. I wasn't accusing you and being an anti-hunting whacko, but you live with a lot of them, so do people from NJ, DE, MA, CT, and NYC.