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sailingsoul
2011-08-12, 01:23
Hello everyone. I came across something today that I want to post on, so you might respond with any thoughts and feed back on. I was watching some camping/food videos on youtube and came across one put out by a mom. She did a vid' sharing her tips on saving cooking work and easy clean up, when camping with a family. What she suggested and I assume does when camping was this for a breakfast meal.
She cracks some eggs and put them into a freezer ziplock plastic baggy. She also cut up some peppers, cheese, seasoning and what have you for an omelet. I assume she keeps it cold until cooked up. While not the kind of thing a back packer would carry for every long, do to the inability of keeping it cold very long, it would work with RV or van camping where one has a cooler or frig' about for proper storage over days. Anyway, when it comes to cooking it up she put the bag into boiling water and cooked it up in the bag, for 10 minutes or so. One would think not a bad system but I got to wondering about the safety of this method of cooking. Boiling your food in a ziplock bag. I have heard warnings about not heating up your food at home in your microwave in plastic food containers not specifically microwave safe due to the problem of some plastics not being safe for heating food in. Certainly cooking one's food in a freezer bag is not it's intended use. What are your thoughts on this practice and do you see it as a safe practice or something that should be best avoided? :captain: SS

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 01:31
We do it all the time with our Boy Scouts. Call it omelet in a bag. No cleanup other than cutting boards and knives. Boil water in a big turkey fryer pot and have all of us drop their bag in for a few minutes, after putting our names on the ziploc with a sharpie.

And boiling in plastic is not a problem. Remember the Chipped Beef in the freezer section where you just boil the bag in a pot of water. Same principle. Not to mention, how many of your cooking utensils are made out of plastic. I think microwaving plastic is the problem, not the heat per se.

And use the freezer bags, not the normal sandwich ziplocs.

And BTW........the omelets are delicious.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 01:34
Oh, and you can still do it backpacking. Don't crack the eggs or cut up your stuff until you are ready to cook. You can keep an unrefrigerated uncracked egg for days. Just make sure you put it in a plastic container to keep it from cracking inside your pack.

The only reason we refrigerate them is for salmonella, which isn't a problem if you cook the egg until it is done......

As a matter of fact, in many European countries and Austrailia, you buy eggs on a shelf just like bread.

I think it has to do with the fact that a chickens butt isn't refrigerated........ :)

Tin Man
2011-08-12, 04:21
We do the freezer bag omelet stuff in scouts too. We no longer do it backpacking though due to the boil time and amount of fuel to get er done. My uncle kept eggs for weeks on a a sail across the atlantic by coating them in petroluem jelly, which serves to keep the air out of the egg that causes them to spoil. To check the egg to see if it is safe put it into a glass of water. If it sinks to the bottom, it has not been compromised with air - this test works at home too if you are not sure about some older eggs at the back of the fridge.

Kanga
2011-08-12, 08:17
The plastic in the microwave no-no has something to do with the micro-waves themselves, not the temperatures. Bit do make sure you use the freezer bags. The others will melt on you.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 09:46
We do the freezer bag omelet stuff in scouts too. We no longer do it backpacking though due to the boil time and amount of fuel to get er done. My uncle kept eggs for weeks on a a sail across the atlantic by coating them in petroluem jelly, which serves to keep the air out of the egg that causes them to spoil. To check the egg to see if it is safe put it into a glass of water. If it sinks to the bottom, it has not been compromised with air - this test works at home too if you are not sure about some older eggs at the back of the fridge.

Getting the eggs and dipping them in boiling water for two or three seconds also seals the egg from air getting in.

By doing this, you could get an egg to last for almost a month with no refrigeration.


And that's one big sail.....how did he get a sail that reached across the Atlantic?? That's a lot of fabric....

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 09:47
The other way to check the egg is when you crack it into the pan or bowl.

If the egg is fresh, the egg yolk stays round. The older it gets, the more it wants to spread and lay down. If the yolk is flat, it's too old.

Weary
2011-08-12, 11:41
I suspect cooking an occasional omelet in a freezer ziplock dunked in boiling water is pretty harmless, especially for old people who will die soon anyway.

But I wouldn't recommend the practice for kids. The company that makes ziplocks says it appreciates that people are finding innovative uses for its product, but warns against placing bags with food inside in boiling water.

Why? Ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.

The last I heard, the FDA has never tested the use of ziplocks as a cooking utensil -- probably because it hadn't heard about scoutmasters urging their kids to cook in the bags.

Maybe the agency will be abolished soon and we won't have to worry about its recomendations anymore.

Tin Man
2011-08-12, 11:59
yeah, the fda will be abolished... about the same time as congress stops stuffing their bills with pork

Cuffs
2011-08-12, 12:15
Its mostly #7 plastics that contain the BPA. (Theres BPA in lots of plastics, but the scare that started a couple years back is specifically aimed at #7)

Age and condition of bottles does not affect the rate at which BPA leaches from the plastic. Heat, however does change the rate at which the BPA infects the contents.

Moral: dont cook hot food or drink hot beverages from #7 plastic bottles, bags, plates...

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 13:47
Ziplocs do not contain BPA or dioxin (which is released from some plastics at high temps).

Ziplocs are made of polypropylene.....the safest, cleanest source of plastic on the market.

If you are worried about polypropylene, then you need to get rid of every plastic spatula and cooking utensil in your house.

Cuffs
2011-08-12, 14:03
Ziplocs do not contain BPA or dioxin (which is released from some plastics at high temps).

Ziplocs are made of polypropylene.....the safest, cleanest source of plastic on the market.

If you are worried about polypropylene, then you need to get rid of every plastic spatula and cooking utensil in your house.

Get rid of your base layers too!

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 14:31
I don't cook with my base layers...... :)

Hog On Ice
2011-08-12, 14:31
Get rid of your base layers too!

yeah - cook naked

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 14:34
Just don't cook bacon naked. It hurts.

Kanga
2011-08-12, 15:14
not if you do it right.

D'Artagnan
2011-08-12, 15:19
not if you do it right.

Now there's a cooking show I'd watch. :ahhhhh:

Ray
2011-08-12, 15:44
I suspect cooking an occasional omelet in a freezer ziplock dunked in boiling water is pretty harmless, especially for old people who will die soon anyway.

But I wouldn't recommend the practice for kids. The company that makes ziplocks says it appreciates that people are finding innovative uses for its product, but warns against placing bags with food inside in boiling water.

Why? Ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.

The last I heard, the FDA has never tested the use of ziplocks as a cooking utensil -- probably because it hadn't heard about scoutmasters urging their kids to cook in the bags.

Maybe the agency will be abolished soon and we won't have to worry about its recommendations anymore.Let's see a link?

While you're looking for it, check out Ziplock's recipe section (http://www.ziploc.com/Recipes/Pages/RecipesHome.aspx?recipe=1&mainIngredient=Dairy%20%2F%20Eggs) which includes 3 different omelets, with directions for cooking directly inside a Ziplock bag.

Maybe there's a difference between microwaving inside a bag instead of dunking the bag in boiling water. I doubt it. There will be a difference in product strength using the recommended bag for cooking vs. bags meant for storage but the differences are in design rather than materials.

If a bag is designed for storage then Ziplock can't officially recommend that the product be used for cooking. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some official statement about that. Or if they say polypropylene would soften at that temperature and the bags strength would be below their original design parameter.

But the part about Ziplock saying their bags will release noxious fumes at relatively low temperatures sounds like pure bullshit.

JERMM
2011-08-12, 16:40
gack....plastics...you're all gonna catch boobie cancer...:afraid:

Weary
2011-08-12, 17:49
yeah, the fda will be abolished... about the same time as congress stops stuffing their bills with pork
The new rules make getting pork harder and harder. Earmarks aimed at boosting funds for home state projects have virtually been prohibited.

It's not an altogether good prohibition. Spending decisions under the constitution is the exclusive provence of the Congress. The elimination of earmarks leaves the basic decisions exclusively in the hands of the president and the bureaucrats. Congress can say no. It can no longer influence whether an item a member wants can even come up for a decision.

A lot of what is called "pork" are really wise expenditures. A town near me once had what was popularly called the "hour long mile." because only a two lane road crossed the Kennebec, traffic choked up, especially, when the state's largest employer work shifts began and ended.

Senator George Mitchell arranged an earmark, that provided funds for a second bridge and traffic flowed easily again.

Another example was the bill that made possible the purchase of the summit ridge of Saddleback from a ski area. Senator Susan Collins worked out a compromise and got a $4 million earmark to pay for it. Without her "pork" the AT would have had to be relocated, eliminating one of longest above timberline sections on the entire Appalachian Trail.

Weary
2011-08-12, 18:07
Let's see a link?

While you're looking for it, check out Ziplock's recipe section (http://www.ziploc.com/Recipes/Pages/RecipesHome.aspx?recipe=1&mainIngredient=Dairy%20%2F%20Eggs) which includes 3 different omelets, with directions for cooking directly inside a Ziplock bag.

Maybe there's a difference between microwaving inside a bag instead of dunking the bag in boiling water. I doubt it. There will be a difference in product strength using the recommended bag for cooking vs. bags meant for storage but the differences are in design rather than materials.

If a bag is designed for storage then Ziplock can't officially recommend that the product be used for cooking. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some official statement about that. Or if they say polypropylene would soften at that temperature and the bags strength would be below their original design parameter.

But the part about Ziplock saying their bags will release noxious fumes at relatively low temperatures sounds like pure bullshit.
Here are answers from the manufacturer.

Can I boil in Ziploc® Brand bags?
No. Ziploc® Brand bags are not designed to withstand the extreme heat of boiling.

A related message from Megan O. Maginnis, Consumer Specialist for S.C. Johnson & Son, makers of Ziploc baggies. Megan was replying to an inquiry about boiling with baggies.

"Thank you for asking about using Ziploc bags to make omelets. While we appreciate hearing about new and innovative ways to use our products, we must be cautious that these new ideas follow label directions.

"Ziploc bags are not designed or approved to withstand the extreme heat of boiling and therefore, using Ziploc bags to make any recipe that requires the bag to be boiled is not recommended.

"Like all of SC Johnson's products, Ziploc bags cam be used with confidence when label directions are followed. All Ziploc containers and microwaveable Ziploc bags meet safety requirements of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for temperatures associated with defrosting and reheating food in microwave ovens,as well as room, refrigerator, and freezer temperatures.

"Please share these facts with others who may have this misleading information. We also encourage people to go to www.ziploc.com for more information on the proper use of this product."
Ziploc is a registered trademark of the SC Johnson

Skidsteer
2011-08-12, 18:29
The new rules make getting pork harder and harder. Earmarks aimed at boosting funds for home state projects have virtually been prohibited.

