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SGT Rock
2011-08-02, 20:25
General Honoré was my last commander before I retired. We called him the Ragin' Cajun, but he always insisted that he was not a Cajun but mulatto. Anyhow, I always had a lot or respect for the man. You may remember him as the guy that was sent to fix the response to Katrina down in New Orleans and told one reporter he was "stuck on stupid".

qv5m4hTMuWU

Anyhow, I just read a piece from him:


For lesson in shared sacrifice, send Congress to boot camp
By Russel L. Honoré, Special to CNN
August 2, 2011 6:10 p.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
The debt-ceiling debate was infuriating and disappointing, says Russel L. Honoré

It's not just our image as a world leader that has been harmed. It's our nation itself, he says

Our national elected leaders don't share a common purpose, Honoré says
Honoré: Let's load them on troop planes and send them to Camp Shelby, Mississippi

Editor's note: Lt. Gen. Russel Honoré commanded the military response to Hurricane Katrina. He retired from the U.S. Army in 2008 after 37 years, sits on the board of the Stevenson Disaster Management Institute and is an adjunct professor at Emory and Vanderbilt universities. He is the author of "Survival: How a Culture of Preparedness Can Save America and You from Disasters."

(CNN) -- Like most veterans, the men and women who have worn our nation's uniform to defend this country, I am furious with and disappointed in the state of indecision that plagued Washington these past few weeks. Whether or not to raise the debt ceiling so our country can continue to pay our bills and maintain our global credit rating didn't seem like such a difficult decision.

As a retired, disabled soldier who spent 37 years in the Army, I can only see this debacle -- the weeks of haggling to get to an eleventh-hour deal -- as the definition of "mission failure." At this point, even the last-minute deal that is on its way to President Obama's desk will not repair the damage our elected leadership's amateur-hour, worthless grandstanding has caused.

And it's not just our image as a world leader that has been harmed. It's our nation itself.

Our nation won the Revolutionary War because we shared a common purpose: freedom. General Washington's ragtag army, 20% of whom were slaves, were poorly armed and trained, freezing and hungry, yet they defeated the most powerful military in the world. Those men and their families were willing to sacrifice, to risk their lives and everything they had, to achieve our nation's freedom. Now the country that generations of Americans have worked and fought for, that 1.3 million soldiers, marines, airmen, and sailors died fighting for, is at risk.

Why? Because our national elected leaders don't share a common purpose. They have failed to live up to their oaths of office, to protect and defend the Constitution and the United States of America. Instead they strike partisan poses they hope will be remembered during their next campaigns.

This isn't leadership, it's playacting. And we should all be disgusted.

The very notion that our federal government may not be able to pay its global debt is embarrassing, but it is shameful that our government has been willing to play games with the livelihoods of our active-duty soldiers, our veterans, and our most vulnerable citizens.

Our nation's government must remember its purpose: to keep this nation free. Many disabled veterans, the ones who are praying the check comes in the mail after all, can't work as result of injuries sustained on duty. They were willing to die to keep America free, and they sacrifice to this day. How many of the grandstanding clowns in Washington took a bullet in the name of freedom? Are they willing to sacrifice as much as the average National Guardsman does?

It's time to get draconian. But not with the helpless elderly who need their Social Security payments, not with the powerless Army private supporting a family. I mean it's time to load our elected officials on troop planes and send them to Camp Shelby, Mississippi. Put them in tents with no air conditioning, have Army drill sergeants teach them teamwork and physical sacrifice. When they recognize their responsibility to the people of America, they can return to D.C., their upscale restaurants, and military plane trips, as though they were royalty.

And if they can't? Better that they should fail to learn what an 18-year-old Army private understands than continue to fail America.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Russel L. Honore.

Rockhound
2011-08-02, 20:28
You just saw me log on and you're trolling.

Rockhound
2011-08-02, 20:30
"Why? Because our national elected leaders don't share a common purpose. They have failed to live up to their oaths of office, to protect and defend the Constitution and the United States of America. Instead they strike partisan poses they hope will be remembered during their next campaigns."


But the man speaks the truth. Hope he enjoys his retirement.

Lugnut
2011-08-02, 20:35
The General nailed it! :adore:

Skidsteer
2011-08-02, 20:35
General Honoré was my last commander before I retired. We called him the Ragin' Cajun, but he always insisted that he was not a Cajun but mulatto. Anyhow, I always had a lot or respect for the man. You may remember him as the guy that was sent to fix the response to Katrina down in New Orleans and told one reporter he was "stuck on stupid".

qv5m4hTMuWU

Anyhow, I just read a piece from him:

Amen!!

Weary
2011-08-02, 22:32
A great message, Sarge. I never took a bullet but I served my two years 60 years ago during Korea. And I've watched politics -- and occasionally even served -- for 70 years. The problem, I think, is that you need more than belief in a slogan to serve wisely, whether in a war or in Congress.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-02, 22:35
A great message, Sarge. I never took a bullet but I served my two years 60 years ago during Korea. And I've watched politics -- and occasionally even served -- for 70 years. The problem, I think, is that you need more than belief in a slogan to serve wisely, whether in a war or in Congress.

You mean like "Hope" and "Change"????

Sorry.....couldn't pass that up.

Weary
2011-08-02, 23:09
You mean like "Hope" and "Change"????

Sorry.....couldn't pass that up.
No. I mean intelligence and knowledge, and a willingness to study and learn the details of complex issues.

Debt is a serious issue. I've opposed government debt ever since I became seriously aware of politics. It made sense to me when Roosevelt was president when the country was in a depression, and then a major war. I saw no need for it during Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, and Bush one, all of whom built up deficits in relatively prosperous peace times.

I applauded Bill Clinton's balanced budget, and was appalled when Bush 2, reduced taxes while planning a war, under the guise that his war would be "off-budget."

The candidate who won on the promise of "hope and change" came into office facing enormous economic problems. He followed the advice of most leading economists, who said he needed to rescue the world's financial system, and quickly inject funds into the economy. He failed, mostly, I suspect, because he did not spend enough to kick start the needed jobs.

But I don't pretend to be an expert. I do know that it is irresponsible to refuse to pay for the bills that Congress had already approved, as a good part of the newly "conservative" Congress tried to do.

No label truly fits what has just happened -- other, then perhaps, "stupid."

SGT Rock
2011-08-02, 23:23
I looked into who voted no to see if anyone that represents me did. I planned to not vote for anyone that voted no. But my congressman and both senators voted yes. Good for them.

Tin Man
2011-08-02, 23:27
i gotta check my reps position... see which ones like eggs

woodsy
2011-08-03, 08:51
General Honore: And we should all be disgusted.

Thats putting it lightly.

Two Speed
2011-08-03, 08:55
Saw that article a day or two ago. Based on what I've seen so far I'd like to hear a bit more from the general. Not the most polished speaker, but seems to call them as he sees them.

That would make him a bit odd these days.

SGT Rock
2011-08-03, 11:59
He has been like that for years. He once wrote something about the procurement corps of the Army saddling us with stuff that didn't work well, broke easy, or cost way more than it should. They invited him to speak at their annual conference to explain his position better, probably hoping to put him on the spot.

His speech was this: "Stop buying stupid shit". End of speech.

D'Artagnan
2011-08-03, 14:44
Guys like Honore' are who we need in Washington -- people with common sense and a sense of duty and service. Until we get rid of the career politicians, the problems in DC will never be resolved.

Weary
2011-08-03, 15:09
Guys like Honore' are who we need in Washington -- people with common sense and a sense of duty and service. Until we get rid of the career politicians, the problems in DC will never be resolved.
This crisis was not caused by career politicians, but by first time amateurs governed by slogans, not reason or knowledge. It was resolved by the efforts of career politicians.

sheepdog
2011-08-03, 15:31
This crisis was not caused by career politicians, but by first time amateurs governed by slogans, not reason or knowledge. It was resolved by the efforts of career politicians.

gotta call bs on that one

SGT Rock
2011-08-03, 15:33
I think they may have been a part of the issue. But I also see career politicians from both sides digging in heels saying "I want this or else!"

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-03, 15:57
Gotta call BS on all of it.

Half want to give away everything to people to protect them from cradle to grave with no responsibility on themselves.

The other half wants to pay for military strength, to support our troops but also support big businesses that supply our troops.

Now, I support limited welfare AND limited warfare, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that our problem is a spending problem, not a tax problem.

What was all the hubbub about in the first place??? Raising the debt ceiling. Why??? Because we spend more than we take in.

And yes, I know Weary, before you go off on how many times GW raised it, so did Clinton, and Bush Sr, and Reagan, and Carter, and Ford, and Nixon.......on and on and on.

In other words, our spending has been exceeding our income for a VERY long time.....and when you hit your credit limit, you are doing nothing more than asking for trouble to raise it time and time again.

sheepdog
2011-08-03, 16:03
Gotta call BS on all of it.

Half want to give away everything to people to protect them from cradle to grave with no responsibility on themselves.

The other half wants to pay for military strength, to support our troops but also support big businesses that supply our troops.

Now, I support limited welfare AND limited warfare, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that our problem is a spending problem, not a tax problem.

What was all the hubbub about in the first place??? Raising the debt ceiling. Why??? Because we spend more than we take in.

And yes, I know Weary, before you go off on how many times GW raised it, so did Clinton, and Bush Sr, and Reagan, and Carter, and Ford, and Nixon.......on and on and on.

In other words, our spending has been exceeding our income for a VERY long time.....and when you hit your credit limit, you are doing nothing more than asking for trouble to raise it time and time again.

yepper

I would really like to see a balanced budget amendment.

It would also be kinda cool if all politicians salaries would go down the same percentage the deficit went up.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-03, 16:17
Their salaries are but a drop in the bucket.

Social programs and defense spending are the big ticket items that have been blown out of proportion.

And don't get me wrong, our soldiers need to be paid for what they do, but as the soldier said in Rock's quote ........."stop buying stupid shit".

And as far as social programs.........people need to rely on themselves and not the government teet. We have families for generations that are living off of the government. It needs to stop.

And if you wanna raise taxes......great.........go to a National Sales Tax that forces EVERYONE to pay into our tax system, including illegal aliens, visiting foreigners, drug dealers and anyone else who gets paid under the table........because there would be no table.

Everyone wants to compare us to European countries when it comes to healthcare, but no one talks about how those same European countries have a National Sales Tax.

sheepdog
2011-08-03, 16:24
Their salaries are but a drop in the bucket.

Social programs and defense spending are the big ticket items that have been blown out of proportion.

And don't get me wrong, our soldiers need to be paid for what they do, but as the soldier said in Rock's quote ........."stop buying stupid shit".

And as far as social programs.........people need to rely on themselves and not the government teet. We have families for generations that are living off of the government. It needs to stop.

And if you wanna raise taxes......great.........go to a National Sales Tax that forces EVERYONE to pay into our tax system, including illegal aliens, visiting foreigners, drug dealers and anyone else who gets paid under the table........because there would be no table.

Everyone wants to compare us to European countries when it comes to healthcare, but no one talks about how those same European countries have a National Sales Tax.

They also can't sue their health care provider or drug companies. We need serious tort reform.

JoeyB
2011-08-03, 17:26
Their salaries are but a drop in the bucket.

Social programs and defense spending are the big ticket items that have been blown out of proportion.

And don't get me wrong, our soldiers need to be paid for what they do, but as the soldier said in Rock's quote ........."stop buying stupid shit".

And as far as social programs.........people need to rely on themselves and not the government teet. We have families for generations that are living off of the government. It needs to stop.

And if you wanna raise taxes......great.........go to a National Sales Tax that forces EVERYONE to pay into our tax system, including illegal aliens, visiting foreigners, drug dealers and anyone else who gets paid under the table........because there would be no table.

Everyone wants to compare us to European countries when it comes to healthcare, but no one talks about how those same European countries have a National Sales Tax.

hell yeah.

not sure how in the hell taking $$$ from the productive class and giving it to the nonproductive class has any positive outcome.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

Ewker
2011-08-03, 17:34
waiting on dixicritter to come in and shut it down :beer:

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-03, 17:35
It doesn't.

It does nothing but punish a producing member of society and rewards the non-producing member of society.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-03, 17:36
waiting on dixicritter to come in and shut it down :beer:

Rock started it...........:aetsch:

Weary
2011-08-03, 17:43
....What was all the hubbub about in the first place??? Raising the debt ceiling.....
Nay. It was about Congress refusing to pay the bills that Congress had approved. Yes. Career politicians mostly refused to go along with the attempted blackmail. The time to cut spending is when legislation is proposed, debated and passed. Not when the time comes to pay the resulting bills.

