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Inimicus
2007-09-13, 09:58
Yay or Nay?

Ive been contemplating packing my 9mm with me but almost without exception everywhere I go hiking/camping explicitly forbids firearms. Ive been thinking its better to pay a fine than to be a bear snack. After reading several threads I'm left with the impression that some of you guys take your weapons in spite of the regulations.

Is carrying just one of the things people do but don't talk about?

CoyoteWhips
2007-09-13, 11:29
I don't think there will ever be a consensus on this. People who pack a firearm will pack it and people who don't carry less weight. The odds you'll be attacked or killed by a bear don't change by any appreciable margin either way.

My personal opinion: gun don't keep you warm at night.

Iceman
2007-09-13, 12:06
Go concealed if you have to.

Lone Wolf
2007-09-13, 12:10
bears are the least of your worries. be more wary of humans. i don't carry but know quite a few that do. whatever works for you. just don't advertise

Spice1
2007-09-13, 12:11
Leave the 9 at home. All it's going to do is piss off a bear. If you have a firearm that could actually wound a bear, go for it. I quit hiking and camping on established trails for now, since all I run into are idiot humans and their resulting mess and noise and I've got over 300,000 acres to explore, a few feet from my front door. Now if you were honstely worried about 2 legged predators, the 9 might do some good, but I personally could never pull a gun on a person.

That said, I've got my 20ga and 30.06 right behind the door to my cabin with little red tags hanging from the barrels that read, "F*&KING LOADED!" When I get up there with friends, the first thing I do is unload the shotty, as it doesn't have a safety. I doubt any of my friends could figure out the safety on my weird rifle. Fast, but obscure. ;)

They are more for the mountain lions than the bear though. If I have to head into the valley after dark (which I've only done once) I carry the rifle with me. I saw the mountain lion a few weeks ago, and it was much larger, faster and quieter than I expected. I'm not scared of an attack, I don't look much like a deer, but I know she's got the advantage at night, so I like to level the field. . .

GGS
2007-09-13, 15:11
I don't think there will ever be a consensus on this. People who pack a firearm will pack it and people who don't carry less weight. The odds you'll be attacked or killed by a bear don't change by any appreciable margin either way.

My personal opinion: gun don't keep you warm at night.

I'm with CoyoteWhips.

SGT Rock
2007-09-13, 22:17
Probably not needed.

Redleg
2007-09-13, 22:18
I have a dog to keep my feet warm. For peace of mind stay alert and plan proactively.

It's amazing how much more beauty you can see while looking for Cat, Bear, Boar and two legged maggots.
jaf

For more, see threads:

http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1024
http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2226
http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=923

Mutinousdoug
2007-09-14, 00:00
As Sgt Rock says: "probably not needed".
That said, I have more faith in the thoughtful use of a 9mm than Mr Spice1 has. If you do not have occasion to use your piece and don't make an ass of your self, no one will know you are carrying; a park ranger is not going to search you unless you act REALLY funny. If you do come upon a situation that requires you to decide to use a prohibited object in a National Park; you are "goin' to have some 'splaining to do" to the Feds. And rightly so...
Do what makes you comfortable, but be aware of the ramifications of your decisions. Life lessons.:bandit:

Iceman
2007-09-14, 00:26
personally could never pull a gun on a person....
. .

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Surely you jest. Never? Not to protect yourself or another?

dropkick
2007-09-14, 02:02
I carry when I feel the need.
Lately it's been to protect my dog from wolves.
The majority of the time when hiking I'd rather not carry, due to weight and comfort considerations. But I have carried some form of firearm with me on many hiking trips and I always have one when camping.

Where I live (Montana) carrying a concealed weapon in the woods isn't against the law, and most of the people who live here don't have a problem with people who do carry. -Though with all the new people moving in from out of state that may change.

When I was growing up I knew of very few households that didn't have at least a rifle in it, whether they hunted or not.
Because of this, and also because my families views I was trained from a very young age in their safe handling and use.
I am always surprised at how many people aren't.

A weapon is a tool and you can either use it correctly or abuse its' use and give everyone who uses it correctly a black eye.

-sorry didn't mean to lecture - got carried away

Inimicus
2007-09-14, 09:34
Ive got my concealed carry permit so Im pretty comfortable with the idea of dont advertise and little will come of it. The question was more of a philisophical one than asking for advice though, but I do appriciate the advice just the same.