It's not an altogether good prohibition. Spending decisions under the constitution is the exclusive provence of the Congress. The elimination of earmarks leaves the basic decisions exclusively in the hands of the president and the bureaucrats. Congress can say no. It can no longer influence whether an item a member wants can even come up for a decision.

A lot of what is called "pork" are really wise expenditures. A town near me once had what was popularly called the "hour long mile." because only a two lane road crossed the Kennebec, traffic choked up, especially, when the state's largest employer work shifts began and ended.

Senator George Mitchell arranged an earmark, that provided funds for a second bridge and traffic flowed easily again.

Another example was the bill that made possible the purchase of the summit ridge of Saddleback from a ski area. Senator Susan Collins worked out a compromise and got a $4 million earmark to pay for it. Without her "pork" the AT would have had to be relocated, eliminating one of longest above timberline sections on the entire Appalachian Trail.

Congress is as likely to stop pork barrel spending, irregardless of so-called rules, as you are to stop discussing politics when you are politely asked not to.


Here are answers from the manufacturer.

Can I boil in Ziploc® Brand bags?
No. Ziploc® Brand bags are not designed to withstand the extreme heat of boiling.

A related message from Megan O. Maginnis, Consumer Specialist for S.C. Johnson & Son, makers of Ziploc baggies. Megan was replying to an inquiry about boiling with baggies.

"Thank you for asking about using Ziploc bags to make omelets. While we appreciate hearing about new and innovative ways to use our products, we must be cautious that these new ideas follow label directions.

"Ziploc bags are not designed or approved to withstand the extreme heat of boiling and therefore, using Ziploc bags to make any recipe that requires the bag to be boiled is not recommended.

"Like all of SC Johnson's products, Ziploc bags cam be used with confidence when label directions are followed. All Ziploc containers and microwaveable Ziploc bags meet safety requirements of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for temperatures associated with defrosting and reheating food in microwave ovens,as well as room, refrigerator, and freezer temperatures.

"Please share these facts with others who may have this misleading information. We also encourage people to go to www.ziploc.com for more information on the proper use of this product."
Ziploc is a registered trademark of the SC Johnson

Hahahahaha! You do realize you're starting a chemistry argument with a chemist. Right?

rcli4
2011-08-12, 18:33
Hahahahaha! You do realize you're starting a chemistry argument with a chemist. Right?

And not just a chemist but one that works with plastics.:beer:

Ray
2011-08-12, 19:06
Wasn't much of a link. So let's try for a source? Was this from years ago before Zip-Lock started making cooking bags or more recent?

And that bit about...


Ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.

Did you just make that part up or what?

Looks to me like Zip Lock says they can't recommend their freezer bags be used for cooking because the bags aren't designed for cooking, which is exactly what I predicted Zip Lock would say. Zip Lock doesn't want to be responsible if the bag breaks and someone's omelet gets ruined. The product isn't labeled for cooking but that doesn't mean it can't be used that way.

There's nothing on a tampon label that says they can be used to stop severe nosebleeds either but I'm not going to finish that thought on this website.

So, anyway, when you find the part where a corporate spokesperson for a major consumer product company says their food storage products release "all kinds of exotic fumes", immediately call the Pope.

Because you will have witnessed a miracle.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 19:33
Here are answers from the manufacturer.

Can I boil in Ziploc® Brand bags?
No. Ziploc® Brand bags are not designed to withstand the extreme heat of boiling.

A related message from Megan O. Maginnis, Consumer Specialist for S.C. Johnson & Son, makers of Ziploc baggies. Megan was replying to an inquiry about boiling with baggies.

"Thank you for asking about using Ziploc bags to make omelets. While we appreciate hearing about new and innovative ways to use our products, we must be cautious that these new ideas follow label directions.

"Ziploc bags are not designed or approved to withstand the extreme heat of boiling and therefore, using Ziploc bags to make any recipe that requires the bag to be boiled is not recommended.

"Like all of SC Johnson's products, Ziploc bags cam be used with confidence when label directions are followed. All Ziploc containers and microwaveable Ziploc bags meet safety requirements of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for temperatures associated with defrosting and reheating food in microwave ovens,as well as room, refrigerator, and freezer temperatures.

"Please share these facts with others who may have this misleading information. We also encourage people to go to www.ziploc.com for more information on the proper use of this product."
Ziploc is a registered trademark of the SC Johnson

Thanks, Weary.........you just officially confirmed what Ray stated.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 19:35
Wasn't much of a link. So let's try for a source? Was this from years ago before Zip-Lock started making cooking bags or more recent?

And that bit about...



Did you just make that part up or what?

Looks to me like Zip Lock says they can't recommend their freezer bags be used for cooking because the bags aren't designed for cooking, which is exactly what I originally said. Zip Lock doesn't want to be responsible if the bag breaks and someone's omelet gets ruined.

When you find the part where a corporate spokesperson for a consumer product company says their food storage products release "all kinds of exotic fumes", call the Pope.

Because you will have witnessed a miracle.

Especially since they stated on their website that their bags wouldn't release any harmful chemicals until they reached 1,500 degrees...........

GGS
2011-08-12, 19:36
Speaking theoretically here... It would seem that a microwave could produce temperatures greater than boiling water itself. A microwave could continue to heat steam molecules inside a plastic container after they have boiled off, theoretically creating cooking temperatures far above 212F. Cooking something in boiling water would never exceed 212F since any steam created would be released away from the vessel before it could be heated further.

I would therefore theorize that any plastic designed for microwave cooking could be used to cook food in boiling water.

Reading Weary's post about Ziploc's response, that could be more of a product liability response. Since Ziploc didn't design it for that purpose, more to the point TEST it for that purpose, it would not have the mountains of data needed to defend itself in court should you decide to sue them because you or one of your family conveniently became mysteriously ill following such a cooking event and chose to blame it on Ziploc's "faulty product".

All theories of course, but those are my thoughts

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 19:38
I wonder if Fancy Feast would recommend the use of their cat food cans to create alcohol stoves..........

Skidsteer
2011-08-12, 19:42
I'll take, "I don't give a shit" for $500, Alex.

Ray
2011-08-12, 19:44
Most places on the AT won't have 212F boiling water either.

Just sayin'.

GGS
2011-08-12, 19:52
Hahahahaha! You do realize you're starting a chemistry argument with a chemist. Right?

You lost me. Are you a chemist who would understand the properties of a Ziploc bag at cooking temperatures? Or were you defending someone else's post who you know to be a chemist with such knowledge?

Not trying to pick a fight, just your post didn't specify whether you agreed or disagreed with either side, so I'm lost

Skidsteer
2011-08-12, 20:35
You lost me. Are you a chemist who would understand the properties of a Ziploc bag at cooking temperatures? Or were you defending someone else's post who you know to be a chemist with such knowledge?

Not trying to pick a fight, just your post didn't specify whether you agreed or disagreed with either side, so I'm lost

I was referring to Ray. He is a chemist. Who works with plastics.

Ray
2011-08-12, 20:43
I was referring to Ray. He is a chemist. Who works with plastics.Chemical engineer, to be picky.

And I'm not advocating anything, I'm only asking Weary to substantiate his claim.


Why? Ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.There's the claim. I call BS and haven't seen anything that would make me change my mind.

Weary
2011-08-12, 21:12
Congress is as likely to stop pork barrel spending, irregardless of so-called rules, as you are to stop discussing politics when you are politely asked not to.



Hahahahaha! You do realize you're starting a chemistry argument with a chemist. Right?
I'm quoting the rules approved by ignorant politicians who don't understand what they are doing -- which is weakening the ability of politicians in fulfilling their constitutional obligations.

Believe two-decade old myths if you want, that's what consitute political reality these days, but I continue to believe that facts count for something. What about you? Are you so committed to nonsense that nothing will change your mind.

I don't give a shit who I'm debating. If the chemist thinks the manufacturer is lying, let it, or he or she, tell us. I've rarely seen a manufacturer opposing uses of their projects, so I suspect that what the posted letter said is legitimate.

Ray
2011-08-12, 21:16
I don't give a shit who I'm debating. If the chemist thinks the manufacturer is lying, let it, or he or she, tell us. I've rarely seen a manufacturer opposing uses of their projects, so I suspect that what the posted letter said is legitimate.What the posted letter said is absolutely nothing like what you said.

I think facts count for something too.

Weary
2011-08-12, 21:30
Most places on the AT won't have 212F boiling water either. Just sayin'.
You're just saying something totally silly, chemist, or not. Everyone who cooks on the trail, eventually boils water at 212 degrees. Maybe not on the high peaks, but once one approaches sea level, water boils at 212 and occasionally higher. Not that it matters much. The manufacturer of ziplocks says their product starts breaking down at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees lower than 212. Everyone achieves that temperature. Even chemists should not allow politics to overpower facts.

I can post a dozen links. But this is not something that manufacturers like to publicize, so most of the links I have discovered, have a few gleanings of facts, and at lot of hysterical stuff, which I don't like to spread around, since I like to keep my posts involved with facts.

Ray
2011-08-12, 22:15
The manufacturer of ziplocks says their product starts breaking down at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees lower than 212. No the manufacturer of Zip Locks didn't. That's a fact. Why do you keep saying otherwise?


Why? Ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.This argument is quite silly. You've offered no substantiation and have had opportunity to retract the statement or correct yourself.

Now show exactly where Zip Lock said that or the fact is that you are a liar.

Weary
2011-08-12, 22:50
No the manufacturer of Zip Locks didn't. That's a fact. Why do you keep saying otherwise?

This argument is quite silly.

Show exactly where Zip Lock said that or the fact is that you are a liar.
Here's one site that I used for my comments. There are others. But as you know reconstructing an internet search is a bit difficult.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/176349-what-are-the-dangers-of-boiling-food-in-plastic-bags/

Weary
2011-08-12, 22:58
Here's one site that I used for my comments. There are others. But as you know reconstructing an internet search is a bit difficult.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/176349-what-are-the-dangers-of-boiling-food-in-plastic-bags/

The source of the 95% quote came from this site:

http://camping.about.com/od/campingrecipes/a/ziplocbaggies.htm

Ray
2011-08-12, 23:03
Here's one site that I used for my comments. There are others. But as you know reconstructing an internet search is a bit difficult.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/176349-what-are-the-dangers-of-boiling-food-in-plastic-bags/

Weary. What part of Zip Lock says do you not understand?!

Is it the Zip Lock part? Or the says part?

I don't care what anybody else says, don't waste my time with more irrelevant links.




NDSU reports that Ziploc brand bags have a softening point of 195 degrees, which means they would melt at boiling point, 212 degrees. T
And I hope that's not what NDSU said because it'd be wrong. A polymer's softening point is completely different and not at all relevant to it's melting point.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:10
Also, the Livewell quote says that boiling would release BPA into the water, even though Ziploc themselves state that no BPA is used in Ziplocs.........