There is much to criticize and no heroes in this sad situation. The debt is the result of Congress and recent past administrations promoting and passing political goodies without raising the taxes to pay for them.

Every president deserves some responsbility, but the real problems stems from a back of a napkin calulation that convinced Reagan to slash taxes, as a way to raise more money. He quickly raised taxes again when the calculation proved wrong and the debt skyrocketed.

With the exception of Bill Clinton, succeeding presidents bought the napkin theory, and forgot Reagan's response of raising taxes when the calcualtion again and again proved to be absurd.

SGT Rock
2011-08-03, 17:44
Rock started it...........:aetsch:

Call it an experiment to see if we can maintain civility. :beer:

Superman
2011-08-03, 17:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ionYZZ3c5-A

Lugnut
2011-08-03, 17:53
Call it an experiment to see if we can maintain civility. :beer:

On here? Hahahahahahahaha

sheepdog
2011-08-03, 17:56
Nay. It was about Congress refusing to pay the bills that Congress had approved. Yes. Career politicians mostly refused to go along with the attempted blackmail. The time to cut spending is when legislation is proposed, debated and passed. Not when the time comes to pay the resulting bills.

There is much to criticize and no heroes in this sad situation. The debt is the result of Congress and recent past administrations promoting and passing political goodies without raising the taxes to pay for them.

Every president deserves some responsbility, but the real problems stems from a back of a napkin calulation that convinced Reagan to slash taxes, as a way to raise more money. He quickly raised taxes again when the calculation proved wrong and the debt skyrocketed.

With the exception of Bill Clinton, succeeding presidents bought the napkin theory, and forgot Reagan's response of raising taxes when the calcualtion again and again proved to be absurd.

weren't the Dems supposed to pass this budget when they had control of the house the senate and the whitehouse??:albertein

sheepdog
2011-08-03, 17:56
Call it an experiment to see if we can maintain civility. :beer:

wanna start a pool for when it goes seriously down hill?

john pickett
2011-08-03, 18:00
I had a government prof back in 1975 who made the point if a politician stays in office long enough, He/She will become corrupt. His solution, throw the rascals out. Only way to get the rascals is throw All the politicians out of office every couple of years and vote new ones in. I have (mostly) kept that thought in mind when in the voting booth.

JoeyB
2011-08-03, 18:35
I had a government prof back in 1975 who made the point if a politician stays in office long enough, He/She will become corrupt. His solution, throw the rascals out. Only way to get the rascals is throw All the politicians out of office every couple of years and vote new ones in. I have (mostly) kept that thought in mind when in the voting booth.

everyone always looks at representatives from other districts, states as the bums who need to be thrown out.
but once in the voting booth, they keep voting for their same ol' same ol' local deadbeat incumbents.

sheepdog
2011-08-03, 18:44
we have term limits here in Mi. great idea.

SGT Rock
2011-08-03, 19:15
I look at mine to get rid of regularly. There was a rep that I thought was mine which I planned to help get rid of last election, then I found out he was the next district over. Luckily they threw the bum out.

Weary
2011-08-03, 19:24
we have term limits here in Mi. great idea.
We have term limits in Maine. It's a terrible idea. It puts most decisions in the hands of the bureaucrats because they are the only ones left with the background and knowledge to understand the issues.

There's only one way to have good government. That is to have voters who are willing to follow, and study the important issues. If they don't have the time or inclination to become informed about the background and wisdom of the candidates, the responsible citizen stays home.

Skidsteer
2011-08-03, 19:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ionYZZ3c5-A

Right on.

Weary
2011-08-03, 19:31
I had a government prof back in 1975 who made the point if a politician stays in office long enough, He/She will become corrupt. His solution, throw the rascals out. Only way to get the rascals is throw All the politicians out of office every couple of years and vote new ones in. I have (mostly) kept that thought in mind when in the voting booth.
That proves -- again -- that professors aren't any smarter than the rest of us, if that.

I've met scores of honest people who have served responsibly for years. I've met newcomer incompetents and petty crooks.

Superman
2011-08-03, 19:56
Execution is the only way to stop crooked politicians.

SGT Rock
2011-08-03, 19:58
Or encourage it. Look at Iraq. Just sayin'

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-03, 21:04
Nay. It was about Congress refusing to pay the bills that Congress had approved. Yes. Career politicians mostly refused to go along with the attempted blackmail. The time to cut spending is when legislation is proposed, debated and passed. Not when the time comes to pay the resulting bills.

There is much to criticize and no heroes in this sad situation. The debt is the result of Congress and recent past administrations promoting and passing political goodies without raising the taxes to pay for them.

Every president deserves some responsbility, but the real problems stems from a back of a napkin calulation that convinced Reagan to slash taxes, as a way to raise more money. He quickly raised taxes again when the calculation proved wrong and the debt skyrocketed.

With the exception of Bill Clinton, succeeding presidents bought the napkin theory, and forgot Reagan's response of raising taxes when the calcualtion again and again proved to be absurd.

Weary,

When do you ever decrease your debt by taking on more debt???

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-03, 21:05
weren't the Dems supposed to pass this budget when they had control of the house the senate and the whitehouse??:albertein

sssshhhhhh.......don't confuse the issue with facts.

Superman
2011-08-03, 21:35
sssshhhhhh.......don't confuse the issue with facts.

The fact is that the hole we're in was dug by both the dems and the fat animals. If all yall are thinking that one bunch or the other is the good guys you're just damn wrong. Both parties are the problem...not the solution. The final solution is to nuke them all.:bath:

Tin Man
2011-08-03, 21:37
It was about Congress refusing to pay the bills that Congress had approved.

duh... that's the whole irony of the debacle that led to this poor angle of the dangle.

Tin Man
2011-08-03, 21:41
We have term limits in Maine. It's a terrible idea. It puts most decisions in the hands of the bureaucrats because they are the only ones left with the background and knowledge to understand the issues.

ayup.

and i thought it was entirely funny when mr. gore posed in front of Mt. Regulations and said this was the problem... just before he proposed regulating the hell out of everything that wasn't regulated enough. doh!

JoeyB
2011-08-03, 21:54
The fact is that the hole we're in was dug by both the dems and the fat animals. If all yall are thinking that one bunch or the other is the good guys you're just damn wrong. Both parties are the problem...not the solution. The final solution is to nuke them all.:bath:

us vs. them.
that's how we need to be viewing this.

too bad there's so many in the "us" column that have been told what to think and say by the "them" crowd.

Superman
2011-08-03, 21:57
us vs. them.
that's how we need to be viewing this.

too bad there's so many in the "us" column that have been told what to think and say by the "them" crowd.

The important theng for them to remember is that I know everything and am always right. If them would just do that it would save a lot of arguing.:birthday:

sheepdog
2011-08-03, 22:05
We have term limits in Maine. It's a terrible idea. It puts most decisions in the hands of the bureaucrats because they are the only ones left with the background and knowledge to understand the issues.

There's only one way to have good government. That is to have voters who are willing to follow, and study the important issues. If they don't have the time or inclination to become informed about the background and wisdom of the candidates, the responsible citizen stays home.

so basically the average Mainer isn't near as smart as your average Michigander? :ahhhhh:

Weary
2011-08-03, 22:43
Weary,

When do you ever decrease your debt by taking on more debt???
Sadly, you do not understand. The vote dealt with paying for what had already been spent, paying back what had already been borrowed, and for paying for what Congress had already voted to spend.

I agree. Bush 2 was totally irresponsible for proposing a war and arguing that we needn't pay for it now, and could even reduce taxes. Congress was irresponsible for going along with such an absurdity.

But even more absurd is to suddenly demand extraneous things as a condition paying back the bonds we took out because of those two and other equal absurdities over the decades.

When our government borrows money it needs to be paid back without question. With all the problems we face as a nation, it was absolutely absurd for Congress to spend half the summer arguing over such a basic obligation, and then to go on vacation.

Weary
2011-08-03, 22:50
us vs. them.
that's how we need to be viewing this.

too bad there's so many in the "us" column that have been told what to think and say by the "them" crowd.
Ah Joey. You forget a majority of us voted for them. Believe me, it won't help voting for more them without doing a little thinking first, as last falls's election demonstrated.

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 00:07
Their salaries are but a drop in the bucket.
I think it is rather pay based off performance. It may not save the taxpayers much, but at least they wouldn't get paid for the shitty results in the last couple of months.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 00:37
The fact is that the hole we're in was dug by both the dems and the fat animals. If all yall are thinking that one bunch or the other is the good guys you're just damn wrong. Both parties are the problem...not the solution. The final solution is to nuke them all.:bath:

Totally agree 100%. That was my point, if you actually go back and read what I said. Both parties, and all presidents in my lifetime have overspent their means.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 00:43
Sadly, you do not understand. The vote dealt with paying for what had already been spent, paying back what had already been borrowed, and for paying for what Congress had already voted to spend.

I agree. Bush 2 was totally irresponsible for proposing a war and arguing that we needn't pay for it now, and could even reduce taxes. Congress was irresponsible for going along with such an absurdity.

But even more absurd is to suddenly demand extraneous things as a condition paying back the bonds we took out because of those two and other equal absurdities over the decades.

When our government borrows money it needs to be paid back without question. With all the problems we face as a nation, it was absolutely absurd for Congress to spend half the summer arguing over such a basic obligation, and then to go on vacation.

You say that I don't understand, and then you reinforce exactly what I'm saying.

You stated we spend, spend, spend, but don't pay, pay, pay. Why? Because we spend more than we take in........

That isn't an income problem, Weary..........it's a spending problem. And you are right....we need to pay what we borrow, but that doesn't excuse us to borrow unlimited.

So how do you cut down on borrowing, Weary???? You spend less. There is no other way. Our government has proven time and time and time again that the more money it has, the more it will spend. So raising taxes is going to do nothing more than give our government more to spend....... The only way to break that cycle is to cut spending and balance the freaking budget.

It's called Accounting.......it's been working for centuries.

Jester
2011-08-04, 03:14
yepper
I would really like to see a balanced budget amendment.


One of the reasons that states are able to have balanced budget amendments is that the Federal Gov't. doesn't.



Everyone wants to compare us to European countries when it comes to healthcare, but no one talks about how those same European countries have a National Sales Tax.

Do you want to talk about the fact that National Sales Taxes in other countries are in place in addition to other taxes, not instead of them?

JoeyB
2011-08-04, 08:10
Ah Joey. You forget a majority of us voted for them. Believe me, it won't help voting for more them without doing a little thinking first, as last falls's election demonstrated.

but who we vote for routinely morphs into something we never wanted representing us.

and we can never know which one of them will go up there and fall victim to the trappings. thus concentrating more on remaining there while forgetting about the members of the district (us) who they were sent there to represent.

plus, constantly re-electing some of these corrupt politicians is further proof that some of the "us" are happy believe anything "them" tell them to think.
a chicken in every pot sounds good to those who ravenously chomp the over processed, mass produced chunk of flesh. not realizing that sooner or later the bill comes due.

Superman
2011-08-04, 08:25
but who we vote for routinely morphs into something we never wanted representing us.

and we can never know which one of them will go up there and fall victim to the trappings. thus concentrating more on remaining there while forgetting about the members of the district (us) who they were sent there to represent.

Yes, the packaging of candidates is such that the voters don't know what they are getting. The candidates resumes and the truth are the first thing thrown out the window. Then they fabricate what samples say the people want. Most Americans have enough on their plates without having to sort through the bull shit and lies. If that isn't enough we have media and the press who are not informing the public but pushing their own agenda. The Son of Sam was more understandable than the political BS we have now.

JoeyB
2011-08-04, 08:53
right now there are no televised media that isn't completely biased and incendiary.
talk radio, whether you believe what they say or not, does nothing more than incite kneejerk reactionaries by spewing that same thing over and over every day.
they all contribute to the divide and conquer tactics that keep anything from being solved.

and you're right. politicians are packaged tighter than some salmonella infested turkey product.
you can't find out what it smells like inside the package until you've already bought it.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 10:00
Do you want to talk about the fact that National Sales Taxes in other countries are in place in addition to other taxes, not instead of them?

Sure........go ahead.

But regardless of how they tax you, it still comes down to the fact that EVERYONE pays tax, not just 53% of the citizens.

D'Artagnan
2011-08-04, 10:27
I've never quite understood why, if we have term limits for the President of the United States, we can't also have term limits for the other two branches of the federal government. It's as absurd to keep a senator in office for 40+ years as it is to make an appointment to the Supreme Court a lifetime appointment. At least, in recent history, some the jurists have had the decency to recognize when it's time to step aside. The same certainly can't be said for the likes of Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd.

yxLV0bVysnk

Weary
2011-08-04, 11:36
You say that I don't understand, and then you reinforce exactly what I'm saying.