I've read a lot of gear lists and as one might expect I've never seen anyone account for the poundage of their sidearm and ammo. That combined with reading a post or two here and assorted articles and postings other places I started to think that maybe people were toting their weapons and it was just something we didnt talk about.

For the record, Ill leave mine behind. Im having a hard enough time keeping my weight in a range that Im happy with.


Im really new to all of this (leaving on my first multiday backbacking trip in a few hours) so please forgive me if I ask stupid questions or prattle on about insignificant subjects from time to time.

Turk
2007-09-14, 18:22
Oh lord don't get me started on gear lists.......
Personally, I have seen MAYBE 3 honest, and literal gear lists.

Some commonly omitted items you almost never see in an ultralight fanatics
gear list and yet somehow find it hard to believe they never carry any
of them:

Extra batteries
Camera's, related equipment, related storage
Music players, headphones, storage
Firearms, ammo, related storage
phones, related storage
radios
wallets
keys
I.D.
Money
prescription medication
GPS devices
MAPS!!!!!
books
paper,pens,pencils
a watch
cleaning sponge or cloth
extra ziplock or garbage bags

Okay .... sorry I didn't want to get on a rant. Thats just off the top
of my head in 10 seconds or less. I am sure I could come up with
pant loads more. I have much more respect for people that aren't
out to prove anything with their gear list and aren't trying to show
a stripped down bare essentials lists to win a male ego pissing contest.

To me a gearlist is about as useful as a weather report for Cambodia
3 weeks ago.
I really don't give a damn whats in your pack. Carry cinder blocks
for all I care. Or construct a pack entirely out of tissue paper and
fill it with helium. So long as I am not carrying anyone elses gear..
im good.

As far as firearms go.... I would love to see some larger caliber
versions get the Henry Survival Rifle treatment. Would be very
cool to see some high tech ultralight mods for larger rifles. Ya....
a carbon fibre, 3 piece take-down pump action 12 gauge. *drool*
with some kind of built in dry ammo storage ... and waterproof it.

Having any kind of hand gun would be pretty silly up here. You just
don't run into many people on a trail period. I guess things are different
in the states.

Geo.
2007-09-14, 20:53
Unless specifically hunting as opposed to hiking, I'd rather do without the weight, or else carry the extra weight in food/water.
The other thing I'd think, the majority of dangerous encounters are likely to be surprise ones, (for both parties) and if you're in an area that requires carrying a 'concealed' weapon, a pissed off bear/cougar isn't going to wait for you to 'unconceal' it before it has a go at sampling you.
In the past 100yrs (since 1900) there have only been just over 50 recorded deaths by black bear attack and slightly less than this by brown bear, so the odds of having your day ruined are not too great. (Though you've gotta hope the bears understand this) ;)

Mutinousdoug
2007-09-14, 23:51
Regarding Turk's "not included list" the only things on that list I don't regularly bring along are the music players, phones and radios.
What I invariably have along in addition to a firearm, is fishing tackle, which is not so heavy as awkward and fragile.
Turk,
Are there Grouse where you hike to hunt, in season, if you were to jump through the necessary hoops to procure the appropriate license? I assume squirrel and rabbit/hare are a given?

Take-a-knee
2007-09-15, 00:37
Geo, I must take exception to your assumption that you will never have time to bring a weapon to bear on a large bruin. Bears don't hunt humans, they see us as interlopers, much the same as they do another bear and they usually bluster before they charge. A cougar is a different story, if you are on a trail and a cougar is waiting to pounce on you, you'll never know what hit you...unless he misses. I question your statistics on fatalities from bear attacks, I don't doubt you read that somewhere, I just smell Greenpeace/Earth First.

As for handguns being useless against bears, I'll bet the old guy walking his dog on one of the tank trails at Ft. Richardson Alaska several years ago wouldn't agree. He turned a close-range charge of a large (it was recovered by DNR) grizzly with several well-placed 44mag rounds from a S&W 629 (smart choice).

dropkick
2007-09-15, 01:15
Having any kind of hand gun would be pretty silly up here. You just
don't run into many people on a trail period. I guess things are different
in the states.
Turk, I can't blame you for having a backwards view on handguns as you are from a country which has what is an overall birdbrained view on firearms.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1165284/canadaamericashat.jpg
Handguns aren't just for personal defense against other people.
If I was to run into an angry bear/cougar/rattlesnake on the trail I'd much rather have a pistol on my hip where I could get at it quickly than a rifle/shotgun stowed in or tied to my pack.