Methinks someone is backtracking on being called out.........

Maybe you could explain Global Warming next.......

Ray
2011-08-12, 23:13
From the site you linked:
By pouring near boiling water (water begins to boil at 212 degrees) into the bag, or putting the bag into the water, the plastic could begin to melt. Might I add that eggs and cheese have fat which gets much hotter than water thus the likelihood of melting the plastic increases.

C'mon, Mr. Reporter. You don't need a chemist to find the fallacy there, do you?

How is the fat in eggs and cheese supposed to get hotter than the water in which they are being cooked? Are they using thermonuclear eggs? Please try to use a fact or two in your answer.

Thanks for the laugh though.

Kanga
2011-08-12, 23:13
or the fact that you're boring us to death instead of bog bridging?

Superman
2011-08-12, 23:13
Also, the Livewell quote says that boiling would release BPA into the water, even though Ziploc themselves state that no BPA is used in Ziplocs.........

Methinks someone is backtracking on being called out.........

Maybe you could explain Global Warming next.......

Oh lord...don't ask him to explain OBama.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:16
I'm just wondering how a product that has no BPA is going to leech BPA........

sailingsoul
2011-08-12, 23:17
Gentlemen behave! Please, try to lighten up a little.
I specifically stated my concern was cooking in boiling water with "freezer" bags. Not any other bags like "Ziploc® Zip 'n Steam® Microwave Cooking Bags". Which I would think are made from specific formulated plastic that is different from freezer bags, they feel different. I would expect that the manufacture is not packaging the same bags in different packaging intended for different specified uses. From all the responses there are those who don't seem to see a problem with it. That's fine for them.
I called Ziplock co. and the customer rep' would not give me an answer but took my information and an hour later I got a call back from another woman. We spoke in depth on my concerns. Her very first question was to inquire if I was with the press or media, which I assured her I was not.
Long story short, She said it was not recommended and specifically said they (freezer bags) melt at 230 F. Let's not split straws both numbers are fairly close and who's to say Sandwich bags are not different that freezer bags. Come on, let's try to stay relevant. Obviously before they "melt" they start to soften and are quite capable of leaching compounds into the contained food. That was my original concern. Surely the bag will make periodic contact with the pot and not just the boiling water and thus be exposed to temps higher than 212 momentarily. It is that possibility and what the impact of this unknown to me but it concerns me. Freezer bags are not made from the same plastic formulation as Steam® Microwave Cooking bags or oven baking bags like those used to cook. One comment equated the two being the same and I see that as problematic and should not be assumed as true. I cannot understand the reasoning that "we've done or do it and haven't died yet, it must be safe" but that could be just me. I appreciate all the thoughts and replies.

Oh! but for the life of me, I am dumbfounded that any politics were raised as I see no connection with the opening post or the topic. "Pork barrel spending", "rules approved by ignorant politicians", what? What do those have to do with boiling omelets in freezer bags? I have no clue. Isn't this a camping forum? SS

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:20
I've yet to see a freezer bag melt, even in the slightest, in a pot of boiling water. Or even soften for that matter.

Weary
2011-08-12, 23:21
No the manufacturer of Zip Locks didn't. That's a fact. Why do you keep saying otherwise?

This argument is quite silly. You've offered no substantiation and have had opportunity to retract the statement or correct yourself.

Now show exactly where Zip Lock said that or the fact is that you are a liar.
Well, there is this direct quote from Ziplock.

**EDIT 2** I sent an e-mail to the Ziploc people asking about using this method to cook. Here is the reply I got this morning:

Mr. Peabody,

Thank you for your email regarding the safety of ZIPLOC® Bags.

Regarding your inquiry, ZIPLOC® Bags cannot be used to boil food. Unfortunately, we do not manufacture a “boilable” bag.

We do not recommend using any ZIPLOC® Bag in boiling water, or to “boil” in the microwave. ZIPLOC® Bags are made from polyethylene plastic with a softening point of approximately 195 degrees Fahrenheit. By pouring near boiling water (water begins to boil at 212 degrees) into the bag, or putting the bag into the water, the plastic could begin to melt.

If you have additional concerns, we recommend you call our Product Safety Department at 1-866-231-5406. They will be happy to address any questions you may have.

Best regards,

Megan

Consumer Relationship Centre

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:24
Well, there is this direct quote from Ziplock.

**EDIT 2** I sent an e-mail to the Ziploc people asking about using this method to cook. Here is the reply I got this morning:

Mr. Peabody,

Thank you for your email regarding the safety of ZIPLOC® Bags.

Regarding your inquiry, ZIPLOC® Bags cannot be used to boil food. Unfortunately, we do not manufacture a “boilable” bag.

We do not recommend using any ZIPLOC® Bag in boiling water, or to “boil” in the microwave. ZIPLOC® Bags are made from polyethylene plastic with a softening point of approximately 195 degrees Fahrenheit. By pouring near boiling water (water begins to boil at 212 degrees) into the bag, or putting the bag into the water, the plastic could begin to melt.

If you have additional concerns, we recommend you call our Product Safety Department at 1-866-231-5406. They will be happy to address any questions you may have.

Best regards,

Megan

Consumer Relationship Centre

Thanks again for confirming what Ray stated, Weary..........

Kanga
2011-08-12, 23:24
Well, there is this direct quote from Ziplock.

**EDIT 2** I sent an e-mail to the Ziploc people asking about using this method to cook. Here is the reply I got this morning:

Mr. Peabody,

Thank you for your email regarding the safety of ZIPLOC® Bags.

Regarding your inquiry, ZIPLOC® Bags cannot be used to boil food. Unfortunately, we do not manufacture a “boilable” bag.

We do not recommend using any ZIPLOC® Bag in boiling water, or to “boil” in the microwave. ZIPLOC® Bags are made from polyethylene plastic with a softening point of approximately 195 degrees Fahrenheit. By pouring near boiling water (water begins to boil at 212 degrees) into the bag, or putting the bag into the water, the plastic could begin to melt.

If you have additional concerns, we recommend you call our Product Safety Department at 1-866-231-5406. They will be happy to address any questions you may have.

Best regards,

Megan

Consumer Relationship Centre

did they tell you how all their bpa's are gonna kill you?

GGS
2011-08-12, 23:25
Yeah that's kind of the problem with the whole "dangerous chemicals leaching into your food" subject. There are all kinds of websites with all kinds of claims. Teflon coated pans is another taboo subject, if the stuff is really as lethal as some websites claim, why is just about every cookware nowadays coated with it?

Kanga
2011-08-12, 23:25
because things don't stick to it.

Kanga
2011-08-12, 23:25
and people are lazy.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:26
And immunization shots cause autism in children.......... :)

Kanga
2011-08-12, 23:27
and sitting too close to your tv will melt your brain and give you cancer.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:28
And don't forget............never, ever, never eat a red M&M

Kanga
2011-08-12, 23:28
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/images/4/2009/12/500x_tin-foil-hat.jpg

Superman
2011-08-12, 23:28
and sitting too close to your tv will melt your brain and give you cancer.

....but a good hug cures all. Just sayin.:angel:

Ray
2011-08-12, 23:30
...Come on, let's try to stay relevant. Obviously before they "melt" they start to soften and are quite capable of leaching compounds into the contained food. [/QUOTE]That's an assumption, it's not obvious.


.It is that possibility and what the impact of this unknown to me but it concerns me. And there's the bottom line. If it concerns you, don't do it. We carry enough around without carrying concerns about how we cook our eggs at camp. So don't use Freezer Bag Cooking and don't worry about it. QED

Weary
2011-08-12, 23:30
From the site you linked:

C'mon, Mr. Reporter. You don't need a chemist to find the fallacy there, do you?

How is the fat in eggs and cheese supposed to get hotter than the water in which they are being cooked? Are they using thermonuclear eggs? Please try to use a fact or two in your answer.

Thanks for the laugh though.
That's why I tried not to post the sites I quoted. As I said before most were from folks who hate all chemicals. I originally quoted only things that Ziplock said, or were alleged to have said.

The fat in eggs and cheese might be a problem in a microwave, but certainly not in boiling water, which is why I didn't quote the entire piece in my original post.

Kanga
2011-08-12, 23:31
stop. talking.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:38
Not to mention, even if the bag did contain BPA, which it doesn't, and it did leech into the food, which it can't because it isn't there, the biggest side effect of BPA is obesity, which even then is classified as "it may occur", not "it will occur".

Second, is sterility which "may occur" and not "will occur", and is more probable of occuring in women than men...........and I ain't planning on having any more children anyway.

Skidsteer
2011-08-12, 23:39
I've been freezer bag cooking for ten years and all my friends on this site will confirm that I am completely normal, healthy, and well-adjusted.

OK. Y'all STFU. I know stuff about you too.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-12, 23:40
Define "normal"

Weary
2011-08-12, 23:47
or the fact that you're boring us to death instead of bog bridging?
Blame Ray. He insisted on the links. And persisted in calling me a liar if I didn't post them. I'm not really a liar -- well not very often, anyway. I'm just an old guy with a thing about getting my feet wet, so I build bog bridges on my favorite trails.

When I get real old I may have to get a pair of waterproof boots. But I'm holding off on that purchase. I don't want to waste all the chemicals used to make waterproof boots until I'm sure I'm not going to die soon from building all those bog bridges. Do you suppose that waterproof boots can be boiled. If I get a pair, I'll have to check.

I also find this exchange boring, but not quite as boring as the hints about ancient contacts with prostitutes. There was some confusion there also, as I remember. Someone seemed to think as I recall that a 60 cent per client prostitute had to be called on the phone first, whatever. It's too boring to relate all the details.

Superman
2011-08-12, 23:52
Blame Ray. He insisted on the links. And persisted in calling me a liar if I didn't post them. I'm not really a liar -- well not very often, anyway. I'm just an old guy with a thing about getting my feet wet, so I build bog bridges on my favorite trails.

When I get real old I may have to get a pair of waterproof boots. But I'm holding off on that purchase. I don't want to waste all the chemicals used to make waterproof boots until I'm sure I'm not going to die soon from building all those bog bridges. Do you suppose that waterproof boots can be boiled. If I get a pair, I'll have to check.

I also find this exchange boring, but not quite as boring as the hints about ancient contacts with prostitutes. There was some confusion there also, as I remember. Someone seemed to think as I recall that a 60 cent per client prostitute had to be called on the phone first, whatever. It's too boring to relate all the details.

You do play fast and lose with your facts. Kinda seems like you're slipping over the edge.