You stated we spend, spend, spend, but don't pay, pay, pay. Why? Because we spend more than we take in........

That isn't an income problem, Weary..........it's a spending problem. And you are right....we need to pay what we borrow, but that doesn't excuse us to borrow unlimited.

So how do you cut down on borrowing, Weary???? You spend less. There is no other way. Our government has proven time and time and time again that the more money it has, the more it will spend. So raising taxes is going to do nothing more than give our government more to spend....... The only way to break that cycle is to cut spending and balance the freaking budget.

It's called Accounting.......it's been working for centuries.
Bill Clinton raised taxes and cut spending, thus balancing the budget, and despite predictions to the contrary by his Republican opponents, spurred the greatest period of prosperity in recent history.

Rather than continue this wise policy, Bush 2 slashed taxes, increased spending and pushed the country into a near depression. Thoughtless condemnation of all politicians is just ignoring the problem.

All politicians are chosen by voters. Only if voters are willing to think and are able to separate facts from falshoods and slogans will our country prosper. Our government currently is disfunctional. I think our educational system is probably partly at fault. We need more than the so called fundamentals.

Education in societies in which voters are in control must educate about the fundamentals of government and the need for an informed electorate. Instead we stress voting as a good in itself, and ignore the need for an informed electorate.

The posts on this an other forums in which many people proudly announce that they don't watch television news or read newspapers make me worry that this nation may be facing a disastrous future.

sheepdog
2011-08-04, 12:46
Bill Clinton raised taxes and cut spending, thus balancing the budget, and despite predictions to the contrary by his Republican opponents, spurred the greatest period of prosperity in recent history.

Rather than continue this wise policy, Bush 2 slashed taxes, increased spending and pushed the country into a near depression. Thoughtless condemnation of all politicians is just ignoring the problem.

All politicians are chosen by voters. Only if voters are willing to think and are able to separate facts from falshoods and slogans will our country prosper. Our government currently is disfunctional. I think our educational system is probably partly at fault. We need more than the so called fundamentals.


Education in societies in which voters are in control must educate about the fundamentals of government and the need for an informed electorate. Instead we stress voting as a good in itself, and ignore the need for an informed electorate.

The posts on this an other forums in which many people proudly announce that they don't watch television news or read newspapers make me worry that this nation may be facing a disastrous future.

but he never reduced the nations debt.....

Weary
2011-08-04, 13:18
but he never reduced the nations debt.....
Actually, he did, though admittedly not by very much. But had his policies been continued, we would be debt free around now.

I read his autobiography a few years ago. It contained the best analysis of the debt/spending problem I've ever read. Instead of following Clinton's advice, we slashed taxes, especially on the most wealthy citizens. Cause and effect are difficult things to prove. But following the cutting of taxes, business spending did not increase as had been predicted. But decreased.

The same thing happened with cutting regulations. Business spending declined. The why takes someone wiser than me to figure out. But the making of political decisions based on political dogmas rarely has proven useful to society.

When I was active in the recovery of 400,000 acres of public land many years ago, I learned that there were good politicians in both parties. The important distinctions were the ability to think and reason as opposed to following popular dogmas.

I've received a lot of plaques, and certificates over the decades. My favorite is a piece of drftwood that the politician who headed a special investigation committee picked up on the lakeshore of one of the disputed lots. Attached was a 1" x 3" piece of brass, reading "to Bob Cummings for showing the people of Maine the way to their public lands."

A Republican, his efforts to recover the disuted lands almost certainly kept him from becoming governor as he knew it would. But he chose to act responsibly anyway.

Superman
2011-08-04, 13:23
but he never reduced the nations debt.....

...but he had an interesting sex life....Monica said. ...anybody got a cigar?:angel:

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 13:25
Bill Clinton raised taxes and cut spending, thus balancing the budget, and despite predictions to the contrary by his Republican opponents, spurred the greatest period of prosperity in recent history.

Rather than continue this wise policy, Bush 2 slashed taxes, increased spending and pushed the country into a near depression. Thoughtless condemnation of all politicians is just ignoring the problem.

All politicians are chosen by voters. Only if voters are willing to think and are able to separate facts from falshoods and slogans will our country prosper. Our government currently is disfunctional. I think our educational system is probably partly at fault. We need more than the so called fundamentals.

Education in societies in which voters are in control must educate about the fundamentals of government and the need for an informed electorate. Instead we stress voting as a good in itself, and ignore the need for an informed electorate.

The posts on this an other forums in which many people proudly announce that they don't watch television news or read newspapers make me worry that this nation may be facing a disastrous future.

And again, doesn't answer the questions about why we don't have a balanced budget.

And again, doesn't address the questions raised about not having a National Sales Tax which will increase tax collection ON EVERYONE.

And I'll agree that the American public is uneducated.......I could tell you that that is exactly how Obama got elected in the first place.

mm1KOBMg1Y8


Only if voters are willing to think and are able to separate facts from falshoods and slogans will our country prosper

You mean like "Hope" and "Change"? You mean like setting up class warfare? You mean like threatening that grandma and grandpa won't get their social security checks if the president doesn't get his way??? Yeah....I hate that stuff too......

But you see, I do read the papers, I do watch the news from multiple sources.......heck, I even watch Bill Maher every week. I don't listen to the radio. I don't watch Glenn Beck. I don't watch Hannity.

I also own my own business and do my own taxes (both personal and corporate).

And you know what? I still haven't drank the Kool-Aid.

Weary
2011-08-04, 13:40
And again, doesn't answer the questions about why we don't have a balanced budget.

And again, doesn't address the questions raised about not having a National Sales Tax which will increase tax collection ON EVERYONE.

And I'll agree that the American public is uneducated.......I could tell you that that is exactly how Obama got elected in the first place.

mm1KOBMg1Y8
.....
We don't have a balanced budget because Bush 2 chose to cut taxes rather than work on balancing the budget and Congress went along with him.

I think a national sales tax, though it won't be called that, will happen and probably should happen.

Obama has dealt wisely with most of the issues that have plagued his administration, given the constraints of politics. He is the only President in my experience faced by an opposition party that vowed on day one to do everything possible to defeat him for reelection.

As the months go on it's clear to me that that vow continues, regardless of the impact their efforts have on the nation. I suspect his race is one underlying factor.

JoeyB
2011-08-04, 13:40
clinton was forced by the house to change his way of doing business after the 1st mid term election of his two terms.

funny how that always gets downplayed.

his policies were, for the 1st two years, the same as the wonder boy's are today.
tax.
spend.
social redistribution of wealth.

the old money in this nation ceased to flow for those 1st two years due to that policy. (remember the luxury yacht tax ???)
once things began to change after the mid term, the money pump once again began to flow and that's when the economy began to move forward.

the same thing is happening now. except the boy wonder didn't heed to the will of the people after his mid term election.
thus, continued economic stagnation as the system has been clogged with excess regulation and the uncertainty over what in the hell this guy's going to tax next. (now it's the corporate jets as opposed to yachts.)

but hey, he sure gives nice speeches about jobs now, doesn't he ???
problem is, the only one he's concerned about is his.

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 13:46
I was surprised at the one person that said they got their news from NPR. Either they don't pay attention or they were just saying that to try and not sound stupid. I regularly listen to NPR (almost daily) because they are convenient and they have much more in-depth coverage than any other source I've also paid attention to such as CNN, FOX, NBC, and USA Today. They have covered all these issues. Including the fact that voters were more likely to remember things Tina Fey said impersonating Sarah Palin than the things Sarah Palin actually said herself.

What is clear to me listen to them is they have a hard-on for FOX. It didn't surprise me when they warned off their commentators that often speak on FOX. And I wasn't surprised when they fired Juan Williams - well other than being surprised that Juan Williams was a regular at FOX. I wrote to my NPR station immediately after that happened and made my protest known over that one.

Lugnut
2011-08-04, 13:58
Most elections are decided by uninformed voters. Maybe there should be a test before balloting to see if the voter has any idea of what the candidates stand for.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 14:05
We don't have a balanced budget because Bush 2 chose to cut taxes rather than work on balancing the budget and Congress went along with him.

No, we don't have a balanced budget because we don't have a balanced budget amendment. Don't forget, Weary, that Congress has been controlled by Democrats for six years before the midterm election........ Kinda conveniently forget that fact, don't we. You see, the President doesn't hold the purse strings..........that was the Dems for six years.



I think a national sales tax, though it won't be called that, will happen and probably should happen.


I don't care what you call it, just as long as it is in place. It forces EVERYONE to pay their fair share, including illegals. The problem most people have with illegals isn't that they are here illegally. It's the fact that they get to share in all the benefits without the sacrifice of paying taxes.

The other reason I think it should be enacted is because under the current system, we are penalized for being productive, and then we wonder why our economy is going nowhere. It's because we set it up that way. We penalize production and work ethic and reward slothfulness and waste. A national sales tax does not penalize production......it penalizes consumption. And the more money you have, the more you spend, and therefore the more taxes you pay.




Obama has dealt wisely with most of the issues that have plagued his administration, given the constraints of politics. He is the only President in my experience faced by an opposition party that vowed on day one to do everything possible to defeat him for reelection.


Really???? So he was open for discussion when it came to Obamacare??? He was open for discussion with his bailouts of the banks and auto manufacturer's??? Gimme a break. He's over his head and shows no leadership skills whatsoever.



As the months go on it's clear to me that that vow continues, regardless of the impact their efforts have on the nation. I suspect his race is one underlying factor.

Can't prove a point and you can always fall back on the race card. Once the race card is thrown, all debate ceases because that trumps everything. Gimme a break.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 14:07
clinton was forced by the house to change his way of doing business after the 1st mid term election of his two terms.

funny how that always gets downplayed.

his policies were, for the 1st two years, the same as the wonder boy's are today.
tax.
spend.
social redistribution of wealth.

the old money in this nation ceased to flow for those 1st two years due to that policy. (remember the luxury yacht tax ???)
once things began to change after the mid term, the money pump once again began to flow and that's when the economy began to move forward.

the same thing is happening now. except the boy wonder didn't heed to the will of the people after his mid term election.
thus, continued economic stagnation as the system has been clogged with excess regulation and the uncertainty over what in the hell this guy's going to tax next. (now it's the corporate jets as opposed to yachts.)

but hey, he sure gives nice speeches about jobs now, doesn't he ???
problem is, the only one he's concerned about is his.

Exactly.

It must have been because he was the "first black President"..........lol

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 14:07
I was surprised at the one person that said they got their news from NPR. Either they don't pay attention or they were just saying that to try and not sound stupid. I regularly listen to NPR (almost daily) because they are convenient and they have much more in-depth coverage than any other source I've also paid attention to such as CNN, FOX, NBC, and USA Today. They have covered all these issues. Including the fact that voters were more likely to remember things Tina Fey said impersonating Sarah Palin than the things Sarah Palin actually said herself.

What is clear to me listen to them is they have a hard-on for FOX. It didn't surprise me when they warned off their commentators that often speak on FOX. And I wasn't surprised when they fired Juan Williams - well other than being surprised that Juan Williams was a regular at FOX. I wrote to my NPR station immediately after that happened and made my protest known over that one.

Kinda blows the whole Liberal Elite myth right out of the water, doesn't it???

Weary
2011-08-04, 14:09
I was surprised at the one person that said they got their news from NPR. Either they don't pay attention or they were just saying that to try and not sound stupid. I regularly listen to NPR (almost daily) because they are convenient and they have much more in-depth coverage than any other source I've also paid attention to such as CNN, FOX, NBC, and USA Today. They have covered all these issues. Including the fact that voters were more likely to remember things Tina Fey said impersonating Sarah Palin than the things Sarah Palin actually said herself.

What is clear to me listen to them is they have a hard-on for FOX. It didn't surprise me when they warned off their commentators that often speak on FOX. And I wasn't surprised when they fired Juan Williams - well other than being surprised that Juan Williams was a regular at FOX. I wrote to my NPR station immediately after that happened and made my protest known over that one.
I listen to NPR. My radio rarely shifts from public radio. My television bounces around more. I watch 60 minutes often, and some of the other news programs, but the hour long evening public tv news is a regular.

The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal are essential newspaper sources, though I read the state wide newspaper I used to work for, it's free to retirees, and the local daily, which I also used to work for many years ago, but that paper charges me $130 a year.

FOX is such a biased source that I watch only sporadically, mostly to hear what the opposition is saying.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 14:13
FOX is such a biased source that I watch only sporadically

And the same could be said of CNN, Headline News and MSNBC. That's why I don't watch any of them.

Matter of fact, I watch Bill Maher more than I watch Fox......go figure.