As it is lighter weight and more comfortable to carry a person is more likely to be carrying it when it might be needed. And this might be a broken leg instead of an animal attack - 3 shots in the air is the commonly known SOS - the sound carries further than a whistle and people normally pay more attention to it.

Also as I have used handguns for a while I'd be comfortable taking game with mine up to about 100 feet away - and I'm no sharpshooter.
While this isn't that far away it's more than close enough for me to get squirrels, gophers, grouse, or any other small game I might need in an emergency.

Geo.
2007-09-15, 02:02
Geo, I must take exception to your assumption that you will never have time to bring a weapon to bear on a large bruin. Bears don't hunt humans, they see us as interlopers, much the same as they do another bear and they usually bluster before they charge. A cougar is a different story, if you are on a trail and a cougar is waiting to pounce on you, you'll never know what hit you...unless he misses. I question your statistics on fatalities from bear attacks, I don't doubt you read that somewhere, I just smell Greenpeace/Earth First.

Hello Take-a-knee,
Didn't say you'd never have time to deploy a weapon - I was just pointing out that a necessarily concealed weapon (in a pack?) might well be not accessible quickly enough, even with an initial feint charge. (if you're hunched over digging in your pack bruin might just keep coming)
And, as you say, a cougar attack will likely be a surprise attack - again the weapon would be of no use.

Figures for bear attacks HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade)

I'd have no qualms about dropping an animal that was threatening me and I have been in a situation where I'd have felt a lot better 'tooled up', but weighing things up, as I said before, unless I was hunting, I'd rather dump the weight. That's just my opinion, if carrying a weapon when not needed to score tucker makes someone happier then so be it.

dropkick
2007-09-15, 02:04
In the past 100yrs (since 1900) there have only been just over 50 recorded deaths by black bear attack and slightly less than this by brown bear, so the odds of having your day ruined are not too great. (Though you've gotta hope the bears understand this) ;)
These statistics are right.

There have only been approximately* 52 recorded deaths due to black bear from 1900 till 2002 and there have also been approximately* 50 recorded deaths due to brown bears in this same time period.
-They split these statistics for some reason though most people consider the black and the brown together as a group.

However this doesn't take into account grizzly bear attacks (we just had a grizzly attack a man about 70 miles from here) or non fatal attacks.

Even if I survive the mauling I'd rather not be mauled at all.
And while I might be in more danger from the traffic on the drive to the trail head I'm still going to consider the possibility and at least carry bear spray.

-I've had 2 friends that I grew up with attacked by bears, and I've lost personal property to bear damage. The possibility is there.

*Prior to the 1970's bear attacks were not well documented

Geo.
2007-09-15, 02:59
However this doesn't take into account grizzly bear attacks (we just had a grizzly attack a man about 70 miles from here) or non fatal attacks.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I go the impression from that article that they meant grizzlies were part of the '50' figure quoted for brown bears, as grizzlies are a species of the brown bear. (the largest)


Even if I survive the mauling I'd rather not be mauled at all.
Amen to that! ;)

dropkick
2007-09-15, 19:38
Maybe I'm wrong, but I go the impression from that article that they meant grizzlies were part of the '50' figure quoted for brown bears, as grizzlies are a species of the brown bear. (the largest)

My bad.

Couldn't find the page where I got my statistics (a problem with using more than one search engine). However as they are basically the same on the Wikipedia page you provided I'd say they probably came from the same source and I missed the part where they included the grizzly in with the brown bear.
--You would think I would have known it myself, as I live in bear territory and see bear every year. duh

Did find this on another site:
This number (fatal attacks by black bear) is very minimal compared to the over 500 conflicts between black bears and humans from 1960 to 1980.
-Once again I'll say it "I wouldn't like being mauled, even if I did survive"

I also read that black bear attacks happen much more often than grizzly attacks but around half of the grizzly attacks were fatal while less than 1/4 of the black bear attacks were.
On the other hand a black bear is more likely to hunt you as food while a grizzly is usually just annoyed at you.

As you go through the sites the math doesn't really add up and the sites that offer statistics have slightly different numbers.