Ray
2011-08-12, 23:56
Blame Ray. He insisted on the links. And persisted in calling me a liar if I didn't post them. Rest. If you coulda you already woulda.

Lugnut
2011-08-12, 23:59
I'll give Weary that he doesn't take his ball and go home; he stays in the game. (even when he is losing) :beer:

Skidsteer
2011-08-13, 00:00
Blame Ray. He insisted on the links. And persisted in calling me a liar if I didn't post them. I'm not really a liar -- well not very often, anyway. I'm just an old guy with a thing about getting my feet wet, so I build bog bridges on my favorite trails.

When I get real old I may have to get a pair of waterproof boots. But I'm holding off on that purchase. I don't want to waste all the chemicals used to make waterproof boots until I'm sure I'm not going to die soon from building all those bog bridges. Do you suppose that waterproof boots can be boiled. If I get a pair, I'll have to check.

I also find this exchange boring, but not quite as boring as the hints about ancient contacts with prostitutes. There was some confusion there also, as I remember. Someone seemed to think as I recall that a 60 cent per client prostitute had to be called on the phone first, whatever. It's too boring to relate all the details.

OK so you get in a chemistry debate with Ray even after I give you a heads-up warning. And you pick a fight with Superman about prostitutes.

What's next? Discussion of the finer points of strip searches with Sheepdog?

Weary
2011-08-13, 00:04
Thanks again for confirming what Ray stated, Weary..........
Well the direct quote from the Ziplock people mentioned "softening." The people I quoted said "melting."

Now that you mention it, I should have caught the distinction. If Ray had just mentioned the distinction, instead of calling me a liar, we could have made room for even more boring threads.

The fact remains that Ziplock did not recommend boiling omelets in any of there products that were on the market when this issue arose some months ago. I don't know about more recent products

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 00:07
And for all those worried about chemicals being leeched into your food during cooking.....

Stop using aluminum pots and pans and aluminum foil..........it's been proven to cause Alzheimer's.

Stop using cast iron, as it causes problems with hemochromatosis and can cause fats in the food to go rancid.

Stop using Teflon pans, as they produce toxic fumes when heated, cause birth defects and several other diseases. And while you're at it, throw out all the teflon in your carpet, household cleaners, lubricants and one of 100,000 other household items.

Stop using cooper pans, as they produce vomiting, hematemesis, hypotension, melena, coma, jaundice, gastrointestinal distress, hemolytic anemia, liver and kidney damage and death.

Stop using Enameled cookware, as it too has been linked to Alzheimer's.

Stop using Glassware, as it can leech lead and cadium into the food, which can cause headache, abdominal pain, memory loss, kidney failure, male reproductive problems, and weakness, pain, or tingling in the extremities. It can also cause abdominal pain, vomiting, weight loss, constipation, anemia, kidney failure, irritability, lethargy, learning disabilities, and behavior problems. You may also experience hearing loss, delayed growth, drowsiness, clumsiness, or loss of speech skills. It may also cause depression, loss of appetite, intermittent abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation, muscle pain, malaise, fatigue, decreased libido, and problems with sleep.

Which leaves us with................eating food raw or cooking it on a stick.

Ray
2011-08-13, 00:10
.... Which leaves us with................eating food raw or cooking it on a stick.What kind of stick?

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 00:13
good point.

Bamboo has traces of cyanide.

Ray
2011-08-13, 00:17
Well the direct quote from the Ziplock people mentioned "softening." The people I quoted said "melting."

Now that you mention it, I should have caught the distinction. If Ray had just mentioned the distinction, instead of calling me a liar, we could have made room for even more boring threads.
Sweet Jesus, give me patience. It's not about softening or melting. This must be the 3rd time I've quoted this:

Ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.Do you see the problems now?

How many of the words after "Ziplock says" did Ziplock say? Give an answer using words rather than interpretive dance, for a change.

Superman
2011-08-13, 00:17
good point.

Bamboo has traces of cyanide.

Oh lord....we usually use birch. Is that one safe?:afraid:

Weary
2011-08-13, 00:20
And for all those worried about chemicals being leeched into your food during cooking.....

Stop using aluminum pots and pans and aluminum foil..........it's been proven to cause Alzheimer's.

Stop using cast iron, as it causes problems with hemochromatosis and can cause fats in the food to go rancid.

Stop using Teflon pans, as they produce toxic fumes when heated, cause birth defects and several other diseases. And while you're at it, throw out all the teflon in your carpet, household cleaners, lubricants and one of 100,000 other household items.

Stop using cooper pans, as they produce vomiting, hematemesis, hypotension, melena, coma, jaundice, gastrointestinal distress, hemolytic anemia, liver and kidney damage and death.

Stop using Enameled cookware, as it too has been linked to Alzheimer's.

Stop using Glassware, as it can leech lead and cadium into the food, which can cause headache, abdominal pain, memory loss, kidney failure, male reproductive problems, and weakness, pain, or tingling in the extremities. It can also cause abdominal pain, vomiting, weight loss, constipation, anemia, kidney failure, irritability, lethargy, learning disabilities, and behavior problems. You may also experience hearing loss, delayed growth, drowsiness, clumsiness, or loss of speech skills. It may also cause depression, loss of appetite, intermittent abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation, muscle pain, malaise, fatigue, decreased libido, and problems with sleep.

Which leaves us with................eating food raw or cooking it on a stick.
Ah Monkey. You'll never learn to read. You need to recognize that because some people believe something, or speculate about something, dosen't mean it's been "proven." Many things are claimed in this world. Most are just guesses or blatant nonsense.

BTW, None of the things you've mentioned have been proven. Most are only believed by nuts.

How your "joke" relates to boiling food in ziplock bags is beyond me. In the case of using ziplocks as cooking utensils, the manufacturer says it shouldn't be done. I'm willing to take them at their word. I don't use plastic "pots" anyway. I cook on a zip stove on the trail and often on a wood stove at home.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 00:24
Actually, birch has been used for centuries to cure diarrhea, aid skin conditions, sooth sore muscles, repel insects, aid in hair growth and increase urination.

It can be harmful however if you are allergic to aspirin and aspirin products, because it contains chemicals similar to aspirin.

So it could be lethal to someone like my son.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 00:25
Ah Monkey. You'll never learn to read. You need to recognize that because some people believe something, or speculate about something, dosen't mean it's been "proven." Many things are claimed in this world. Most are just guesses or blatant nonsense.

BTW, None of the things you've mentioned have been proven. Most are only believed by nuts.

How your "joke" relates to boiling food in ziplock bags is beyond me. In the case of using ziplocks as cooking utensils, the manufacturer says it shouldn't be done. I'm willing to take them at their word. I don't use plastic "pots" anyway. I cook on a zip stove on the trail and often on a wood stove at home.

Uuuuhhh.....that wasn't a joke, Weary.

All of those statements are 100% true.

Superman
2011-08-13, 00:30
Actually, birch has been used for centuries to cure diarrhea, aid skin conditions, sooth sore muscles, repel insects, aid in hair growth and increase urination.

It can be harmful however if you are allergic to aspirin and aspirin products, because it contains chemicals similar to aspirin.

So it could be lethal to someone like my son.

OK, when your son visits I won't give him a birch stick for his hotdogs.:beer:

GGS
2011-08-13, 01:05
All this talk, I had to experiment. I've never tried freezer bag cooking...

I didn't have any Ziploc freezer bags. I used a Meijer (store brand) quart storage zip top bag, which I will note is heavier than an average sandwich bag but not quite as heavy as the Ziploc freezer bags.

I did two tests, cooking 3 eggs each test, using the *same* bag for both tests.

I brought a pot of water to a rolling boil, introduced the bag containing eggs, then reduced heat to a light simmer

The key question is... Did the bag soften or melt? No. It did become more pliable when immersed in boiling water, kind of the same way that a garden hose is more flexible in warm weather than in cold, but it never softened or melted. I even took a couple pairs of tongs and tried to stretch the bag while immersed in boiling water. No signs of softening of the plastic.

The first test I only boiled the eggs for about 3 minutes. They popped right out of the bag onto a plate. Turns out they weren't completely cooked, so I stuck the plate in a microwave to finish cooking them. Second test I boiled 3 more eggs for about 5 minutes, and they still weren't completely cooked. So I'll have to experiment with the cooking time.

Eggs tasted great! No taste of anything leaching into them.

The bag despite being used twice was in great shape, no signs of any heat deformation at all. This bag being a cheaper store brand bag held up well. I should imagine a Ziploc brand freezer bag would do great.

So, believe what you want but I'm sold! As a person who loves eggs in the morning I can think of a lot of camping scenarios where this would work great. One pot and some plastic bags is all I would need! I agree this would not be the most efficient method of cooking with an alcohol stove, but if you have ample fuel resources (wood stove, car camping, etc) this would work great. Also easy to produce multiple meals from a single pot of boiling water.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 01:13
Cook the eggs 10 to 15 minutes.

Also, squeeze the omelet slightly.....if the center is still wet, it will goosh out. Put it back in the boiling water until nothing gooshes out.

jhick
2011-08-13, 11:41
This is some great reading....
:)

hobocentral.... where else can u get trail info, boobies, drunken banter and science!

dixicritter
2011-08-13, 11:49
check your background color.

Weary
2011-08-13, 12:04
...I brought a pot of water to a rolling boil, introduced the bag containing eggs, then reduced heat to a light simmer

The key question is... Did the bag soften or melt? No. It did become more pliable when immersed in boiling water, kind of the same way that a garden hose is more flexible in warm weather than in cold, but it never softened or melted. I even took a couple pairs of tongs and tried to stretch the bag while immersed in boiling water. No signs of softening of the plastic.

The first test I only boiled the eggs for about 3 minutes. They popped right out of the bag onto a plate. Turns out they weren't completely cooked, so I stuck the plate in a microwave to finish cooking them. Second test I boiled 3 more eggs for about 5 minutes, and they still weren't completely cooked. So I'll have to experiment with the cooking time.

Eggs tasted great! No taste of anything leaching into them.

The bag despite being used twice was in great shape, no signs of any heat deformation at all. This bag being a cheaper store brand bag held up well. I should imagine a Ziploc brand freezer bag would do great....
Well, you've done the definitive test. I guess Ziplock was lying when it said there bags should not be used for cooking in boiling water.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 12:42
Where did they say that noxious fumes would be released? As you stated.

Weary
2011-08-13, 15:03
Where did they say that noxious fumes would be released? As you stated.
They didn't. They did say the poly in the bags would soften and possibly melt. I've watched poly melt many times as I've burned trash left by hikers on the trails and canoe routes.

Trail guides commonly warn against burning poly because of the noxious fumes it emits. I once was chastied by a hiker from Australia when I was burning poly left behind by winter hikers in GSMNP. I told him I would stop if he would carry out half the trash, while I took the rest. He walked away in disgust.