So no, not everyone conservative watches Fox.

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 14:16
I sort of get forced to watch FOX. In the break room at work it is usually on all the time.

I occasionally listen to some of the conservative talking heads to see what they are babbling about. I often hear folks at work repeating what these guys say - I imagine I know where they got the notions in the first place.

Jester
2011-08-04, 14:26
I don't care what you call it, just as long as it is in place. It forces EVERYONE to pay their fair share, including illegals. The problem most people have with illegals isn't that they are here illegally. It's the fact that they get to share in all the benefits without the sacrifice of paying taxes.


It's pretty clear to me, then, that "most people" have no idea about whether or not illegals pay taxes. If they did, your last sentence might be rewritten as, "they get to pay taxes without deriving all of the benefits from so doing."

I imagine you're about to ask me how illegals pay taxes. I'll give you a hint: for most people, taxes are withheld by their employer.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 14:30
It's pretty clear to me, then, that "most people" have no idea about whether or not illegals pay taxes. If they did, your last sentence might be rewritten as, "they get to pay taxes without deriving all of the benefits from so doing."

I imagine you're about to ask me how illegals pay taxes. I'll give you a hint: for most people, taxes are withheld by their employer.

Not if they are paid under the table to pick tomatoes..........

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 14:35
That happens with folks that are legal too. Maybe not pick tomatoes, but getting paid for labor without any tax record.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 14:36
And you do know that you can go to your employer and have them either increase or decrease the amount of withholding, right?

woodsy
2011-08-04, 14:39
Not if they are paid under the table

Like Monica ?

rcli4
2011-08-04, 15:01
Illegals paying into the SSI system and never collecting is partly why Reagan was able to give amnesty in 85. Most pay taxes and don't bitch. Not many will argue with the boss about how much yaxes are taken or overtime not being paid. They are afraid to make waves. The big bust at the chicken plant a few years back came from them working them 60 hours a week and no over time being paid. Someone complained and 4 or 5 hundred got deported....

Clyde

Weary
2011-08-04, 15:02
That happens with folks that are legal too. Maybe not pick tomatoes, but getting paid for labor without any tax record.
It happens everywhere. One Motel owner gave me a price, when I was walking north on the trail. When I pulled out a credit card, he said. It's $10 more if hikers pay with a card because I'd have to pay the state sales taxes and income taxes. At least he was honest. I pulled out two twenty dollar bills and he accepted them happilly.

It's not always so blunt, but it happens frequently. I hire casual workers to help occasionally -- like this summer when I had to cut down a poplar tree to keep it from falling into an oak tree I wanted to protect. I sensed the guy would much prefer to be paid in cash.

The preferred method of payment seems to be cash. No checks, no bills, no written account of the transaction if possible.

Jester
2011-08-04, 15:04
The guy that works on my truck gives me a discount if I pay in cash. To my knowledge, he's not an illegal.

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 15:05
From talking to my buddy who is a LEO and works the immigrants in his town (he is from Spain and speaks fluent Spanish), the illegals are generally employed "legally" which means they are paying taxes under someone's SSN, but the employer doesn't want to dig too deep into their immigration status.

Two Speed
2011-08-04, 15:05
The guy that works on my truck gives me a discount if I pay in cash. To my knowledge, he's not an illegal.Same here.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 15:07
It happens everywhere. One Motel owner gave me a price, when I was walking north on the trail. When I pulled out a credit card, he said. It's $10 more if hikers pay with a card because I'd have to pay the state sales taxes and income taxes. At least he was honest. I pulled out two twenty dollar bills and he accepted them happilly.

It's not always so blunt, but it happens frequently. I hire casual workers to help occasionally -- like this summer when I had to cut down a poplar tree to keep it from falling into an oak tree I wanted to protect. I sensed the guy would much prefer to be paid in cash.

The preferred method of payment seems to be cash. No checks, no bills, no written account of the transaction if possible.


The guy that works on my truck gives me a discount if I pay in cash. To my knowledge, he's not an illegal.

And both of those would pay taxes regardless.

It's hard to get paid under the table when there is no table.

Superman
2011-08-04, 15:09
When my Swedish daughter-in-law isn't feeling well she is an ill legal alien.:angel:

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 15:09
From talking to my buddy who is a LEO and works the immigrants in his town (he is from Spain and speaks fluent Spanish), the illegals are generally employed "legally" which means they are paying taxes under someone's SSN, but the employer doesn't want to dig too deep into their immigration status.

Which would also become unnecessary with a national sales tax.

Not to mention, how many of these illegals like drywallers set themselves up with an invalid SSN as a subcontractor.

The employer is not required to collect taxes for a sub. It is the responsibility of the sub.

Jester
2011-08-04, 15:19
And both of those would pay taxes regardless.

It's hard to get paid under the table when there is no table.

Well, one would presume that the reason I get a discount is that the mechanic (who owns the business) has no intention of claiming that income. That's why I get a discount. So I don't see how he "pays taxes regardless."

Ray
2011-08-04, 15:27
Not trying to get a big political thing going, but...
So how's that working for you?

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 15:28
Not so well.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 15:29
Well, one would presume that the reason I get a discount is that the mechanic (who owns the business) has no intention of claiming that income. That's why I get a discount. So I don't see how he "pays taxes regardless."

Because with a National Sales tax in lieu of an income tax he won't pay taxes for receiving unclaimed money, because he wouldn't have to claim making any money in the first place.

He would pay his taxes when he wants to go SPEND that money.

And it doesn't matter if he pays cash, check or credit.

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 15:30
I think he meant how is he paying his taxes now?

Weary
2011-08-04, 15:36
Not so well.
But it has been reasonably polite. And it's gotten more responses than anything else, which means quite a few have enjoyed the discussion and the banter.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 15:38
I think he meant how is he paying his taxes now?

Exactly. It isn't just illegals that get paid under the table. It's people like his mechanic, drug dealers, construction workers who don't want to pay child support by having their wages garnered.........there is a whole slew of people who do this sort of thing.

And that would stop. And it's a way of increasing tax revenues without raising taxes.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 15:42
Not so well.

I agree with Weary.....it's been civil.

But will stop anytime you wish.

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 15:46
I didn't say it wasn't civil, I appreciate the fact ya'll are trying. I'm just generally frustrated with the partisan BS in Washington where no one feels they need to compromise. They also talk at each other instead of to each other. There is a big difference IMO and it is part of what makes the problem worse.

When the General expressed that they need to be shipped off to boot camp and learn to work together that was my exact thought. Everyone in a company of privates may not like or agree with each other, but they can work together to get things done. Congress, the Senate, and even the President (no matter which party) should have to go back to boot camp every 2 years for 8 weeks of getting to know each other through pain.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 16:05
I didn't say it wasn't civil, I appreciate the fact ya'll are trying. I'm just generally frustrated with the partisan BS in Washington where no one feels they need to compromise. They also talk at each other instead of to each other. There is a big difference IMO and it is part of what makes the problem worse.

When the General expressed that they need to be shipped off to boot camp and learn to work together that was my exact thought. Everyone in a company of privates may not like or agree with each other, but they can work together to get things done. Congress, the Senate, and even the President (no matter which party) should have to go back to boot camp every 2 years for 8 weeks of getting to know each other through pain.

Agreed. One of the things we teach in our Venture Crew is leadership. Once every two years or so, we go over what it means to be a leader, and that doesn't mean your way or the highway.

It means coming up with a logical solution and that everyone works together to acheive that goal.

But the Dems don't want a National Sales Tax, because that means everyone would have to contribute to pay taxes.

And the GOP doesn't want a National Sales Tax, because the rich would no longer have loopholes.

In the meantime, we just keep getting stuck by both sides.

Crikey
2011-08-04, 16:43
Once every two years or so, we go over what it means to be a leader, and that doesn't mean your way or the highway.



Hell yes.

I work with a guy who is a team lead (but not my boss); he's an ex-Navy chief. He's the "Senior" Systems Engineer here, we work on multi-million dollar government contracts.

He's an idiot. He has brought down our network numerous times.

I am so disgusted with him I can barely speak to him, other than to challenge his insane decisions. He told my boss "I was in the Navy for 20 years, I'm used to giving orders and people following them. He doesn't do it."

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 17:09
Hell yes.

I work with a guy who is a team lead (but not my boss); he's an ex-Navy chief. He's the "Senior" Systems Engineer here, we work on multi-million dollar government contracts.

He's an idiot. He has brought down our network numerous times.

I am so disgusted with him I can barely speak to him, other than to challenge his insane decisions. He told my boss "I was in the Navy for 20 years, I'm used to giving orders and people following them. He doesn't do it."

That's probably the biggest problem with anyone in power.

They think it is do as I say, not as I do.

A real leader will get answers first, talk about the right direction, make sure everyone is clear on the direction, and then be the first person to start working on that direction.

Lead by example......not by orders.

Weary
2011-08-04, 17:25
Exactly. It isn't just illegals that get paid under the table. It's people like his mechanic, drug dealers, construction workers who don't want to pay child support by having their wages garnered.........there is a whole slew of people who do this sort of thing.

And that would stop. And it's a way of increasing tax revenues without raising taxes.
The weakness of a national sales tax is that it hits the poor and middle income people the hardest. We all spend most of our incomes as soon as it comes in. Wealthy people tend to use much of their incomes to generate more income, or to buy foreign real estate, or yachts from the lowest bidder, which tends not to be Americans.

Virtually my total income would be subject to the tax and more -- since this year I'm tending to spend more than I get most months.

Unless you apply the tax to investments, a national sales tax would just mean that the rich would get richer and the poor, poorer. Oh wait. I forgot. There is nothing different about that.

SGT Rock
2011-08-04, 17:29
As I understand the sales tax, there would still be a standard deduction, refund, whatever... for living expenses. So while a poor person may make 20K and pay 5K in taxes, part, most, or all would come back depending, while a rich person that makes $250K would only get the same deduction as the poor person. So if the rich person spends 180K that year, he would still only get back the same 5K as the poor guy making $20K.

mudhead
2011-08-04, 18:03
so basically the average Mainer isn't near as smart as your average Michigander? :ahhhhh:


Who you calling average?



Illegals paying into the SSI system and never collecting is partly why Reagan was able to give amnesty in 85. Most pay taxes and don't bitch. Not many will argue with the boss about how much yaxes are taken or overtime not being paid. They are afraid to make waves. The big bust at the chicken plant a few years back came from them working them 60 hours a week and no over time being paid. Someone complained and 4 or 5 hundred got deported....

Clyde

There were other things like urinating inplace on the workline, maiming injuries blah blah.




It's not always so blunt, but it happens frequently. I hire casual workers to help occasionally -- like this summer when I had to cut down a poplar tree to keep it from falling into an oak tree I wanted to protect. I sensed the guy would much prefer to be paid in cash.

The preferred method of payment seems to be cash. No checks, no bills, no written account of the transaction if possible.

You once were allowed to pay $600 without reporting. His responsibility to report it whatever amount. Might be simple as the frig factor- he might not have an easy way to cash the check.
.


The guy that works on my truck gives me a discount if I pay in cash. To my knowledge, he's not an illegal.


Same. 3%. MC/Visa was 3 or 3.5% at the time. He prints receipts, so I hope it AOK.

I would really like to be a fly on the wall when politicians talk about voters.
Line item veto and a heavy dose of common sense might help matters.

DesertReprobate
2011-08-04, 19:15
We don't have a balanced budget because Bush 2 chose to cut taxes rather than work on balancing the budget and Congress went along with him.

I think a national sales tax, though it won't be called that, will happen and probably should happen.

Obama has dealt wisely with most of the issues that have plagued his administration, given the constraints of politics. He is the only President in my experience faced by an opposition party that vowed on day one to do everything possible to defeat him for reelection.

As the months go on it's clear to me that that vow continues, regardless of the impact their efforts have on the nation. I suspect his race is one underlying factor.

I don't like the white half much either.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 19:22
The weakness of a national sales tax is that it hits the poor and middle income people the hardest. We all spend most of our incomes as soon as it comes in. Wealthy people tend to use much of their incomes to generate more income, or to buy foreign real estate, or yachts from the lowest bidder, which tends not to be Americans.

Virtually my total income would be subject to the tax and more -- since this year I'm tending to spend more than I get most months.

Unless you apply the tax to investments, a national sales tax would just mean that the rich would get richer and the poor, poorer. Oh wait. I forgot. There is nothing different about that.

Nope. As Rock stated, you'd get a rebate. And the necessities of life (food, clothing, etc) would not be taxed. And the poor person would have more money in his pocket because it wouldn't take out withholding from his check.

So if he is buying the necessities, he pays no tax. Wanna buy that flat panel television, he can pay tax just like the rest of us.