I can remember reading an Outdoor Life article several years ago where the author was trying to say grizzlies were safer than black bear and I know the fatal attack statistics in it were much higher than this.
(I remember this article because the authors' argument was flawed and he disproved the point he was trying to make in his own article. - For some reason this has stuck in my head for about 30 years.)

The article or my memory might be flawed but I've found bad statistics before on wolf sites and this reminds me of that. The numbers had been changed to support the people who wanted reintroduction (some of them gov't). Grizzly reintroduction is a big topic around here now.

With the internet once someone puts out bad statistics and people start quoting them the bad numbers spread like wildfire and before long you don't know what to trust.

-I do know for a fact that the Forest Service suppressed bear attack news around the national parks in the 50's 60's and 70's so it wouldn't impact tourism. (I have many relatives in the F.S., both currently and retired)

Once again the numbers could be correct, but I wouldn't be shocked if they weren't.

dropkick
2007-09-15, 19:49
After reading several bear sites and associated big cat sites, I've decided to hike in full body armor and surround my camp with concertina wire.

Iceman
2007-09-16, 00:35
Call me a wuss, but all I know is that I sleep better with a magnum laying nearby.

FanaticFringer
2007-09-16, 10:06
Unless specifically hunting as opposed to hiking, I'd rather do without the weight, or else carry the extra weight in food/water.
The other thing I'd think, the majority of dangerous encounters are likely to be surprise ones, (for both parties) and if you're in an area that requires carrying a 'concealed' weapon, a pissed off bear/cougar isn't going to wait for you to 'unconceal' it before it has a go at sampling you.
In the past 100yrs (since 1900) there have only been just over 50 recorded deaths by black bear attack and slightly less than this by brown bear, so the odds of having your day ruined are not too great. (Though you've gotta hope the bears understand this) ;)

Only 50?..... That's more than I would have thought.

CoyoteWhips
2007-09-16, 10:33
As for handguns being useless against bears, I'll bet the old guy walking his dog on one of the tank trails at Ft. Richardson Alaska several years ago wouldn't agree. He turned a close-range charge of a large (it was recovered by DNR) grizzly with several well-placed 44mag rounds from a S&W 629 (smart choice).

There was that Marine who recently killed a bear with a chunk of cord wood. Still, I wouldn't recommend carrying a log.

I'm all about weight vs risk. I don't carry a gun for bears. I don't carry a defibrillator for heart attack. I do carry some moleskin for blisters.

It's all about the odds.

Living in an area with aggressive trash fed bears changes the odds. I think the one time you should always carry a gun, in case of bear, is if you're a ranger looking for a bad bear.

Fortunately, that's not my job.

CaSteve
2007-09-16, 21:49
I agree.

Most of the critters out there don't want confrontation. Yesterday I encountered a mountain lion on the trail. Two weeks ago I saw a black bear. In each instance the animals seemed more surprised than me & took off.

SGT Rock
2007-09-17, 02:33
Cameras work better

pure_mahem
2007-09-17, 03:35
I carry and haven't had any issues, but then again it's also legal to carry concealed in Vermont with no added permit.

pure mahem also thinks to him self...a bearskin although heavy would make an awesome under quilt for hammock incredibly warm I would think. May even be able to make the hammock from the bear skin. A Second bear skin would be nice quilt or maybe cougar for warmer weather.

It all has a true mountain man feel to it!

Iceman
2007-09-17, 09:40
Heck, maybe you could just hike in the whole skin....:evil:

deadeye
2007-09-17, 09:43
Call me a wuss, but all I know is that I sleep better with a magnum laying nearby.

Sure, but is your wife always with you??!!:aetsch:

wawatusi
2007-09-17, 16:10
Heck, maybe you could just hike in the whole skin....:evil:




As some sort of Cougabear?

Rosaleen
2007-09-17, 18:56
My husband thinks I'm "armed and dangerous" at all times. I'm a menopausal redhead...

A Park Service cop tried to talk me into carrying some sort of firearm when I was AT bound. After much nagging, I picked up some pepper spray. Guns for 4 legged varmints are not likely to be needed on the AT, at least. Funny about the NPS cop, as another one was adamant that even pepper spray is not allowed in national parks. The second one is technically correct, and while I was and am not going to carry LEAD, of all things, the friendly cop with the paternal advice was fond of saying, "Better judged by 12 than carried by 6."
Puts an interesting spin on things, huh?