Rosaleen
2011-08-13, 15:26
I rather like the one below about glassware. It makes me want to leave some Pyrex cookware sitting out, as if it were in constant use. I would have the perfect excuse for memory loss, irritability, etc. The "M" one is getting rather worn out. <g>

Rosaleen


[QUOTE=MonkeyBoy;248419]And for all those worried about chemicals being leeched into your food during cooking.....


Stop using Glassware, as it can leech lead and cadium into the food, which can cause headache, abdominal pain, memory loss, kidney failure, male reproductive problems, and weakness, pain, or tingling in the extremities. It can also cause abdominal pain, vomiting, weight loss, constipation, anemia, kidney failure, irritability, lethargy, learning disabilities, and behavior problems. You may also experience hearing loss, delayed growth, drowsiness, clumsiness, or loss of speech skills. It may also cause depression, loss of appetite, intermittent abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation, muscle pain, malaise, fatigue, decreased libido, and problems with sleep.

QUOTE]

Weary
2011-08-13, 15:33
Uuuuhhh.....that wasn't a joke, Weary.

All of those statements are 100% true.
Not really. I decided you must be joking when you opened with: "Stop using aluminum pots and pans and aluminum foil..........it's been proven to cause Alzheimer's."

No one knows what causes the disease, but the evidence about using aluminum is terribly slim.

rcli4
2011-08-13, 20:53
Here are the facts:

(1) Ziploc ain't said and ain't gonna say bad shit leeches out of their bags
(2) Just because a lady is called a call girl don't mean she has a phone
(3) You just don't spit into the wind
(4) you don't step on superman's cape or question his knowledge of prostitutes in Nam
(5) and you don't argue chemistry with Ray.

Clyde

Hooch
2011-08-13, 21:33
. . . .I wouldn't recommend the practice for kids. . . .


You a fuckin' pediatrician now? :albertein

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 21:57
They didn't. They did say the poly in the bags would soften and possibly melt. I've watched poly melt many times as I've burned trash left by hikers on the trails and canoe routes.

Trail guides commonly warn against burning poly because of the noxious fumes it emits. I once was chastied by a hiker from Australia when I was burning poly left behind by winter hikers in GSMNP. I told him I would stop if he would carry out half the trash, while I took the rest. He walked away in disgust.

So you were wrong to make the statement that Ziploc stated it released toxic fumes when boiling............

Thanks for clarifying that.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-13, 22:03
Not really. I decided you must be joking when you opened with: "Stop using aluminum pots and pans and aluminum foil..........it's been proven to cause Alzheimer's."

No one knows what causes the disease, but the evidence about using aluminum is terribly slim.

Wrong again, Weary.

Many studies have been done in the connection to Alzheimer's and aluminum.

Every doctor I have spoken with, which is the majority of my customer base, have made statements that aluminum usage in the 60's, 70's and 80's has led to the increase in Alzheimer's.

Studies have also found that the majority of post-mortem autopsies have found high concentrations of aluminum in the brain of alzheimer's patients. Significantly higher than those of non-alzheimer's patients.

Just because you don't believe it or haven't heard of it, it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Kinda like making statements that Ziploc says their bags release toxic fumes in boiling water.

Hooch
2011-08-13, 22:17
. . . .majority of post-mortem autopsies. . . .All autopsies are post-mortem. :albertein:ahhhhh::aetsch:

rcli4
2011-08-13, 22:34
I seen a documentary that said every person with Alzheimer's that was tested had Lyme disease. they thought it may just be dementia caused by Lyme going untreated.

Clyde

Skidsteer
2011-08-13, 22:35
All autopsies are post-mortem. :albertein:ahhhhh::aetsch:

Nuh-uh.

Just ask Amy Winehouse.

GGS
2011-08-14, 01:57
Well, you've done the definitive test. I guess Ziplock was lying when it said there bags should not be used for cooking in boiling water.

I still suspect that's from a product liability standpoint. Since Ziploc hasn't tested those bags for that use they are not about to say it's OK to cook with them. If they endorsed that form of cooking and ANYONE made a claim they would be unable to defend it without volumes of testing data.

You're welcome to take the warning as you see it. I'm not saying you shouldn't. For my part I am not concerned.

Weary
2011-08-14, 12:13
So you were wrong to make the statement that Ziploc stated it released toxic fumes when boiling............

Thanks for clarifying that.
Well, for starters, I never said ziplock released toxic fumes. I said maybe they did. I have no idea why ziplock said its bags shouldn't be used as a container for boiling foods, but I assume the company has a reason.

After reading what the manufacturer says, I wouldn't serve my 7-year-old grandson eggs boiled in a ziplock bag. Should I see you doing so I'd believe you were being irresponsible.

Weary
2011-08-14, 12:42
Let's see a link?

While you're looking for it, check out Ziplock's recipe section (http://www.ziploc.com/Recipes/Pages/RecipesHome.aspx?recipe=1&mainIngredient=Dairy%20%2F%20Eggs) which includes 3 different omelets, with directions for cooking directly inside a Ziplock bag.
.....
All the recipes in the site Ray recommends uses a relatively new Zip Lock product, that the company calls ZipnSteam, which was manufactured for use in microwave ovens. I've never seen them at my local supermarket, but they can be bought on the internet for around 50 cents, sometimes more, each.

The Ziplock site doesn't mention using them in boiling water. Since they have vents that allow steam to escape, maybe dunking them in water wouldn't work.

The large size has already been discontinued, the company says, blaming a lack of demand. Medium ZipnSteam bags seem to be still available.

Weary
2011-08-14, 12:55
Wrong again, Weary.

Many studies have been done in the connection to Alzheimer's and aluminum.

Every doctor I have spoken with, which is the majority of my customer base, have made statements that aluminum usage in the 60's, 70's and 80's has led to the increase in Alzheimer's.

Studies have also found that the majority of post-mortem autopsies have found high concentrations of aluminum in the brain of alzheimer's patients. Significantly higher than those of non-alzheimer's patients.

Just because you don't believe it or haven't heard of it, it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Kinda like making statements that Ziploc says their bags release toxic fumes in boiling water.
Here's what the Alzheimer's Society says:

"Aluminium and Alzheimer's disease
A number of environmental factors have been put forward as possible contributory causes of Alzheimer's disease in some people. Among these is aluminium. There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's disease, but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems increasingly unlikely. This factsheet looks at the circumstantial evidence and current medical and scientific views."

Ray
2011-08-14, 16:48
well, for starters, i never said ziplock released toxic fumes. i said maybe they did. I have no idea why ziplock said its bags shouldn't be used as a container for boiling foods, but i assume the company has a reason.

After reading what the manufacturer says, i wouldn't serve my 7-year-old grandson eggs boiled in a ziplock bag. Should i see you doing so i'd believe you were being irresponsible.


i suspect cooking an occasional omelet in a freezer ziplock dunked in boiling water is pretty harmless, especially for old people who will die soon anyway.

But i wouldn't recommend the practice for kids. The company that makes ziplocks says it appreciates that people are finding innovative uses for its product, but warns against placing bags with food inside in boiling water.

Why? ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.

the last i heard, the fda has never tested the use of ziplocks as a cooking utensil -- probably because it hadn't heard about scoutmasters urging their kids to cook in the bags.

Maybe the agency will be abolished soon and we won't have to worry about its recomendations anymore.



Where did you hide the "maybe"?!

Why do you keep trying to bullshit us? Are you nothing more than a troll?

And, to be factual, you never said it. You said Ziplock said it.

So where did Ziplock say that again?

SGT Rock
2011-08-14, 17:25
Good grief.

SGT Rock
2011-08-14, 17:31
Studies have also found that the majority of post-mortem autopsies have found high concentrations of aluminum in the brain of alzheimer's patients. Significantly higher than those of non-alzheimer's patients.

That stuff is very old and has had numerous studies since then that have found that most of the evidence was purely circumstantial. Here is an excellent source of information that cites the initial study and many after that which shows that old theory is as antiquated as the one that thought that parasites caused cancer:

http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99

In case you didn't know, someone actually got a Nobel Prize for proving cancer was caused by parasites many many years ago.

SGT Rock
2011-08-14, 17:42
I just read what ZipLoc says. It doesn't recommend boiling water in their bags, but it does recommend re-heating food in their bags. There is a difference between boiling water in the bag and putting a bag in hot water.

Also, as one that has done hundreds of tests of water boiling on a camp stoves, even when you get a "rolling boil" as described on various stove reviews, most of the water isn't going to be 212F, only at the bottom where the flame is heating the pot. As soon as you take the pot off the stove the temp starts dropping. So it is safe to assume that most "boiling water" in camp is below the boiling point. In fact, I would say 190-200F is about average most of the time. BTW 190F is where most coffee pots operate.

Ray
2011-08-14, 18:42
Good grief.Sorry. But I'm stupid enough to take a week vacation to stay home in mid August in Georgia to rebuild an outdoor deck.

That's pretty stupid. On several levels.

So if he can't slide something past me ....

sheepdog
2011-08-14, 19:27
Well, for starters, I never said ziplock released toxic fumes. I said maybe they did. I have no idea why ziplock said its bags shouldn't be used as a container for boiling foods, but I assume the company has a reason.

After reading what the manufacturer says, I wouldn't serve my 7-year-old grandson eggs boiled in a ziplock bag. Should I see you doing so I'd believe you were being irresponsible.

I think worrying about minor stuff is worse for you than any zip lock bag cooking.

Kanga
2011-08-14, 19:42
I just read what ZipLoc says. It doesn't recommend boiling water in their bags, but it does recommend re-heating food in their bags. There is a difference between boiling water in the bag and putting a bag in hot water.

Also, as one that has done hundreds of tests of water boiling on a camp stoves, even when you get a "rolling boil" as described on various stove reviews, most of the water isn't going to be 212F, only at the bottom where the flame is heating the pot. As soon as you take the pot off the stove the temp starts dropping. So it is safe to assume that most "boiling water" in camp is below the boiling point. In fact, I would say 190-200F is about average most of the time. BTW 190F is where most coffee pots operate.

so, you're saying my coffee is full of toxic chemicals? shit.

SGT Rock
2011-08-14, 20:10
Sorry. But I'm stupid enough to take a week vacation to stay home in mid August in Georgia to rebuild an outdoor deck.

That's pretty stupid. On several levels.

So if he can't slide something past me ....

My good grief was due to the fact that this could possibly be so hot button of an issue. Nothing to do with you personally Ray.:beer:

SGT Rock
2011-08-14, 20:11
so, you're saying my coffee is full of toxic chemicals? shit.

No, saying if coffee is hot enough for you for food temperature, then about 190F is really all you need to heat water to for camp cooking.