And you're acting as if the rich won't buy anything here in the States. Gimme a break. Yeah.....they go out to eat in Canada all the time.

Weary
2011-08-04, 20:00
Nope. As Rock stated, you'd get a rebate. And the necessities of life (food, clothing, etc) would not be taxed. And the poor person would have more money in his pocket because it wouldn't take out withholding from his check.

So if he is buying the necessities, he pays no tax. Wanna buy that flat panel television, he can pay tax just like the rest of us.

And you're acting as if the rich won't buy anything here in the States. Gimme a break. Yeah.....they go out to eat in Canada all the time.
That's one plan. I question whether the current Congress would ever seriously think of a new federal mandate that would have a trillian dollars a year, more or less, from the government going to poor people and middle income folks. It would be the largest government subsidy in history.

I never said they wouldn't spend "anything" in the US. But they are unlikely to pay much over the average (times 2 or 3, may be at most). There's only so much one can eat, regardless of the luxurious surroundings. Besides, I've noticed that rich folks are even more reluctant than us ordinary folks to pay much beyond the minimum necessary. Let's face it, that's how you get rich. That and spending one's life conspiring to be rich.

I always had a different goal. I wanted to be able to support myself, and whoever, was dependent on me. But beyond that I never thought of buying luxuries. Or comfortable retirement plans. Beyond that I've just tried to be useful and leave something of use to society when I die.

sheepdog
2011-08-04, 20:22
That's one plan. I question whether the current Congress would ever seriously think of a new federal mandate that would have a trillian dollars a year, more or less, from the government going to poor people and middle income folks. It would be the largest government subsidy in history.

I never said they wouldn't spend "anything" in the US. But they are unlikely to pay much over the average (times 2 or 3, may be at most). There's only so much one can eat, regardless of the luxurious surroundings. Besides, I've noticed that rich folks are even more reluctant than us ordinary folks to pay much beyond the minimum necessary. Let's face it, that's how you get rich. That and spending one's life conspiring to be rich.

I always had a different goal. I wanted to be able to support myself, and whoever, was dependent on me. But beyond that I never thought of buying luxuries. Or comfortable retirement plans. Beyond that I've just tried to be useful and leave something of use to society when I die.
trouble is

a whole lot of people don't want to do that anymore

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 20:32
That's one plan. I question whether the current Congress would ever seriously think of a new federal mandate that would have a trillian dollars a year, more or less, from the government going to poor people and middle income folks. It would be the largest government subsidy in history.


Uhhhh......they already do it, Weary. It called a "tax refund".




I never said they wouldn't spend "anything" in the US. But they are unlikely to pay much over the average (times 2 or 3, may be at most). There's only so much one can eat, regardless of the luxurious surroundings. Besides, I've noticed that rich folks are even more reluctant than us ordinary folks to pay much beyond the minimum necessary. Let's face it, that's how you get rich. That and spending one's life conspiring to be rich.


Don't forget, Weary, that rich people from all around the world come to the US to buy our products. They'd pay into OUR system as well.



I always had a different goal. I wanted to be able to support myself, and whoever, was dependent on me. But beyond that I never thought of buying luxuries. Or comfortable retirement plans. Beyond that I've just tried to be useful and leave something of use to society when I die.

Gee, Weary.......we're on the same page. It's your responsibility to support yourself and whoever is dependent on you. What a novel concept!

And you know what? Don't buy those luxuries and you don't get taxed on them. Rich people will still buy those luxuries and will pay the tax to have them.

So the rich still pay more in taxes, the poor and middle class put in their shares, we don't have sponges on the system sucking up resources without putting in their fair share, and you don't have people bucking the system by not reporting their income........

It's a WIN-WIN-WIN situation..........and all done without raising your taxes.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 20:32
trouble is

a whole lot of people don't want to do that anymore

Eggszachary

Two Speed
2011-08-04, 21:26
I'm volunteering to pay taxes on reefer as soon as it's legalized.

sheepdog
2011-08-04, 21:28
I'm volunteering to pay taxes on reefer as soon as it's legalized.

move to Michigan and get a doctor. They write a script for anyone with $150.

Two Speed
2011-08-04, 21:31
I've thought about the UP.

sheepdog
2011-08-04, 21:34
I've thought about the UP.

you betcha by golly eh??

Da UP is da place to be.

Two Speed
2011-08-04, 21:46
Just looks like it'd be hell on wheels to find work. Other than that the plan was coming together nicely for a while.

sheepdog
2011-08-04, 22:07
Just looks like it'd be hell on wheels to find work. Other than that the plan was coming together nicely for a while.

Are you into winter?? You would need to be up there. But Yoopers really know how to live in the summer. They squeeze it for all it's worth.

Two Speed
2011-08-04, 22:10
Not really. Snow is fun for about 30 minutes. After that it's a PITA.

woodsy
2011-08-04, 22:21
Not really. Snow is fun for about 30 minutes. After that it's a PITA.

:confused:

sheepdog
2011-08-04, 22:22
Not really. Snow is fun for about 30 minutes. After that it's a PITA.

zacktly.

we have about 5 months of snow here. It's more up there with a lot more volume. Too tough for me.

sheepdog
2011-08-04, 22:23
:confused:

hahahahahahahaha

Nearly Normal
2011-08-04, 22:59
The IRS ain't going nowhere. It is a big part of the machine with lots of power and employees with a strong union.
A flat tax....dream on.

Superman
2011-08-04, 23:16
:confused:

That's what I was thinking also.

Two Speed
2011-08-04, 23:17
You're thinking Woodsy's confused?

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-04, 23:28
The IRS ain't going nowhere. It is a big part of the machine with lots of power and employees with a strong union.
A flat tax....dream on.

Actually, it is getting discussed more and more. Presidential candidates are even campaigning on it.

It might be a long time in the making, but I think it will eventually happen.

Ray
2011-08-04, 23:47
you betcha by golly eh?? Da UP is da place to be.So howzit gowen, eh?

Multinational MegaCorporation Incorprated that I work for had this paper machine, eh? Many years ago. And it was a big bugger so it got it's own rail train to move it from like Detroit to someplace near Soo Saint Marie and yeah I know that's not how it's spelled and don't care neither. Let's say from a place where we'd already cut down all the trees to someplace where we hadn't cut down all the trees yet.

But the paper machine didn't make it there. Going around some sort of bend in the tracks the machine fell off the train. Disaster, eh?

Well, no. The bean counters figgered that it'd be cheaper to just buy the land where the machine landed, set up a building around it and start making paper there than to put it back on the train.

So that, the legend goes, is how MegaCorp Inc has a paper making plant in Munising which is smack dab in the middle of the You Pee.

And who knows, that story might even be true.

Which isn't all that interesting except that once upon a time the chemist who worked there retired and they needed a replacement and they asked me. And I said something to the effect of not oh no but oh hell no. And I thought that'd be the end of the story.

Evidently they asked everyone else in Mega Inc and got about the same reply so they came back to me, because what I do was most like what was needed, and sweetened the offer so much that if I accepted it I'd get payroll diabetes. It was so sweet that I had to stop and think about it. Housing prices were like zilch but utilities were way higher but then down jackets plaid shirts and blue jeans were cheaper than business casual workwear. Hmmmmm.

It reminded me of the week I spent in NYC - I could live there. I really could. It would take some adjusting but there's folks already there that would cut off limbs for the salary I was being offered. And knowing it was my only chance to be promoted to that level I thanked them very politely but declined their offer in a way that they wouldn't ask me again. So they hired somebody else then sent him to Georgia for a couple weeks so I could train him.

I never regretted my decision for one minute.

Weary
2011-08-04, 23:52
Uhhhh......they already do it, Weary. It called a "tax refund".

Sorry. It's not the same at all. A refund is your money. It comes back to you if you've overpaid your taxes. The sales tax, according to supporters, would provide upfront money, knowing you are going to overpay.

But regardless of all the imagination one has, there is no realistic way around the fact that shifting to an entirely sales tax funded government would cause a mass die off of rich people. They would all die laughing at a country that could be so stupid as to exempt them from even more of the tax burden.

Cuffs
2011-08-05, 00:24
The UP is awesome year round. Copper Harbor, Taquahmonon Falls, the snow mobile trails. I miss my days in Michigan (to some extent but not enough to move back full time). Camp Grayling, traverse city, the summer house on lake Tawas. Cruising lake Erie in a Four Winns. Ok, have to make a trip home soon!

Jester
2011-08-05, 00:42
When the General expressed that they need to be shipped off to boot camp and learn to work together that was my exact thought. Everyone in a company of privates may not like or agree with each other, but they can work together to get things done. Congress, the Senate, and even the President (no matter which party) should have to go back to boot camp every 2 years for 8 weeks of getting to know each other through pain.

I think this is a great idea, and it's not an entirely ridiculous notion. There is an election every two years for the House; Senate terms are six years but are staggered so that 1/3 (approximately) are up for election every two years. So logistically speaking, things are already set up so you could do the bootcamp for all House members & 1/3 of the Senators every two years at the beginning of their terms. Throw the President & his cabinet in as well (make them do it twice each term).

Potential bonus: if we make boot camp for Congress vigorous enough, some of the older members might retire rather than go through it twice. Call it term limits by physical exhaustion.

Two Speed
2011-08-05, 04:20
Do you really think that wouldn't turn into one big party/bribe fest?

Two Speed
2011-08-05, 06:39
And in other news our favorite pack of shitheads are going international.

The Westboro Baptist Church, a radical religious group from Kansas, announced in a press release that it intends to picket the funerals of the victims of the Norway massacre. "Norway must repent or perish," the document reads. "WBC will picket at the funerals of the Norway dead to warn the living: they died for your sins."

Warning: link to liberal news site (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/04/westboro-baptists-church-norway_n_917388.html).

Superman
2011-08-05, 06:53
And in other news our favorite pack of shitheads are going international.

The Westboro Baptist Church, a radical religious group from Kansas, announced in a press release that it intends to picket the funerals of the victims of the Norway massacre. "Norway must repent or perish," the document reads. "WBC will picket at the funerals of the Norway dead to warn the living: they died for your sins."

Warning: link to liberal news site (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/04/westboro-baptists-church-norway_n_917388.html).

stupid is as stupid does

Skidsteer
2011-08-05, 07:36
I knew they were stupid but surely they realize that Norway doesn't give a rat's ass about their constitutional rights.

Superman
2011-08-05, 07:46
I knew they were stupid but surely they realize that Norway doesn't give a rat's ass about their constitutional rights.

I'd like to show them my "basic training" face...1965.:angel:

JoeyB
2011-08-05, 08:34
Warning: link to liberal news site (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/04/westboro-baptists-church-norway_n_917388.html).

i do believe i'll heed your warning.
my weekend's kicking off in just a bit, and i don't want to start out on a sour note.

hearing the upcoming jobs report, due in less than an hour will be bad enough as it is.

JoeyB
2011-08-05, 08:46
I'd like to show them my "basic training" face...1965.:angel:


a few years back, they were planning on showing up at a military funeral in a small town just north of here.
word got out about their pending arrival and a, not so small, welcome committee was sent to greet them.

seems something must have come up because their mini van was spotted head back west to kansas before they could attend the ceremony.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-05, 09:34
Sorry. It's not the same at all. A refund is your money. It comes back to you if you've overpaid your taxes. The sales tax, according to supporters, would provide upfront money, knowing you are going to overpay.

But regardless of all the imagination one has, there is no realistic way around the fact that shifting to an entirely sales tax funded government would cause a mass die off of rich people. They would all die laughing at a country that could be so stupid as to exempt them from even more of the tax burden.

Why don't you do a little research on it first before you judge if it will lower taxes on the rich.......

Oh, yeah, I forgot..........you're a Democrat. They don't do such things. :)

Crikey
2011-08-05, 09:54
A refund is your money. It comes back to you if you've overpaid your taxes.

I'll agree on this one. I don't have any taxes taken out of my paycheck. I estimate what I owe, and put that in a separate interest earning account. Then I wait until tax day to mail the check. I've done this for over 20 years and have always been in the black at tax time.

JoeyB
2011-08-05, 09:56
spin requires no research.

JoeyB
2011-08-05, 10:06
Why don't you do a little research on it first before you judge if it will lower taxes on the rich.......

Oh, yeah, I forgot..........you're a Democrat. They don't do such things. :)

they buy more expensive items on a much larger scale and frequency.
therefore they will keep paying their 'share' of tax revenue.
the taxes on the homes we build for them are more than my humble abode.
the taxes on their benz's are more than my auto.
the taxes on their luxury jets are more than my new keen sandals.
the taxes on their catered affairs are more than my dinner for two.
and so on, and so on.

i'm sure he'll spin a wonderful retort to this as well.

sheepdog
2011-08-05, 11:06
Sorry. It's not the same at all. A refund is your money. It comes back to you if you've overpaid your taxes. The sales tax, according to supporters, would provide upfront money, knowing you are going to overpay.