Rosaleen

SGT Rock
2007-09-17, 20:37
Sor of like a skeerdywolfbear - a rarely seen creature that inhabits the southern woods.

pure_mahem
2007-09-17, 20:48
Can't completely hike in skins when getting close with the wife could be mistaken for a bear/cougar attack and be shot bot a trigger happy concealed weapon carrying passing hiker who once said he wasn't taking any chances you never know when you may need a gun.

LMFAO!

Iceman
2007-09-17, 23:33
Exactly....heh' heh' heh'...

dropkick
2007-09-18, 01:02
Some of us already have to work really hard to look like an fully evolved human.
Dressing up in skins would just add to the problem.




Rosaleen,
For a reason that makes sense to you alone, have you tried to kill or maim your husband yet?
If not he should count his blessings, he married a mellow redhead.
---I was married to a redhead once.

Rosaleen
2007-09-18, 02:50
Hmm! Maybe I should "plead the fifth!" <w>

I could say that I've THOUGHT about it, but haven't figured out how to avoid getting caught...

We are both good shots, but I will grant that he is better than I in that regard, so that can't work.

Picture tempermental but patient. This could be really scary, because instead of blowing up on the spot, I can simmer and strike when I'm good and ready. Delayed gratification and all that.

Rosaleen




Rosaleen,
For a reason that makes sense to you alone, have you tried to kill or maim your husband yet?
If not he should count his blessings, he married a mellow redhead.
---I was married to a redhead once.

Iceman
2007-09-18, 10:09
Scary. Really....:afraid: Women should be feared....

dixicritter
2007-09-18, 12:50
Scary. Really....:afraid: Women should be feared....

Especially the redheaded ones... :gob_chick

Rosaleen
2007-09-18, 18:35
Allright Dixicritter!

You GO, Girl!

Rosaleen

(Redheads stick together!)

TeeDee
2007-09-18, 21:24
Just heard on the news about bears in the Lake Tahoe area invading homes.

One announcer said "very quickly" that some of the people are getting those paintball rifles ....
.
.
.
.

equipped with
.
.
.
.
.
.

paintballs filled with a very potent form of pepper spray.

Seemed like that would work pretty well.

Pop a bear with 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or ... paintballs filled with some very strong pepper spray and that should change his or her mind.

dropkick
2007-09-19, 01:51
I wonder how much those pepperballs cost?
And would they work well with my slingshot?

I used to have a holster that was made to hold my slingshot.
If I could find my slingshot and the holster it could make a neat addition to my arsenal.

Up until sometime around 9th grade I used to carry it quite often. It was a folding competition slingshot and I was deadly with it. I killed many gophers with it.

Would be much happier with my pistol if I was to meet a bear, but it might be just the ticket if I ran into wolves with my dog.

SGT Rock
2007-09-19, 07:56
I have one of those things too. I used to be hot shit with it

Iceman
2007-09-19, 09:19
Can you imagine accidently exploding an oleoresin pepper ball against the upright of your slingshot? This could be a problem....

dropkick
2007-09-20, 02:22
Can you imagine accidently exploding an oleoresin pepper ball against the upright of your slingshot? This could be a problem....
Don't think that would ever happen.....though I did accidentally empty a keychain size canister of pepper spray in a friends' kitchen once.

Moved everyone out of the kitchen quickly.

--If they didn't want these accidents to happen they shouldn't have left it lying around where I could get a hold of it.

oops56
2007-09-20, 02:54
Boy i guess i wont let in my House. Black power alcohol fuel some guns bow arrow knifes oh yes the wife. Cause you cant heep your hands of things.:afraid: :afraid:

Ron Haven
2007-09-21, 00:05
bears are the least of your worries. be more wary of humans. i don't carry but know quite a few that do. whatever works for you. just don't advertiseI'm like you on that one LWolf.I may see different one day but so far I have never seen an aggressive bear before although I have encountered a few in the past.There is one thing more dangerous.Although most dogs are friendly and I love dogs very much I have seen seen aggressive dogs.I had a hiker from Florida I was shuttling from Winding Stair to Blue Ridge Gap.This dog was trying break loose in the van to bite me.This is scary.People like this shouldn't be on the trail and I told them so but I can't make the laws.