I don't know about you guys, but when I get fresh coffee it usually has to cool off before I can drink it. :coffee:

Weary
2011-08-14, 20:22
[b]Where did you hide the maybe

Why do you keep trying to bullshit us? Are you nothing more than a troll?

And, to be factual, you never said it. You said Ziplock said it.

So where did Ziplock say that again?
Well, I recognize that not all engineers are proficient in English. But the sentence that mentioned Sc. Johnson's comments was my humble effort to translate their comments. The next sentence was mine alone.

That next sentence, which was based on my deficient engineering knowledge, guessed that a softening of their product probably released some exotic fumes. I then speculated that some of those fumes "might be toxic" or something like that.

Whether I used "maybe" or "might" doesn't change the meaning, or at least not the meaning I intended.

I don't know much chemistry. My last formal education in the subject occured during my junior year in high school, around 70 years ago. But I do recognize that poly is made up of strings of hydrogen and, I think, carbon molecules, which are normally pretty harmless. That's why I discarded all those I had read over the decades, that questioned the use of PE, and said "might," not would.

Weary
2011-08-14, 20:28
No, saying if coffee is hot enough for you for food temperature, then about 190F is really all you need to heat water to for camp cooking.

I don't know about you guys, but when I get fresh coffee it usually has to cool off before I can drink it. :coffee:
Me too. I usually add a bit of water if I'm frantic for caffeine. Otherwise, I just let the coffee cool.

BTW 195 degrees softens Ziplock bags. 195 degrees makes the best coffee. So you're safe.

Ray
2011-08-14, 20:28
My good grief was due to the fact that this could possibly be so hot button of an issue. Nothing to do with you personally Ray.:beer:Noted. We all have our own set of buttons.

Somebody pushed one of mine then started spinning faster than the Tasmanian Devil (http://tasmaniandevilpictures.com/wp-content/gallery/cartoon-devil/ctd06.jpg) that he didn't say what he said he said.

But somebody also meant every word of what he didn't say. And that pushes a whole 'nother set of buttons.

Ray
2011-08-14, 20:36
Well, I recognize that not all engineers are proficient in English. But the sentence that mentioned Sc. Johnson's comments was my humble effort to translate their comments. The next sentence was mine alone.

That next sentence, which was based on my deficient engineering knowledge, guessed that a softening of their product probably released some exotic fumes. I then speculated that some of those fumes "might be toxic" or something like that. Some English deficient engineers might expect a retired reporter to be able to accurately report what SC Johnson said and then be able to clearly separate that retired reporter's speculations from the Corporation's statement.

Some English deficient engineers obviously have expectations of retired reporters that are higher than those retired reporters deserve.

Do you enjoy the Rocks'n'Roots style 3rd person impersonation?

Superman
2011-08-14, 20:41
It has been a strange thread to follow. It made me want to go back to Vietnam.:angel:

Skidsteer
2011-08-14, 20:45
I don't know much chemistry

See, that's the type of self-evaluation that needs to occur before you hit the submit button.

rcli4
2011-08-14, 20:51
Some English deficient engineers might expect a retired reporter to be able to accurately report what SC Johnson said and then be able to separate that retired reporter's speculations from the Corporation's statement.

Some English deficient engineers obviously expect way too much from retired reporters.

So why the Rocks'n'Roots style 3rd person impersonation?

whatever happened to R-n-R? He was kind of an intelligent Rockhound...

Clyde

Ray
2011-08-14, 20:54
whatever happened to R-n-R? He was kind of an intelligent Rockhound...ClydeSomeone heard an internet bulletin board contributor by that name was old and moved to Florida.

Everyone knows what happens next.

Lugnut
2011-08-14, 20:56
whatever happened to R-n-R? He was kind of an intelligent Rockhound...

Clyde

I think him and Wingfoot got married. They were sure attached at the hip (or somewhere). He was a complete dipstick. :albertein

Ray
2011-08-14, 21:08
.... But the part about Ziplock saying their bags will release noxious fumes at relatively low temperatures sounds like pure bullshit.


Well, I recognize that not all engineers are proficient in English. But the sentence that mentioned Sc. Johnson's comments was my humble effort to translate their comments. The next sentence was mine alone.
For the record: Answered.

Finally. Not Weary's fault though. He was probably confused by my lack of English proficiency.

Also for the record: I accept Weary's admission that his answer was pure bullshit.

That is the end of this discussion for me.

... or ...

Should the last sentence be written as ...

That would be the end of this discussion for me.

All English deficient engineers need to know.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-14, 22:22
Well, for starters, I never said ziplock released toxic fumes. I said maybe they did. I have no idea why ziplock said its bags shouldn't be used as a container for boiling foods, but I assume the company has a reason.

After reading what the manufacturer says, I wouldn't serve my 7-year-old grandson eggs boiled in a ziplock bag. Should I see you doing so I'd believe you were being irresponsible.


I suspect cooking an occasional omelet in a freezer ziplock dunked in boiling water is pretty harmless, especially for old people who will die soon anyway.

But I wouldn't recommend the practice for kids. The company that makes ziplocks says it appreciates that people are finding innovative uses for its product, but warns against placing bags with food inside in boiling water.

Why? Ziplock says their freezer bags start to disintergrate at 195 degrees, which is 17 degrees cooler than the boiling point of water. Anything hotter than that releases all kinds of exotic fumes, some of which might be harmful.
The last I heard, the FDA has never tested the use of ziplocks as a cooking utensil -- probably because it hadn't heard about scoutmasters urging their kids to cook in the bags.

Maybe the agency will be abolished soon and we won't have to worry about its recomendations anymore.

Uh.....yeah...........yeah, you did.

Ray
2011-08-14, 22:31
Uh.....yeah...........yeah, you did.Are you an engineer?

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-14, 22:36
Here's what the Alzheimer's Society says:

"Aluminium and Alzheimer's disease
A number of environmental factors have been put forward as possible contributory causes of Alzheimer's disease in some people. Among these is aluminium. There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's disease, but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems increasingly unlikely. This factsheet looks at the circumstantial evidence and current medical and scientific views."

Here, one doctor agrees with you.........

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336905/?page=1


But then the Director of the Centre for Research of Neurodegenerative Disease contradicts said doctor with actual facts, and lists a slew of reports that back his decision.....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336906/?page=2

And the more they look into it, Weary, the more it seems to be. More and more, I am reading articles stating just that, from Discover magazine, Time, Popular Science, ad naseum..........

It seems that aluminum may not be the cause, but that the absorption of aluminum by certain individuals is.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-14, 22:42
Are you an engineer?

Does Network Engineer count?

Nearly Normal
2011-08-14, 23:12
Define "normal"

Before or after the summer of 1971?

Weary
2011-08-15, 01:05
Here, one doctor agrees with you.........

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336905/?page=1


But then the Director of the Centre for Research of Neurodegenerative Disease contradicts said doctor with actual facts, and lists a slew of reports that back his decision.....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336906/?page=2

And the more they look into it, Weary, the more it seems to be. More and more, I am reading articles stating just that, from Discover magazine, Time, Popular Science, ad naseum..........

It seems that aluminum may not be the cause, but that the absorption of aluminum by certain individuals is.
I'm sorry Monkey, 17 year old medical journal articles about one of the most heavily researched medical issues today, aren't very persuasive.

I used to worry about cooking with aluminum. I still do for that matter. But not with the fervor I felt when the issue of aluminum first came up a couple of decades or so ago, linking alzheimers with aluminum pots.

The more researchers look into the connection, the more they doubt that pots have anything to do with the disease.

Lugnut
2011-08-15, 01:09
Before or after the summer of 1971?

What happened in '71?

Nearly Normal
2011-08-15, 01:47
What happened in '71?

Big band radio.

Big Mac
2011-08-15, 08:04
What happened in '71?


Big band radio.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha . . .

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-15, 09:34
I thought it was the Bee Gees.........

enviro
2011-08-15, 10:12
The new rules make getting pork harder and harder. Earmarks aimed at boosting funds for home state projects have virtually been prohibited.

It's not an altogether good prohibition. Spending decisions under the constitution is the exclusive provence of the Congress. The elimination of earmarks leaves the basic decisions exclusively in the hands of the president and the bureaucrats. Congress can say no. It can no longer influence whether an item a member wants can even come up for a decision.

A lot of what is called "pork" are really wise expenditures. A town near me once had what was popularly called the "hour long mile." because only a two lane road crossed the Kennebec, traffic choked up, especially, when the state's largest employer work shifts began and ended.

Senator George Mitchell arranged an earmark, that provided funds for a second bridge and traffic flowed easily again.

Another example was the bill that made possible the purchase of the summit ridge of Saddleback from a ski area. Senator Susan Collins worked out a compromise and got a $4 million earmark to pay for it. Without her "pork" the AT would have had to be relocated, eliminating one of longest above timberline sections on the entire Appalachian Trail.

I need to stock up then cause I really like bacon.

Weary
2011-08-15, 11:47
What happened in '71?
I've searched my mind.:argh: This is all I could come up with. I may have missed a few things:

1971
January
• January 2
o Ibrox disaster: A stairway crush at the Rangers vs. Celtic football match in Glasgow, Scotland kills 66.
• January 12 – The landmark television sitcom All In The Family, starring Carroll O'Connor as Archie Bunker, debuts on CBS.
• January 15 – The Aswan High Dam officially opens in Egypt.
In Los Angeles, Charles Manson and three female "Family" members are found guilty of the 1969 Tate-LaBianca murders.
• January 31 – Apollo program: Apollo 14 (carrying astronauts Alan Shepard, Stuart Roosa, and Edgar Mitchell) lifts off on the third successful lunar landing mission.
February
• February 4 – Rolls-Royce goes bankrupt and is nationalised.
• February 5 – Apollo 14 lands on the Moon.
Satchel Paige becomes the first Negro League player to become voted into the Baseball Hall of Fame from the Negro League. Jackie Robinson was inducted July 23, 1962.