But regardless of all the imagination one has, there is no realistic way around the fact that shifting to an entirely sales tax funded government would cause a mass die off of rich people. They would all die laughing at a country that could be so stupid as to exempt them from even more of the tax burden.

not always. Some get a refund and pay no taxes at all.

Jester
2011-08-05, 14:34
not always. Some get a refund and pay no taxes at all.

If you get a refund of all of the taxes you have paid over the course of the year, then you have by definition paid no taxes for that fiscal year. This doesn't mean that you didn't pay taxes during the course of the year, it just means you got everything back. Any refund one gets is by definition money paid in and received back. It's pretty astounding that you would suggest otherwise. Perhaps you're thinking of something other than refunds? Like tax credits?

Furlough
2011-08-05, 16:36
A local DC radio station did this parody song to the music of You Aint seen Nothing yet. You have to get through the advertisement first, before it plays.

http://www.thebigdc.com/mediaplayer/?station=WBIG-FM&action=ondemand&item=21298758

rcli4
2011-08-05, 18:45
Folks with kids can make about 40,000 and still get more back then they paid in because of the child tax credit.

Skidsteer
2011-08-05, 19:25
If you get a refund of all of the taxes you have paid over the course of the year, then you have by definition paid no taxes for that fiscal year. This doesn't mean that you didn't pay taxes during the course of the year, it just means you got everything back. Any refund one gets is by definition money paid in and received back. It's pretty astounding that you would suggest otherwise. Perhaps you're thinking of something other than refunds? Like tax credits?


Folks with kids can make about 40,000 and still get more back then they paid in because of the child tax credit.

Exactly. Quibbling about semantics is asinine and pisses most of us off when Congress does it.

EIC(Earned Income Tax Credit)gives people money from the Government(meaning you and me) that they did not earn. Even Reagan expanded the program.

The very name is an oxymoron.

Weary
2011-08-05, 20:21
Exactly. Quibbling about semantics is asinine and pisses most of us off when Congress does it.

EIC(Earned Income Tax Credit)gives people money from the Government(meaning you and me) that they did not earn. Even Reagan expanded the program.

The very name is an oxymoron.
I'm not sure, but I think the earned tax credit was adopted under Nixon. Regardless. For those of us who think that one way or another, kids, once born, need the basic necessities to become healthy adults, support the program. I do in particular because two of my kids get the credit, not much, about $1,000 each on top of their mostly minimum wage incomes. They are responsible kids who made wrong choices as teenagers. One married the mother -- and was divorced after four kids. She's had a couple of husbands and a female friend since. She also earned a nursing degree.

But the experienced crippled my son's earning power. But one of his kids has an engineering degree, from a major NE university. Another a nursing degree from a prominent nursing school. Another graduated high school in June. He joins the army in November. A fourth is a freshman at a maritime training college.

The second son still lives with the mother. Both have worked all their lives but with only high school degrees, they have never earned more than enough to barely feed their kid. Their son is likely to graduate from the University of Wisconsin next year. The mother from the University of Maine.

I've helped as much as I could over the years. But when I was at a point where I could have worked into a better paying job, I persisted in pursuing Maine's long lost 400,000 acres of public lots.

We all make choices. Not all of which serve our lives, but occasionally serve society. Those lands now provide 100,000 acres of buffers for the narrow trail corridor in Maine.

Skidsteer
2011-08-05, 20:28
I'm not sure, but I think the earned tax credit was adopted under Nixon.

Ford probably, since it was passed in '75. It's probably fair to say it was conceived in Nixon's administration though.

At any rate, it's an idea that's passed it's prime and done it's time. Sort of like the goat screw we call our tax code.

D'Artagnan
2011-08-05, 23:46
The EITC is a freakin' joke! I'm single. I earn a decent living. I have no children. Every year, I get to see guys around me with less education and income who've got two or three crumb-snatchers running around, get back thousands of dollars because of EITC. Now, if they used that money to support their kids, I'd have no problems with the program. However, I've seen everything from boats to swimming pools to ATVs bought with this "free money". That kinda chaps my ass. There's no equity to our current tax code.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-06, 00:18
Hence, National Sales Tax.

D'Artagnan
2011-08-06, 00:37
Hence, National Sales Tax.

No disagreements here.

Nearly Normal
2011-08-06, 00:49
I agree but too many have to get too much for it to happen.

Cuffs
2011-08-06, 01:02
The EITC is a freakin' joke! I'm single. I earn a decent living. I have no children. Every year, I get to see guys around me with less education and income who've got two or three crumb-snatchers running around, get back thousands of dollars because of EITC. Now, if they used that money to support their kids, I'd have no problems with the program. However, I've seen everything from boats to swimming pools to ATVs bought with this "free money". That kinda chaps my ass. There's no equity to our current tax code.

Totally with ya on that one! I'm less of a burden on every system out there (education, grocery, infrastructure...) because I don't have 2-legged kids. Give me the fuckin credit, not some breeder putting more pressure on the system.

Don't worry MB, I'll make a special rule for fine folks like you who adopt and help those in need!

Nearly Normal
2011-08-06, 01:41
"...did they get they get you to trade... you're heros for gold"....

"...cold comfort for change,
did you exchange?....."

Jester
2011-08-06, 02:53
No disagreements here.

Maybe not there, but certainly one here.

Nearly Normal
2011-08-06, 02:56
Horse piss

Superman
2011-08-06, 09:07
Horse piss

Are you referring to the US losing it's AAA rating? Your politicians are ... er....a bunch of politicians.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-06, 10:09
And why did we loose said rating? Because of the debt, and we didn't do enough to reduce it.

One side said we should reduce it by raising taxes. The other says that we should cut spending and come up with a balanced budget.

But what else is in the news today.............Italy is fixing to go broke as well, bringing the whole European Union down with it......just as Ireland, Greece and Spain are doing.

But wait............didn't we model our Healthcare Plan on European countries? Didn't we say that all we had to do was raise taxes and all would be well with the world and unicorns and leprecauns would frolic next to butterscotch streams under cotton candy skies??? Just as the Europeans did???

So why are they going broke?? They have, to many people's glee, a much higher tax rate. We were looking to them as the example as to how higher taxes made them SOOOO much better.

And guess what they are enacting in Italy to overcome all of this debt.

A balanced budget amendment. So it isn't a tax revenue problem..........IT'S A SPENDING PROBLEM.

Whodathunk?

Weary
2011-08-06, 10:11
Are you referring to the US losing it's AAA rating? Your politicians are ... er....a bunch of politicians.
The diatribes against the earned tax credit help explain why our government has become totally disfunctional. Eliminating the credit would probably reduce the deficit a half of one percent, but so far it is the only thing mentioned in this thread.

The mantra, "no new taxes, just cut spending" reflects beliefs, not logical, economic analysis. It's the view of politicians not of any responsible economists that I've read. Economists almost unanimously say that without increased revenue the deficit can't be eliminated.

The tax increases enacted under Bill Clinton resulted in both prosperity and a balanced budget. The tax decreases under his successor resulted in an almost immediate return to deficit spending.

The military and interest on our existing debt uses up most of the money raised by taxes, or soon will. All other activities of government would have to be slashed without new tax income. That means little or no maintenance of national parks and forests, no forest legacy that our Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust had been counting on, no medical research, no medicare, no medicaid, no environmental regulation of industry, no regulation of banks ....

It means a return to polluted rivers, even dirtier air, no federal deposit insurance, failed banks, no labor laws, less safe work places. This list is endless.

Two Speed
2011-08-06, 10:51
stupid is as stupid doesHey, looky, WBC has worked a miracle! A conservative and a liberal agree completely on an issue!!! :beer:
I knew they were stupid but surely they realize that Norway doesn't give a rat's ass about their constitutional rights.
a few years back . . . because their mini van was spotted head back west to kansas before they could attend the ceremony.Maybe folks here are starting to get WBC's number and they're having to find broader horizons? Just my $0.02, but that couldn't happen to a nicer or more deserving crowd.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled arguing. :bandit:

Superman
2011-08-06, 11:44
[QUOTE=Two Speed;247416]Hey, looky, WBC has worked a miracle! A conservative and a liberal agree completely on an issue!!! :beer:

Am I the conservative or the liberal. My conservative friends are sure that I'm a liberal and my liberal friends are sure that I'm a conservative.:bike:

Two Speed
2011-08-06, 11:54
Hey, looky, WBC has accomplished absolutely nothing! A retard and another retard agree completely on an issue!!! :beer:My bad. I fixed it.

Jester
2011-08-06, 15:29
And why did we loose said rating? Because of the debt, and we didn't do enough to reduce it.


"S&P has gone out of its way to point to the political brinkmanship over the debt ceiling as a key reason for the downgrade.
That puts the blame squarely on lawmakers -- and the political culture they cultivate and participate in.
"The first thing [lawmakers] could have done is to have raised the debt ceilng in a timely manner so that much of this debate had been avoided to begin with, as it had done 60 or 70 times since 1960 without that much debate," Chambers said."

John Chambers is the head of sovereign ratings at S&P.

Nearly Normal
2011-08-06, 19:20
Horse piss.

sheepdog
2011-08-06, 19:45
Horse piss.

:dito:

Nearly Normal
2011-08-06, 20:05
Someone kill me if I post to this thread again.

Skidsteer
2011-08-06, 20:10
"The first thing [lawmakers] could have done is to have raised the debt ceilng in a timely manner so that much of this debate had been avoided to begin with, as it had done 60 or 70 times since 1960 without that much debate," Chambers said."

The first fucking thing they should do is stop spending money they don't have.

rcli4
2011-08-06, 20:28
The first fucking thing they should do is stop spending money they don't have.

No, they should raise my taxes because I don't pay my fair share. I worked 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 30 years and saved and invested while most folks were working 40 hrs a week and taking vacations and want me to pay for their fucking health care because they need their quality of life....

Clyde

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-06, 21:13
"S&P has gone out of its way to point to the political brinkmanship over the debt ceiling as a key reason for the downgrade.
That puts the blame squarely on lawmakers -- and the political culture they cultivate and participate in.
"The first thing [lawmakers] could have done is to have raised the debt ceilng in a timely manner so that much of this debate had been avoided to begin with, as it had done 60 or 70 times since 1960 without that much debate," Chambers said."

John Chambers is the head of sovereign ratings at S&P.

Thanks for totally ignoring the rest of the rant.

And I've also read numerous reports from numerous other sources stating it was because they wanted us to reduce the debt almost 5 billion over the next ten years.

But still ignores the fact that Italy is in bad shape right now, and is fixing to take the rest of the EU with it, and how they are utilizing a balanced budget amendment to rectify it.

JoeyB
2011-08-06, 21:34
How to be a good liberal:

1. You have to believe the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.

2. You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat, than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Iranian terrorists.

4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.

5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth's climate, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.

6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.

7. You have to be against capital punishment but support abortion on demand.

8. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who've never been outside of Seattle do.

10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

11. You have to believe the military, not corrupt politicians, start wars.

12. You have to believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, General Robert E. Lee, or Thomas Edison.

15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren't.

16. You have to believe Hillary Clinton is really a lady.

17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried, is because the right people haven't been in charge.

18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and sex offender belongs in the White House.

19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality should be constitutionally protected and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.

20. You have to believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese is somehow in the best interest of the United States.

with an extra emphasis placed on #8.

Kanga
2011-08-06, 21:43
amen.

Lugnut
2011-08-06, 22:32
I like that! :adore:

Jester
2011-08-07, 01:15
Thanks for totally ignoring the rest of the rant.

And I've also read numerous reports from numerous other sources stating it was because they wanted us to reduce the debt almost 5 billion over the next ten years.

But still ignores the fact that Italy is in bad shape right now, and is fixing to take the rest of the EU with it, and how they are utilizing a balanced budget amendment to rectify it.

No problem! I was responding to what you put up front, assuming you weren't the sort of person to bury the lead. And besides, none of what you followed with has anything to do with our debt rating.

As for "other sources," well, yeah, there are questions about sustainability, but I'm pretty sure those "other sources" probably don't know as much about the department within S&P that determines the ratings than the guy who is the head of the department.

As for Italy, you're probably the first person in the history of America to essentially say, "hey, let's do what the Italian government does. They really seem to know what they're doing."


How to be a good liberal:

1. You have to believe the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.

2. You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat, than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Iranian terrorists.

4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.