BillyBob58
2007-10-01, 10:26
As far as firearms go.... I would love to see some larger caliber
versions get the Henry Survival Rifle treatment. Would be very
cool to see some high tech ultralight mods for larger rifles. Ya....
a carbon fibre, 3 piece take-down pump action 12 gauge. *drool*
with some kind of built in dry ammo storage ... and waterproof it.

Having any kind of hand gun would be pretty silly up here. You just
don't run into many people on a trail period. I guess things are different
in the states.

Yes, that sounds great, some sort of ultra lite 12 gauge designed for backpacking. The recoil would be fierce, I imagine, but it wouldn't be like you were planning on shooting it more than enough to get familiar with it- emergency use only. My son has a ultralight ( titanium?) 44 mag that has gone on several trips with us out west. It's a good it lighter than my Ruger Security 6 357 mag. We more often than not pack the extra weight as part of group gear, especially when we go to Griz country. But even here in the deep south, we have had several maulings and deaths from black bears, apparently predatory, in the last several years.

And though there may be few people on the Canadian trails, the wildlife is still something to consider. There was an article in Backpacker several years ago on this subject. It included a recounting by a man (and his wife I think) who were canoeing somewhere in western Canada wilderness. ( Details?- can't remember all) They have a long portage. They become aware that a black bear is very quietly following them, and don't think much of it at first. They "shoo" it off. At the next break, they are aware the bear is back and closer. This scenario repeats itself several times over several miles, each time with escalating violence being required on their parts to chase the bear off, which they are now watching for very carefully- rocks being thrown, etc. The bear is always trying to stay hidden in the brush, but closer each time. I can't remember if bear pepper spray was ever in the picture. Finally the 12 gauge comes out and warning shots are fired, which at first work to scare the bear off, but he always comes back. Finally, they kill the bear, which ran off after they shot it. They found it dead a few hundred yards from the place of shooting. They were pretty bummed out about it if memory serves.

During the next months letters to the editor, there were some condemnatory letters from readers. Including a couple of women (sisters? friends? lovers?) calling them murderers. They felt if the shooters were going to go to the bears land, they should be willing to die rather than hurt the bear. I think Timothy Treadwell felt the same, wouldn't even take bear spray, and he finally (and his girlfriend too, who had finally agreed to go with him) both became bear food.

The recent evidence I've seen seems to indicate that black bears in the wild are actually more predatory towards humans than Griz are, though a Griz is more likely to attack out of temper or defence or cub protection. The only question is: does the BB fear the human enough that he won't chance an encounter and will run away. I think that's the case 99+ % of the time, but not always. There was yet another recent b.bear attack on a mountain biker in WA. as well as an 11 year old snatched from his family's tent and killed in Utah. They found his body about 400 yards from the tent. And mountain lions have their occasional attacks also. Joggers and mountain bikers seem to be popular targets, and children, of course.

BillyBob58
2007-10-01, 10:46
These statistics are right.

There have only been approximately* 52 recorded deaths due to black bear from 1900 till 2002 and there have also been approximately* 50 recorded deaths due to brown bears in this same time period.
-They split these statistics for some reason though most people consider the black and the brown together as a group.

However this doesn't take into account grizzly bear attacks (we just had a grizzly attack a man about 70 miles from here) or non fatal attacks.

Even if I survive the mauling I'd rather not be mauled at all.
And while I might be in more danger from the traffic on the drive to the trail head I'm still going to consider the possibility and at least carry bear spray.

-I've had 2 friends that I grew up with attacked by bears, and I've lost personal property to bear damage. The possibility is there.

*Prior to the 1970's bear attacks were not well documented

Now that is interesting, dropkick. Just how many friends do you have that have been murdered? More, equal or less? I have often argued that the odds are not as great against animal attack as many argue. It's hard not to compare apples and oranges instead of apples to apples. How many people in the USA and Canada live with murderers within a mile or so of them, 24/7/365, and take some precautions as a result? Such as locking doors and not going to the places where the murderers might be, at night, flashing a lot of cash? And how many of us spend time every day in a vehicle? As compared to the humans who hike alone a small part of the year, deep in bear country. hmmm. It's really hard to make a direct comparison of odds, it has always seemed to me.