February 7: Earthquake kills 31 in Tuscania, Italy.
March
• March 1
A bomb explodes in the men's room at the United States Capitol. Weather Underground Organization claims responsibility.
• March 8 – Boxer Joe Frazier defeats Muhammad Ali at Madison Square Garden.
• March 12–March 13 – The Allman Brothers Band plays their famous concert at the Fillmore East.
• March 28 – The Ed Sullivan Show airs its final episode.
• March 29
U.S. Army Lieutenant William Calley is found guilty of 22 murders in the My Lai massacre and sentenced to life in prison (later pardoned).
• April 1 – The United Kingdom lifts all restrictions on gold ownership.
• April 5
Mount Etna erupts in Sicily.
• April 9 – Charles Manson is sentenced to death; in 1972, the sentence for all California Death Row inmates is commuted to life imprisonment.
Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education: The Supreme Court of the United States rules unanimously that busing of students may be ordered to achieve racial desegregation.
• April 24
Five hundred thousand people in Washington, DC and 125,000 in San Francisco march in protest against the Vietnam War.
A tsunami 85 m high rises over the Ryukyu Islands in Japan. It throws a 750-ton block of coral 2.5 km inland.
• April 30 – The Milwaukee Bucks win the NBA World Championship, sweeping the Baltimore Bullets in four straight games.
May
• May
Amtrak begins inter-city rail passenger service in the United States.
The Harris Poll claims that 60% of Americans are against the Vietnam War.
Mariner 8 fails to launch.
June
• June 13
The New York Times begins to publish the Pentagon Papers. [1].
President Richard Nixon declares the U.S. War on Drugs.
• June 18 – Southwest Airlines, a low cost carrier, begins its first flights between Dallas, Houston, And San Antonio.
New York Times Co. v. United States: The U.S. Supreme Court rules that the Pentagon Papers may be published, rejecting government injunctions as unconstitutional prior restraint.
July
• July 5 – Right to vote: The 26th Amendment to the United States Constitution, formally certified by President Richard Nixon, lowers the voting age from 21 to 18.
• July 10 – Gloria Steinem holds her Address to the Women of America speech.
• July 19 – The South Tower of the World Trade Center is topped out at 1,362 feet, making it the second tallest building in the world.
• July 26 – Apollo 15 (carrying astronauts David Scott, Alfred Worden, and James Irwin) is launched.
August
President Richard Nixon announces that the United States will no longer convert dollars to gold at a fixed value, effectively ending the Bretton Woods system. He also imposes a 90-day freeze on wages, prices and rents.
• August 18
September
• September 8 – In Washington, DC, the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts is inaugurated, with the opening feature being the premiere of Leonard Bernstein's Mass.
• September 9 – September 13 – Attica Prison riots: – A revolt breaks out at the maximum-security prison in Attica, New York. In the end, state police and the United States National Guard storm the facility; 42 are killed, 10 of them hostages.
• September 19 – Ballarat electric tramway system closes.
• September 21 – Pakistan declares a state of emergency.
• September 24 – Britain expels 90 KGB and GRU officials; 15 are not allowed to return.
• September 27–October 11 – Japanese Emperor Hirohito travels abroad.
• September 28 – Cardinal József Mindszenty, who has taken refuge in the U.S. Embassy in Budapest since 1956, is allowed to leave Hungary.
• September 29 – A cyclone in the Bay of Bengal, in Orissa State in India, kills 10,000.
October
• October 1 – Walt Disney World opens in Orlando, Florida
• October 18 – In New York City, the Knapp Commission begins public hearings on police corruption.
• October 25 – The United Nations General Assembly admits the People's Republic of China and expels the Republic of China (or Taiwan).
• October 29 – Vietnam War – Vietnamization: The total number of American troops still in Vietnam drops to a record low of 196,700 (the lowest since January 1966).
November
• November 3 – The UNIX Programmer's Manual is published.
• November 8 – Led Zeppelin releases their Fourth Studio album "Led Zeppelin IV" which goes on to sell 23,000,000 copies.
• November 13 – Mariner program: Mariner 9 becomes the first spacecraft to enter Mars orbit successfully.
• November 24
During a severe thunderstorm over Washington, a man calling himself D. B. Cooper parachutes from the Northwest Orient Airlines plane he hijacked, with $200,000 in ransom money, and is never seen again this case remains the only unsolved skyjacking in history).
December
• December 4
The Montreux Casino burns down during a Frank Zappa concert. The event is memorialized in the Deep Purple song "Smoke on the Water". The casino is rebuilt in 1975.
o The U.S. dollar is devalued for the second time in history.
• December 25
o In the longest game in NFL history, the Miami Dolphins beat the Kansas City Chiefs.
• Ray Tomlinson sends the first ARPAnet e-mail between host computers.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-15, 11:50
Your mind is Wikipedia.

That explains a lot.

Weary
2011-08-15, 12:05
Your mind is Wikipedia.

That explains a lot.
When you get to my age, your mind is where ever you can find it.

Hooch
2011-08-15, 12:41
I've searched my mind.:argh: This is all I could come up with. I may have missed a few things:

1971
January
• January 2
o Ibrox disaster: A stairway crush at the Rangers vs. Celtic football match in Glasgow, Scotland kills 66.
• January 12 – The landmark television sitcom All In The Family, starring Carroll O'Connor as Archie Bunker, debuts on CBS.
• January 15 – The Aswan High Dam officially opens in Egypt.
In Los Angeles, Charles Manson and three female "Family" members are found guilty of the 1969 Tate-LaBianca murders.
• January 31 – Apollo program: Apollo 14 (carrying astronauts Alan Shepard, Stuart Roosa, and Edgar Mitchell) lifts off on the third successful lunar landing mission.
February
• February 4 – Rolls-Royce goes bankrupt and is nationalised.
• February 5 – Apollo 14 lands on the Moon.
Satchel Paige becomes the first Negro League player to become voted into the Baseball Hall of Fame from the Negro League. Jackie Robinson was inducted July 23, 1962.


February 7: Earthquake kills 31 in Tuscania, Italy.
March
• March 1
A bomb explodes in the men's room at the United States Capitol. Weather Underground Organization claims responsibility.
• March 8 – Boxer Joe Frazier defeats Muhammad Ali at Madison Square Garden.
• March 12–March 13 – The Allman Brothers Band plays their famous concert at the Fillmore East.
• March 28 – The Ed Sullivan Show airs its final episode.
• March 29
U.S. Army Lieutenant William Calley is found guilty of 22 murders in the My Lai massacre and sentenced to life in prison (later pardoned).
• April 1 – The United Kingdom lifts all restrictions on gold ownership.
• April 5
Mount Etna erupts in Sicily.
• April 9 – Charles Manson is sentenced to death; in 1972, the sentence for all California Death Row inmates is commuted to life imprisonment.
Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education: The Supreme Court of the United States rules unanimously that busing of students may be ordered to achieve racial desegregation.
• April 24
Five hundred thousand people in Washington, DC and 125,000 in San Francisco march in protest against the Vietnam War.
A tsunami 85 m high rises over the Ryukyu Islands in Japan. It throws a 750-ton block of coral 2.5 km inland.
• April 30 – The Milwaukee Bucks win the NBA World Championship, sweeping the Baltimore Bullets in four straight games.
May
• May
Amtrak begins inter-city rail passenger service in the United States.
The Harris Poll claims that 60% of Americans are against the Vietnam War.
Mariner 8 fails to launch.
June
• June 13
The New York Times begins to publish the Pentagon Papers. [1].
President Richard Nixon declares the U.S. War on Drugs.
• June 18 – Southwest Airlines, a low cost carrier, begins its first flights between Dallas, Houston, And San Antonio.
New York Times Co. v. United States: The U.S. Supreme Court rules that the Pentagon Papers may be published, rejecting government injunctions as unconstitutional prior restraint.
July
• July 5 – Right to vote: The 26th Amendment to the United States Constitution, formally certified by President Richard Nixon, lowers the voting age from 21 to 18.
• July 10 – Gloria Steinem holds her Address to the Women of America speech.
• July 19 – The South Tower of the World Trade Center is topped out at 1,362 feet, making it the second tallest building in the world.
• July 26 – Apollo 15 (carrying astronauts David Scott, Alfred Worden, and James Irwin) is launched.
August
President Richard Nixon announces that the United States will no longer convert dollars to gold at a fixed value, effectively ending the Bretton Woods system. He also imposes a 90-day freeze on wages, prices and rents.
• August 18
September
• September 8 – In Washington, DC, the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts is inaugurated, with the opening feature being the premiere of Leonard Bernstein's Mass.
• September 9 – September 13 – Attica Prison riots: – A revolt breaks out at the maximum-security prison in Attica, New York. In the end, state police and the United States National Guard storm the facility; 42 are killed, 10 of them hostages.
• September 19 – Ballarat electric tramway system closes.
• September 21 – Pakistan declares a state of emergency.
• September 24 – Britain expels 90 KGB and GRU officials; 15 are not allowed to return.
• September 27–October 11 – Japanese Emperor Hirohito travels abroad.
• September 28 – Cardinal József Mindszenty, who has taken refuge in the U.S. Embassy in Budapest since 1956, is allowed to leave Hungary.
• September 29 – A cyclone in the Bay of Bengal, in Orissa State in India, kills 10,000.
October
• October 1 – Walt Disney World opens in Orlando, Florida
• October 18 – In New York City, the Knapp Commission begins public hearings on police corruption.
• October 25 – The United Nations General Assembly admits the People's Republic of China and expels the Republic of China (or Taiwan).
• October 29 – Vietnam War – Vietnamization: The total number of American troops still in Vietnam drops to a record low of 196,700 (the lowest since January 1966).
November
• November 3 – The UNIX Programmer's Manual is published.
• November 8 – Led Zeppelin releases their Fourth Studio album "Led Zeppelin IV" which goes on to sell 23,000,000 copies.
• November 13 – Mariner program: Mariner 9 becomes the first spacecraft to enter Mars orbit successfully.
• November 24
During a severe thunderstorm over Washington, a man calling himself D. B. Cooper parachutes from the Northwest Orient Airlines plane he hijacked, with $200,000 in ransom money, and is never seen again this case remains the only unsolved skyjacking in history).
December
• December 4
The Montreux Casino burns down during a Frank Zappa concert. The event is memorialized in the Deep Purple song "Smoke on the Water". The casino is rebuilt in 1975.
o The U.S. dollar is devalued for the second time in history.
• December 25
o In the longest game in NFL history, the Miami Dolphins beat the Kansas City Chiefs.
• Ray Tomlinson sends the first ARPAnet e-mail between host computers.WTG! (Way To Google)

Nearly Normal
2011-08-15, 19:16
I thought it was the Bee Gees.........

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/bg_hits/bg_hits_71.html

SGT Rock
2011-08-15, 20:03
When you get to my age, your mind is where ever you can find it.

Outstanding answer. I can't stop laughing.:beer:

sheepdog
2011-08-15, 20:05
Outstanding answer. I can't stop laughing.:beer:

:dito:

mudhead
2011-08-18, 12:20
Between the events of 1971 and the music of 1971 I just had a serious blast from the past.

Lot of crap happened back in that time frame.

I didn't click on the whole thing until I matched the music.

Crikey
2011-08-23, 13:30
So, should you cook in a plastic bag, or what?:vroam:

Weary
2011-08-23, 13:33
So, should you cook in a plastic bag, or what?:vroam:
It depends on whether you want to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer or not. I won't, unless I find myself with a spare bag and no pot sometime.