5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth's climate, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.

6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.

7. You have to be against capital punishment but support abortion on demand.

8. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who've never been outside of Seattle do.

10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

11. You have to believe the military, not corrupt politicians, start wars.

12. You have to believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, General Robert E. Lee, or Thomas Edison.

15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren't.

16. You have to believe Hillary Clinton is really a lady.

17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried, is because the right people haven't been in charge.

18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and sex offender belongs in the White House.

19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality should be constitutionally protected and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.

20. You have to believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese is somehow in the best interest of the United States.

with an extra emphasis placed on #8.

The opposite list is easier:
How to be a good conservative:
1)You have to believe that the above list applies to all liberals.

By the way, I'm guessing this is Clinton era nonsense. There must be an updated one of these floating around somewhere . . .

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-07, 01:50
No problem! I was responding to what you put up front, assuming you weren't the sort of person to bury the lead. And besides, none of what you followed with has anything to do with our debt rating.


If you fail to see the connection, it doesn't mean it isn't there. Europe is heading down the path to what socialism leads to, and they are fixing to get hit very hard. Mark my words. Europe's finances are fixing to tumble like a row of dominoes, and the thing is, it's already moving....




As for "other sources," well, yeah, there are questions about sustainability, but I'm pretty sure those "other sources" probably don't know as much about the department within S&P that determines the ratings than the guy who is the head of the department.


I'm sure the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, AP all talk to more sources than just one within the S&P. All stated it was mainly due to the lack of cutting our debt.




As for Italy, you're probably the first person in the history of America to essentially say, "hey, let's do what the Italian government does. They really seem to know what they're doing."



Oh, please...........how do you think Oblahblahcare got passed in the first place??? How many times were European countries used as an example of how great it is and how we should adopt what they were doing?

But now that the Europeans are getting bit in the butt (which I also stated was coming long before any of this came down, because I've actually talked with people who left European nations for this very reason), it's "Well, that's not happening here........it's because of the Republicans........"

Riiiiiggghhhtt.

Weary
2011-08-07, 10:35
amen.
Actually it's a bunch of ignorant crap that is believed by the increasingly ignorant. The wide belief in such crap is why our government has become disfunctional. Until such stupid diatribes are widely ridiculed this nation will continue to decline.

Weary
2011-08-07, 10:54
And why did we loose said rating? Because of the debt, and we didn't do enough to reduce it.

One side said we should reduce it by raising taxes. The other says that we should cut spending and come up with a balanced budget.

But what else is in the news today.............Italy is fixing to go broke as well, bringing the whole European Union down with it......just as Ireland, Greece and Spain are doing.

But wait............didn't we model our Healthcare Plan on European countries? Didn't we say that all we had to do was raise taxes and all would be well with the world and unicorns and leprecauns would frolic next to butterscotch streams under cotton candy skies??? Just as the Europeans did???

So why are they going broke?? They have, to many people's glee, a much higher tax rate. We were looking to them as the example as to how higher taxes made them SOOOO much better.

And guess what they are enacting in Italy to overcome all of this debt.

A balanced budget amendment. So it isn't a tax revenue problem..........IT'S A SPENDING PROBLEM.

Whodathunk?
Actually, the rating agency didn't say any such thing. It said:
....it was cutting its rating of long-term federal debt to AA+, one notch below the top grade of AAA. It described the decision as a judgment about the nation’s leaders, writing that “the gulf between the political parties” had reduced its confidence in the government’s ability to manage its finances.

“The downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenge,” the company said in a statement.

Ewker
2011-08-07, 11:39
The opposite list is easier:
How to be a good conservative:
1)You have to believe that the above list applies to all liberals.


worth repeating :aetsch:

Ewker
2011-08-07, 11:43
(This applies to both parties)

A recent cognitive study, as reported by the Boston Globe, concluded that:


Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

In light of these findings, researchers concluded that a defense mechanism, which they labeled “backfire”, was preventing individuals from producing pure rational thought. The result is a self-delusion that appears so regularly in normal thinking that we fail to detect it in ourselves, and often in others: When faced with facts that do not fit seamlessly into our individual belief systems, our minds automatically reject (or backfire) the presented facts. The result of backfire is that we become even more entrenched in our beliefs, even if those beliefs are totally or partially false.

rcli4
2011-08-07, 11:44
As for "other sources," well, yeah, there are questions about sustainability,

The opposite list is easier:
How to be a good conservative:
1)You have to believe that the above list applies to all liberals.

By the way, I'm guessing this is Clinton era nonsense. There must be an updated one of these floating around somewhere . . .[/QUOTE]


Actually it's a bunch of ignorant crap that is believed by the increasingly ignorant. The wide belief in such crap is why our government has become disfunctional. Until such stupid diatribes are widely ridiculed this nation will continue to decline.

Please tell us which ones you don't believe in???

Clyde

Two Speed
2011-08-07, 11:51
(This applies to both parties) . . . The result of backfire is that we become even more entrenched in our beliefs, even if those beliefs are totally or partially false.Ayup. :beer:

Weary
2011-08-07, 13:17
As for "other sources," well, yeah, there are questions about sustainability,

The opposite list is easier:
How to be a good conservative:
1)You have to believe that the above list applies to all liberals.

By the way, I'm guessing this is Clinton era nonsense. There must be an updated one of these floating around somewhere . . .



Please tell us which ones you don't believe in???

Clyde[/QUOTE]
I am proud to be a "liberal," which really is just another term for those who base their opinions on facts, analysis, and rational thinking.

I don't believe in any of the half truths, illogic, and falsehoods that every item on the list contained.

Jester
2011-08-07, 13:52
Please tell us which ones you don't believe in???

Clyde



I don't believe in any of the half truths, illogic, and falsehoods that every item on the list contained.

Ditto. The list isn't meant to be a list of things "good liberals" believe. It is meant simply to ridicule. Coming up with lists of logically fallacious aphorisms isn't really that difficult; if I wanted to I could make up one for conservatives. But I don't see how that would really contribute to the political conversation. Do you?

Lugnut
2011-08-07, 13:55
Probably not but us right wingers can, and do, enjoy laughing at ourselves at times. :angel:

Jester
2011-08-07, 14:20
Probably not but us right wingers can, and do, enjoy laughing at ourselves at times. :angel:

Ahhh, so that list was meant to be something lighthearted and fun, that we could all chuckle at? I suppose I missed that. I took it for what it actually is -- a list that the author doesn't actually believe, meant to belittle and mock liberalism. A list that, unfortunately, others seem to want to believe is actually true.

So if I posted, "Conservatives are opposed to affordable health care for all but are perfectly fine with having their child raped repeatedly by a relative and being forced to give birth to a genetically misshapen child who will be a constant reminder of the assaults," you'd give that a big hearty laugh? Somehow I don't think you would. I think you'd recognize it for what it is.

But your response is instructive, in that you're unwittingly following along with the concept of the list, which is to create false points of demarcation between political philosophies. There are plenty of conservatives and liberals who enjoy "laughing at [themselves] at times." Consevatives don't hold a monopoly on self-deprication. I also know conservatives & liberals who take themselves too seriously.

Boobs.

Lugnut
2011-08-07, 14:54
With the exception of two or three items that list was humor and most should be able to see that.

Kanga
2011-08-07, 15:01
Ahhh, so that list was meant to be something lighthearted and fun, that we could all chuckle at? I suppose I missed that. I took it for what it actually is -- a list that the author doesn't actually believe, meant to belittle and mock liberalism. A list that, unfortunately, others seem to want to believe is actually true.

So if I posted, "Conservatives are opposed to affordable health care for all but are perfectly fine with having their child raped repeatedly by a relative and being forced to give birth to a genetically misshapen child who will be a constant reminder of the assaults," you'd give that a big hearty laugh? Somehow I don't think you would. I think you'd recognize it for what it is.

But your response is instructive, in that you're unwittingly following along with the concept of the list, which is to create false points of demarcation between political philosophies. There are plenty of conservatives and liberals who enjoy "laughing at [themselves] at times." Consevatives don't hold a monopoly on self-deprication. I also know conservatives & liberals who take themselves too seriously.

Boobs.


actually, you're pretty damn close. no, i do NOT believe in gov't mandated health care. no, i do not want the family molester to be prosecuted. i want to deal with him myself. also, though the child may turn out deformed or genetically "challenged" (wouldn't want to offend the liberals..), i believe that all life is sacred and i still would not believe in abortion. yes, it would be a trial on both the parent and the rest of the family, but running away from trials is what is turning everybody into a fucking pussy. life is hard. suck it up and quit whining.

Weary
2011-08-07, 15:05
Probably not but us right wingers can, and do, enjoy laughing at ourselves at times. :angel:
Then post a list of things conservatives believe in. Then we can all chuckle.
Like "if you have social security, be careful how you vote because conservatives want to take it away."

There are even humorous things one might write about liberals. How about, "If you have Social Security, thank a liberal." Or maybe, "if you have Medicare, thank a liberal."

Conservative politicians, with their great sense of humor, no longer attack such liberal successes. They just propose to quietly remove funding in hopes voters won't notice.

Conservatives walk a fine line. They don't openly oppose popular programs for fear of offending a majority of voters.

For instance, the leading conservative politicians, who loved to oppose gay marriage, now are backpeddling as polls show a majority of voters now recognize the basic fairness of the concept.

Those who insist that political debate doesn't change minds are wrong. Only debate changes minds, as liberals have always known.

That's why conservatives oppose debate. They know rational discussion is a loser for them.

The simple fact: Liberals have always provided all the long term leadership in this country. We are the innovators, the thinkers. We believe the purpose of government is to solve problems.

Jester
2011-08-07, 15:09
actually, you're pretty damn close. no, i do NOT believe in gov't mandated health care. no, i do not want the family molester to be prosecuted. i want to deal with him myself. also, though the child may turn out deformed or genetically "challenged" (wouldn't want to offend the liberals..), i believe that all life is sacred and i still would not believe in abortion. yes, it would be a trial on both the parent and the rest of the family, but running away from trials is what is turning everybody into a fucking pussy. life is hard. suck it up and quit whining.

See, here's the thing, Kanga: your response is nuanced (believe it or not); you have a reason behind your thinking. But your point of view is not what I said. What I said was that you wouldn't mind. Which is pretty frickin' far from wanting to deal with the molester yourself.

So if you actually read what I wrote, and take it at face value, you'd say, "no. That doesn't describe me."

But all of that doesn't matter, because this is apparently humor. Didn't you find it hilarious? No? I thought it was pretty stupid myself, certainly not my best effort, and certainly not something I believe about conservatives. It was just mean spirited, which was my point.

Kanga
2011-08-07, 15:14
See, here's the thing, Kanga: your response is nuanced (believe it or not); you have a reason behind your thinking. But your point of view is not what I said. What I said was that you wouldn't mind. Which is pretty frickin' far from wanting to deal with the molester yourself.

So if you actually read what I wrote, and take it at face value, you'd say, "no. That doesn't describe me."

But all of that doesn't matter, because this is apparently humor. Didn't you find it hilarious? No? I thought it was pretty stupid myself, certainly not my best effort, and certainly not something I believe about conservatives. It was just mean spirited, which was my point.

what's really funny is when you get on the politcal forums and the liberals are ranting about just those things..

rcli4
2011-08-07, 15:36
Ditto. The list isn't meant to be a list of things "good liberals" believe. It is meant simply to ridicule. Coming up with lists of logically fallacious aphorisms isn't really that difficult; if I wanted to I could make up one for conservatives. But I don't see how that would really contribute to the political conversation. Do you?

Jester and Weary, you both seem to be reasonably intelligent. Answer me this question.....

In 1999 I bid a project that would start in 2000 and be completed in 2004. It was digging lakes and canals for a large development. I went out and borrowed 379,000 dollars to buy an excavator. In order to pay for it and finish the job with just one machine it would need to operate 70 hrs a week for the entire time. I paid 25,000 in taxes when I purchased the machine and another 8,000 in fees and stamps(taxes) at the bank. I hired a man to operate it 40 hrs a week. I went each day at 4 in the afternoon and ran it 4 hrs and on Sat. I ran it 12 hours. That is everyday for 4 years. The govt let me write off 10% of the value of the machine that I paid for in 4 years so I paid taxes on the income that the machine generated yearly. I matched the operators SSI for four years. The machine burns about 100 gals of fuel a day that carries about 1.23 a gallon in taxes so I paid about $123.00 a day for 4 years in fuel tax alone. I paid about 94,000 in taxes on that one project alone. The profit that I made after taxes I invested back in my company. I spent every Sunday doing paper work to make sure I complied with all IRS rules. I paid for 16 employees health insurance matched their 401K and supplied 4 with company trucks. In 2005 I sold my company that I had built and reinvested most of the profits back into. We basically lived off my wife's salary as a nurse. When I sold my company I paid more in taxes then most folks pay in a lifetime after paying taxes on the money it took to build the company.