It would seem to me that based on the amount of exposure to risk, and if there was actually more danger from humans in the city or on the trail, than from bears/lions on the trail only, that you should have many, many times more friends who have been murdered or severely injured by assault by humans than by bears. Just based on amount of exposure to each risk. Just something to consider, though possibly totally invalid. The odds of being struck by lightening are pretty low, but we all take precautions against that. Most of us are not going to tempt fate by hiking on an exposed ridge in a storm, if we can help it. So allowing for possible defence against animal attack seems prudent to me, but to each his own. And sometimes I go defenceless, mainly cause I hate the weight.

Bear
2007-10-01, 13:29
Now that is interesting, dropkick. Just how many friends do you have that have been murdered? More, equal or less? I have often argued that the odds are not as great against animal attack as many argue. It's hard not to compare apples and oranges instead of apples to apples. How many people in the USA and Canada live with murderers within a mile or so of them, 24/7/365, and take some precautions as a result? Such as locking doors and not going to the places where the murderers might be, at night, flashing a lot of cash? And how many of us spend time every day in a vehicle? As compared to the humans who hike alone a small part of the year, deep in bear country. hmmm. It's really hard to make a direct comparison of odds, it has always seemed to me.


That is why I carry my Colt 45 1911 in my truck. It is my "American Express Card" DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT!!!

dropkick
2007-10-02, 01:07
Actually, as far as I know I've never had a friend murdered.

I have met in passing 2 people that later went to jail for murder, and had one friend who I believe murdered someone (don't know for sure and never asked him, but I'm still pretty sure).

So I'll count that as 3 points for the humans.

I've been shot at once and had a gun pointed at me with bad intent on another occasion.
I've been run over by a hit and run driver.

So that makes 6 points total in the human column.

I won't count the bear chewing up my cooler while I watched, or or the one that broke into my cabin and trashed it, as those weren't attacks on people.

But I've had 2 friends attacked by bears and I've been stalked by a cougar, I'll count those.

That makes 3 points for the animals.

So it ends at 6 to 3 humans.

On the other hand I spend about 90% of my time in the company of humans, so the odds that I'll have more problems with them are stacked in their favor.

I think I'll continue to worry a little bit about bears in the woods.

Iceman
2007-10-02, 10:59
I think it all depends on the person. Regarding crimes like assault, I personally do not believe that I am someone who would be targetted for assault, because of the way I carry myself, I am aggressive, aware...over 300lbs...I am going to be trouble for someone who intends to rob me.....I ain't going easy. Murder on the otherhand is more of a "personal thing". Most murders occur in the home, wife vs husband, etc.... Or street crime...gangbanger vs gangbanger...

Hikers and hunters pose a unique opportunity for a predator. Haven't heard of many attacks on a group of hikers... Usually, predator attacks on humans are one cat on one hiker...one bear vs one mountainbiker...probably mostly caused by the element of surprise, we surprised them...

Since I hunt and hike alone, you know I am going to carry. When we snowshoe as a family, I always carry since we have alot of cougars concentrated in these areas at that time of year... But I doubt that we will encounter a cat due to the amount of noise we make as a group. On the otherhand, when I am sitting in snow camo, using my distress call trying to get a cougar to move in, I keep my handgun handy as well as my rifle. Back against a tree.

I guess I carry my handgun when hiking for anything unknown, makes me feel safer. Sort of funny, but I have always felt more risk as I approach the last few hundred yards of trail, and near the parked cars...this is where I expect trouble. Sort of a sad state.... I make sure my holster is clear as I expect human contact....

turtleman
2007-10-02, 18:40
Personally, I like to carry the light weight and loud firecrackers available in SC. Works with any critter, especially one that's heard someone hunting before, plus makes the occasion a bit festive...

Mutinousdoug
2007-10-02, 19:14
Personally, I like to carry the light weight and loud firecrackers available in SC. Works with any critter, especially one that's heard someone hunting before, plus makes the occasion a bit festive...

While my Dad was trout fishing in Alaska (years ago) a cow moose stepped into the stream quite close to him. As Dad exited the stream the moose approached too close for comfort, so he shot his pistol over it's head in order to distract/chase it away (9mm USAF service hard ball: would be about as effective as a firecracker had he been trying to kill it). It immediately charged him and probably would have stomped him good had she not noticed that she was now between Dad and her calf (which had not been the case when they first met.)
Trying to scare a dangerous animal without some backup may have unintended consequence.
YMMV

BillyBob58
2007-10-02, 20:02
.......................................
So it ends at 6 to 3 humans.