Now liberals want me to pay more taxes then the current 36% I am paying on the return of invested money that I paid tax on twice already. You choose to work(Jester) at an outfitter instead of a job with more demands on your time so you can live the lifestyle you prefer. Explain to me why when I worked 70 hr weeks while you hiked should I pay for your health care or your safety net? How have I not already paid my fair share?

Clyde

Jester
2011-08-07, 15:37
what's really funny is when you get on the politcal forums and the liberals are ranting about just those things..

Yup. Some liberals do it to; just as no political philosophy has a molopoly on self-deprication, none has a monopoly on morons. But I think it sad rather than funny.

I regret evan responding to JoeyB's post at all at this point; it did what such things usually do, which is derail actual discussion of actual problems. I have to go to work (liberals actually go to work too! We're not all on welfare! And not everyone on welfare is liberal!), but I'll post a response to Monkeyboy's post (which was actually about something important) later.

Jester
2011-08-07, 15:41
Jester and Weary, you both seem to be reasonably intelligent. Answer me this question.....

In 1999 I bid a project that would start in 2000 and be completed in 2004. It was digging lakes and canals for a large development. I went out and borrowed 379,000 dollars to buy an excavator. In order to pay for it and finish the job with just one machine it would need to operate 70 hrs a week for the entire time. I paid 25,000 in taxes when I purchased the machine and another 8,000 in fees and stamps(taxes) at the bank. I hired a man to operate it 40 hrs a week. I went each day at 4 in the afternoon and ran it 4 hrs and on Sat. I ran it 12 hours. That is everyday for 4 years. The govt let me write off 10% of the value of the machine that I paid for in 4 years so I paid taxes on the income that the machine generated yearly. I matched the operators SSI for four years. The machine burns about 100 gals of fuel a day that carries about 1.23 a gallon in taxes so I paid about $123.00 a day for 4 years in fuel tax alone. I paid about 94,000 in taxes on that one project alone. The profit that I made after taxes I invested back in my company. I spent every Sunday doing paper work to make sure I complied with all IRS rules. I paid for 16 employees health insurance matched their 401K and supplied 4 with company trucks. In 2005 I sold my company that I had built and reinvested most of the profits back into. We basically lived off my wife's salary as a nurse. When I sold my company I paid more in taxes then most folks pay in a lifetime after paying taxes on the money it took to build the company.

Now liberals want me to pay more taxes then the current 36% I am paying on the return of invested money that I paid tax on twice already. You choose to work(Jester) at an outfitter instead of a job with more demands on your time so you can live the lifestyle you prefer. Explain to me why when I worked 70 hr weeks while you hiked should I pay for your health care or your safety net? How have I not already paid my fair share?

Clyde

I'll try and post a decent answer to your question later, but for now I'll just note that I don't work at an outfitter anymore, and I have my own health insurance. Off to work!

rcli4
2011-08-07, 15:44
I'll try and post a decent answer to your question later, but for now I'll just note that I don't work at an outfitter anymore, and I have my own health insurance. Off to work!

Try to reply to the concept. You choose your job, I chose mine. Why do you think you have the right to the rewards of my choices and hard work to supplement your choices?

Clyde

Rockhound
2011-08-07, 16:03
Jester and Weary, you both seem to be reasonably intelligent. Answer me this question.....

In 1999 I bid a project that would start in 2000 and be completed in 2004. It was digging lakes and canals for a large development. I went out and borrowed 379,000 dollars to buy an excavator. In order to pay for it and finish the job with just one machine it would need to operate 70 hrs a week for the entire time. I paid 25,000 in taxes when I purchased the machine and another 8,000 in fees and stamps(taxes) at the bank. I hired a man to operate it 40 hrs a week. I went each day at 4 in the afternoon and ran it 4 hrs and on Sat. I ran it 12 hours. That is everyday for 4 years. The govt let me write off 10% of the value of the machine that I paid for in 4 years so I paid taxes on the income that the machine generated yearly. I matched the operators SSI for four years. The machine burns about 100 gals of fuel a day that carries about 1.23 a gallon in taxes so I paid about $123.00 a day for 4 years in fuel tax alone. I paid about 94,000 in taxes on that one project alone. The profit that I made after taxes I invested back in my company. I spent every Sunday doing paper work to make sure I complied with all IRS rules. I paid for 16 employees health insurance matched their 401K and supplied 4 with company trucks. In 2005 I sold my company that I had built and reinvested most of the profits back into. We basically lived off my wife's salary as a nurse. When I sold my company I paid more in taxes then most folks pay in a lifetime after paying taxes on the money it took to build the company.

Now liberals want me to pay more taxes then the current 36% I am paying on the return of invested money that I paid tax on twice already. You choose to work(Jester) at an outfitter instead of a job with more demands on your time so you can live the lifestyle you prefer. Explain to me why when I worked 70 hr weeks while you hiked should I pay for your health care or your safety net? How have I not already paid my fair share?

ClydeJust when I thought I couldn't have more disdain for Clyde then I already do. I now find out he is one of those corrupt Florida land pimps helping to destroy, rather than protect the very state he lives in. Aside from the fact he tends to be a rude arrogant ass to anyone who does not share his pompous, narrow minded perspective.

Big Mac
2011-08-07, 16:17
OK - I'm confused. Is this still supposed to be a humorous thread?

rcli4
2011-08-07, 16:29
Just when I thought I couldn't have more disdain for Clyde then I already do. I now find out he is one of those corrupt Florida land pimps helping to destroy, rather than protect the very state he lives in. Aside from the fact he tends to be a rude arrogant ass to anyone who does not share his pompous, narrow minded perspective.

....but the taxes I paid saved your sorry assed life....

Clyde

rcli4
2011-08-07, 16:33
Just when I thought I couldn't have more disdain for Clyde then I already do. I now find out he is one of those corrupt Florida land pimps helping to destroy, rather than protect the very state he lives in. Aside from the fact he tends to be a rude arrogant ass to anyone who does not share his pompous, narrow minded perspective.

The lakes and canals I dug were part of the restoration project of the cross florida canal and rodman dam project. Before jumping to conclusions you might want to look into the largest environmental restoration project in the states history. Asshole

Clyde

Kanga
2011-08-07, 16:50
i love you clyde.

Weary
2011-08-07, 17:06
....Now liberals want me to pay more taxes then the current 36% I am paying on the return of invested money that I paid tax on twice already. You choose to work(Jester) at an outfitter instead of a job with more demands on your time so you can live the lifestyle you prefer. Explain to me why when I worked 70 hr weeks while you hiked should I pay for your health care or your safety net? How have I not already paid my fair share? Clyde
I don't have the knowledge to analyze your finances. But from all the evidence, you worked hard and were able to retire at a relatively young age. Congratulations. What is the problem?

The fact remains that the deficit can't be eliminated without an increase in government income, according to all the economists I've read. It's the blanket refusal to even consider such an alternative that resulted in the downgrading of this nation's credit rating.

It's my belief, based on everything I can learn, that without a more functional government you and the nation faces far greater problems than a marginal increase in taxes.

The chorus has already begun among conservatives seeking to blame the fiscal disaster on Obama. By trumpeting the big lie, they hope to obscure the truth. It's an old technique. Dictatorships have used it throughout history. Democratic governments until recently have been immune. We shall see.

rcli4
2011-08-07, 17:16
I don't have the knowledge to analyze your finances. But from all the evidence, you worked hard and were able to retire at a relatively young age. Congratulations. What is the problem?
.

The problem is that Obama and you want to change the rules. I retired under a set of rules that dictate my income. Now you think i don't pay my fair share. Just what is my fair share and what is Rockhound's fair share. Two people sucking up life in these United States. You have the ordasity to imply I'm not doing enough? How about the parasites of society, Bless his heart.....

Clyde

Skidsteer
2011-08-07, 17:30
Morally and economically, the welfare state creates an ever accelerating downward pull. Morally, the chance to satisfy demands by force spreads the demands wider and wider, with less and less pretense at justification. Economically, the forced demands of one group create hardships for all others, thus producing an inextricable mixture of actual victims and plain parasites.

Ayn Rand

Kanga
2011-08-07, 17:35
The fact remains that the deficit can't be eliminated without an increase in government income, according to all the economists I've read. It's the blanket refusal to even consider such an alternative that resulted in the downgrading of this nation's credit rating.


holy fuck! are you even listening to yourself? the government doesn't need MORE of our money to spend!! THEY NEED TO STOP SPENDING!!! what about that do you not fucking understand?!

Kanga
2011-08-07, 17:36
Tanstaafl!

Big Mac
2011-08-07, 17:44
The real problem here is that all of you think you can change someone's mind about their political views by arguing about it on an online forum. It's not going to happen, just stop trying for God's sake.

(although if you really did, which I doubt, it would really cut down on my amusement)

rcli4
2011-08-07, 17:48
The real problem here is that all of you think you can change someone's mind about their political views by arguing about it on an online forum. It's not going to happen, just stop trying for God's sake.

(although if you really did, which I doubt, it would really cut down on my amusement)

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I am trying my best to understand where people get the idea that they have a right to my money. I am tired as hell of people saying I don't pay my fair share when "my share" came from my hard work and their share includes 6 months to hike.

Clyde

woodsy
2011-08-07, 17:52
The real problem here is that all of you think you can change someone's mind about their political views by arguing about it on an online forum. It's not going to happen, just stop trying for God's sake.

(although if you really did, which I doubt, it would really cut down on my amusement)

The real entertainment will begin when everyone gets down to some serious
name calling . Quit holding back y'all !
All on line political discussions eventually get there.


" You are a *%#@+^?O&#% "

"No, You are a &%#+*^@O#^" etc. etc.

I'll get the popcorn ready.....:angel:

Kanga
2011-08-07, 17:54
i honestly don't give a fuck what others do with their time. if they want to go hike for 6 months, then go hike for 6 months. or go sit in a cardboard box in a fucking alley. but i am not fucking paying for you to do it! get off your lazy fucking ass and get a fucking job! i am responsible for me. you are responsible for you. if you can't cut the mustard, that is not my fucking problem.

Kanga
2011-08-07, 17:54
fucking lazy whiny liberal pussies!!





(how's that, woodsy?)

woodsy
2011-08-07, 17:58
fucking lazy whiny liberal pussies!!





(how's that, woodsy?)

Thats a start but kinda mild for you.

Kanga
2011-08-07, 17:59
i swear to god, i can't make you happy no matter what. are you a liberal?

woodsy
2011-08-07, 18:04
i swear to god, i can't make you happy no matter what. are you a liberal?

Whats a liberal ? I don't wear any labels but when it comes to politics i'm a flip flopper meaning I'll vote my conscience regardless of party.

Kanga
2011-08-07, 18:06
a liberal is somebody who thinks everything in life should be fair and even.

Weary
2011-08-07, 19:37
Morally and economically, the welfare state creates an ever accelerating downward pull. Morally, the chance to satisfy demands by force spreads the demands wider and wider, with less and less pretense at justification. Economically, the forced demands of one group create hardships for all others, thus producing an inextricable mixture of actual victims and plain parasites.
Ayn Rand
You're behind the times. The welfare state as understood by Ann Rand was ended under Bill Clinton. Welfare now ends after five years at most. We still try not to let kids starve, but their parents have to work -- or in Maine go to school -- or the gravy train stops.

One measure of the lack of thought by conservatives is that they rarely keep up with what's happening. They just huddled among themselves ignoring any intrusion of facts.

Weary
2011-08-07, 19:43
holy fuck! are you even listening to yourself? the government doesn't need MORE of our money to spend!! THEY NEED TO STOP SPENDING!!! what about that do you not fucking understand?!
Well most economists disagree. It would help your thinking if you would ponder what programs you want to abolish and research how much that would reduce spending.

One can always tell when someone lacks words based on serious thought that reflect facts by introducing vulgarities. Your message says nothing other than you want to stop spending, but have no idea about which spending you believe should be cut.

SGT Rock
2011-08-07, 20:02
Well ya'll, I'm sorry I started this. I wanted to express how fed up I was with the political name calling crap grid locking the country and causing real issues that are affecting us all. It isn't just that each side thinks it is right, that has always been, it is that each side thinks there is no room for compromise on these issues and that feuding and making asinine statements about what the other side thinks is causing our country to mire down. Both sides have very valid points, and if both sides would compromise on some of their points - we could function. As it is, neither will and we are all fucked.

So back to old policy, no more politics.