On the other hand I spend about 90% of my time in the company of humans, so the odds that I'll have more problems with them are stacked in their favor.

I think I'll continue to worry a little bit about bears in the woods.

Sounds reasonable to me!

BillyBob58
2007-10-02, 20:21
..........Trying to scare a dangerous animal without some backup may have unintended consequence.
YMMV


I had an acquaintance, a helicopter pilot ( recently killed in a crash, piloting an emergency hospital EMS helicopter) who used to fly up in Alaska. I think it had something to do with exploring for the Alaska pipeline, I think. Or something like that over 20 years ago. He told of setting down once, getting out and walking some distance from the copters. They saw a couple of Griz that seemed to be heading in their direction. They fired a high powered rifle to scare them off. That just seemed to get their attention, making them head in their direction with more determination. They fired multiple times while trying to get back to the helicopter, with no effect at all. They finally ended up shooting both griz. That's the story he told, anyway.

I know of another backpacker who packs as 12 gauge cut to the minimum legal length, and he's not worried about bears or lions. He was hiking in a New Mexico wilderness area 20 years ago, on his way out to the car. A few miles to go, he comes up on a bunch of hells Angel types on their cycles. They had ignored the wilderness sign and rode their bikes in as far as the terrain would allow. They gave him and his hiking partner ( friend, wife, girlfriend? can't remember) quite a hard time and he feared for his life. From that time on, the shortened 12 gauge was his hiking companion, strapped to his external frame pack.

Iceman
2007-10-02, 23:39
... From that time on, the shortened 12 gauge was his hiking companion, strapped to his external frame pack.

I love that guy! :biggrin:

pure_mahem
2007-10-02, 23:54
Where did I put that hacksaw?...

Take-a-knee
2007-10-03, 00:51
Remember Randy Weaver Mayhem, he unintentionally cut a shotgun barrel 1/4in too short. That resulted in his wife being murdered by an FBI sniper.

pure_mahem
2007-10-03, 02:57
I'ld like to know how they could tell from the sniper's point of view,lol. Sounds like a cover up to me,lol.

Ain't gotta worry about cutting the shotgun I'll save that for another day, I gotta a early B-Day present!

dropkick
2007-10-04, 02:30
I just went to Helena, Montana (state capital) today (3 hours to get there, 3 hours to get back - my glutes hurt). Stopped off at a camper/trailer dealership while I was there and was talking to a dealer.

He told me a story about a friend of his waking up to find a black bear on top of his camper trying to come in through the roof vent story here (www.helenair.com/articles/2007/08/11/montana/c01081107_08.txt). I thought this wasn't a great story for a trailer salesman to be telling his potential customers. - Didn't bother me but still........

It's a pretty good story, the man finally chased off the bear with a homemade flame thrower.

What really interested me though was his stories about vicious mule deer.
I knew the number of mule deer inside the city limits of Helena was getting to be a problem (much like white tail in my area), but what I didn't know was that they were getting combative.

He said his wife won't take the trash out alone in the evening for fear of them. That she got chased back into the house once. Also he said one of his neighbors spent 2 hours trapped by them underneath an R.V.

It's Bambi's Revenge!!!

kmat
2007-10-04, 15:11
Check out the Taurus brand pistol "The Judge." .45 cal Long Colt or .410 mag five shot revolver.

Nightwalker
2007-10-04, 22:31
Bears don't hunt humans...

Occasionally they do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade)...

Nightwalker
2007-10-04, 22:32
Call me a wuss, but all I know is that I sleep better with a magnum laying nearby.

I'd rather have a 'fraidy-cat dog and faith. YMMV, professional driver on closed course, HYOH, etc., etc.

Nightwalker
2007-10-04, 22:36
Allright Dixicritter!

You GO, Girl!

Rosaleen

(Redheads stick together!)

What are you saying, there? DixiCritter is as sweet and mellow of a person as I know...
:afraid:

Nightwalker
2007-10-04, 22:41
Personally, I like to carry the light weight and loud firecrackers available in SC. Works with any critter, especially one that's heard someone hunting before, plus makes the occasion a bit festive...

I was at a shelter on the AT a few years ago with some wonderful nuts that pulled out a few firecrackers and shot them off right before they got in their bags for the night. Luckily, I saw them light up, as they didn't even warn anyone!

A man with PTSD does not need to have shots going off unexpectedly around him!