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-23, 13:56
So you're saying that you put your pot in a baggie???

Kanga
2011-08-23, 16:11
oh god weary! what a horrible thought! it would suck to be without pot!

rcli4
2011-08-23, 18:06
It depends on whether you want to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer or not. I won't, unless I find myself with a spare bag and no pot sometime.

If your out of pot, I don't see the need for a baggie

Clyde

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-23, 22:39
That's why if he doesn't have any pot, he'd used the baggie to cook in.

But would he really have the munchies if he had no pot......

It's an enigma wrapped in a riddle surrounded by mystery....

Hooch
2011-08-23, 22:42
That's why if he doesn't have any pot, he'd used the baggie to cook in.

But would he really have the munchies if he had no pot......

It's an enigma wrapped in a riddle surrounded by mystery....Covered by a thick coat of "I Don't Give A Fuck".:aetsch:

sheepdog
2011-08-25, 21:52
It depends on whether you want to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer or not. I won't, unless I find myself with a spare bag and no pot sometime.

Manufacturers don't know everything. I've used the top of my ladder for a step many times. It works.

Superman
2011-08-25, 21:55
Manufacturers don't know everything. I've used the top of my ladder for a step many times. It works.

Hell yeah, I paid for the whole ladder. I'll stand on the top step if I want to.:angel:

sheepdog
2011-08-25, 21:58
So you're saying that you put your pot in a baggie???


oh god weary! what a horrible thought! it would suck to be without pot!


If your out of pot, I don't see the need for a baggie

Clyde


Hell yeah, I paid for the whole ladder. I'll stand on the top step if I want to.:angel:

:top:

mudhead
2011-08-26, 16:14
Manufacturers don't know everything. I've used the top of my ladder for a step many times. It works.


Hell yeah, I paid for the whole ladder. I'll stand on the top step if I want to.:angel:

I took a dive off the top of a step ladder, with a wound up circular panel saw in hand. I have sat on one since, but never stood on one. I'll go get a bigger ladder thank you.

sheepdog
2011-08-26, 22:59
I took a dive off the top of a step ladder, with a wound up circular panel saw in hand. I have sat on one since, but never stood on one. I'll go get a bigger ladder thank you.

sissy :aetsch:

Skidsteer
2011-08-26, 23:04
Woulda made a great YouTube video though.

sheepdog
2011-08-26, 23:10
or osha video

mudhead
2011-08-27, 10:20
I do vividly remember looking at the blade, and blade guard, before I tossed it.

Runt saw but it was wound up.

4 flights of cable spaghetti came down on top of me. Side of a B&B. Those splitters leave marks.

I have a fine selection of ladders for around the house projects.

Superman
2011-08-27, 10:30
I do vividly remember looking at the blade, and blade guard, before I tossed it.

Runt saw but it was wound up.

4 flights of cable spaghetti came down on top of me. Side of a B&B. Those splitters leave marks.

I have a fine selection of ladders for around the house projects.

I have a full assortment of ladders but they are all put away so I stand on what ever is handy. Standing on a rocking chair to do wiring is my favorite. As I've been working on my barn I've been using a 55 gal drum. It's too high on end so I've been using it on it's side.

Skidsteer
2011-08-27, 10:38
I have a full assortment of ladders but they are all put away so I stand on what ever is handy. Standing on a rocking chair to do wiring is my favorite. As I've been working on my barn I've been using a 55 gal drum. It's too high on end so I've been using it on it's side.

Comforting to know there's more than one of us.

DesertReprobate
2011-08-27, 11:25
On the Ranger, I used to climb up on a stack of nukes to work on the wiring in the overhead.

mudhead
2011-08-27, 13:11
I have a full assortment of ladders but they are all put away so I stand on what ever is handy. Standing on a rocking chair to do wiring is my favorite. As I've been working on my barn I've been using a 55 gal drum. It's too high on end so I've been using it on it's side.


Comforting to know there's more than one of us.


The 5 gallon bucket boys.


On the Ranger, I used to climb up on a stack of nukes to work on the wiring in the overhead.

On the rack or on the actual unit?

fiddlehead
2011-08-28, 19:07
Got up to page 7 of this thread and kept thinking some of you might want to know this from John Hopkins: (it's the stuff near the end that is relevant to some questions brought up earlier in the thread)



Johns Hopkins Update -
This is an extremely good article. Everyone should read it.

AFTER YEARS OF TELLING PEOPLE CHEMOTHERAPY IS THE ONLY WAY TO TRY ('TRY', BEING THE KEY WORD) TO ELIMINATE CANCER, JOHNS HOPKINS IS FINALLY STARTING TO TELL YOU THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE WAY .

Cancer Update from Johns Hopkins:

1. Every person has cancer cells in the body. These cancer
cells do not show up in the standard tests until they have
multiplied to a few billion. When doctors tell cancer patients
that there are no more cancer cells in their bodies after
treatment, it just means the tests are unable to detect the
cancer cells because they have not reached the detectable
size.

2. Cancer cells occur between 6 to more than 10 times in a
person's lifetime.

3. When the person's immune system is strong the cancer
cells will be destroyed and prevented from multiplying and
forming tumors.

4. When a person has cancer it indicates the person has
nutritional deficiencies. These could be due to genetic,
but also to environmental, food and lifestyle factors.

5. To overcome the multiple nutritional deficiencies, changing
diet to eat more adequately and healthy, 4-5 times/day
and by including supplements will strengthen the immune system.

6. Chemotherapy involves poisoning the rapidly-growing
cancer cells and also destroys rapidly-growing healthy cells
in the bone marrow, gastrointestinal tract etc, and can
cause organ damage, like liver, kidneys, heart, lungs etc.

7.. Radiation while destroying cancer cells also burns, scars
and damages healthy cells, tissues and organs.

8. Initial treatment with chemotherapy and radiation will often
reduce tumor size. However prolonged use of
chemotherapy and radiation do not result in more tumor
destruction.

9. When the body has too much toxic burden from
chemotherapy and radiation the immune system is either
compromised or destroyed, hence the person can succumb
to various kinds of infections and complications.

10. Chemotherapy and radiation can cause cancer cells to
mutate and become resistant and difficult to destroy.
Surgery can also cause cancer cells to spread to other
sites.

11. An effective way to battle cancer is to starve the cancer
cells by not feeding it with the foods it needs to multiply.

*CANCER CELLS FEED ON:

a. Sugar substitutes like NutraSweet, Equal, Spoonful, etc are made
with Aspartame and it is harmful. A better natural substitute
would be Manuka honey or molasses, but only in very small
amounts. Table salt has a chemical added to make it white in
color Better alternative is Bragg's aminos or sea salt.

b. Milk causes the body to produce mucus, especially in the
gastro-intestinal tract. Cancer feeds on mucus. By cutting
off milk and substituting with unsweetened soy milk cancer
cells are being starved.

c. Cancer cells thrive in an acid environment. A meat-based
diet is acidic and it is best to eat fish, and a little other meat,
like chicken. Meat also contains livestock
antibiotics, growth hormones and parasites, which are all
harmful, especially to people with cancer.

d. A diet made of 80% fresh vegetables and juice, whole
grains, seeds, nuts and a little fruits help put the body into
an alkaline environment. About 20% can be from cooked
food including beans. Fresh vegetable juices provide live
enzymes that are easily absorbed and reach down to
cellular levels within 15 minutes to nourish and enhance
growth of healthy cells. To obtain live enzymes for building
healthy cells try and drink fresh vegetable juice (most
vegetables including be an sprouts) and eat some raw
vegetables 2 or 3 times a day. Enzymes are destroyed at
temperatures of 104 degrees F (40 degrees C)..

e. Avoid coffee, tea, and chocolate, which have high
caffeine Green tea is a better alternative and has cancer
fighting properties. Water-best to drink purified water, or
filtered, to avoid known toxins and heavy metals in tap
water. Distilled water is acidic, avoid it.

12. Meat protein is difficult to digest and requires a lot of
digestive enzymes. Undigested meat remaining in the
intestines becomes putrefied and leads to more toxic
buildup.

13. Cancer cell walls have a tough protein covering. By
refraining from or eating less meat it frees more enzymes
to attack the protein walls of cancer cells and allows the
body's killer cells to destroy the cancer cells.

14. Some supplements build up the immune system
(IP6, Flor-ssence, Essiac, anti-oxidants, vitamins, minerals,
EFAs etc.) to enable the bodies own killer cells to destroy
cancer cells.. Other supplements like vitamin E are known
to cause apoptosis, or programmed cell death, the body's
normal method of disposing of damaged, unwanted, or
unneeded cells.

15. Cancer is a disease of the mind, body, and spirit.
A proactive and positive spirit will help the cancer warrior
be a survivor. Anger, un-forgiveness and bitterness put
the body into a stressful and acidic environment. Learn to
have a loving and forgiving spirit. Learn to relax and enjoy
life.

16. Cancer cells cannot thrive in an oxygenated
environment. Exercising daily, and deep breathing help to
get more oxygen down to the cellular level. Oxygen
therapy is another means employed to destroy cancer
cells.

1. No plastic containers in micro.

2. No water bottles in freezer.

3. No plastic wrap in microwave..

Johns Hopkins has recently sent this out in its newsletters. This information is being circulated at Walter Reed Army Medical Center as well. Dioxin chemicals cause cancer, especially breast cancer. Dioxins are highly poisonous to the cells of our bodies. Don't freeze your plastic bottles with water in them as this releases dioxins from the plastic. Recently, Dr Edward Fujimoto, Wellness Program Manager at Castle Hospital , was on a TV program to explain this health hazard. He talked about dioxins and how bad they are for us. He said that we should not be heating our food in the microwave using plastic containers. This especially applies to foods that contain fat He said that the combination of fat, high heat, and plastics releases dioxin into the food and ultimately into the cells of the body. Instead, he recommends using glass, such as Corning Ware, Pyrex or ceramic containers for heating food You get the same results, only without the dioxin. So such things as TV dinners, instant ramen and soups, etc., should be removed from the container and heated in something else. Paper isn't bad but you don't know what is in the paper. It's just safer to use tempered glass, Corning Ware, etc. He reminded us that a while ago some of the fast food restaurants moved away from the foam containers to paper The dioxin problem is one of the reasons.
Please share this with your whole email list.........................
Also, he pointed out that plastic wrap, such as Saran, is just as dangerous when placed over foods to be cooked in the microwave. As the food is nuked, the high heat causes poisonous toxins to actually melt out of the plastic wrap and drip into the food. Cover food with a paper towel instead.

This is an article that should be sent to anyone important in your life.

Skidsteer
2011-08-28, 19:52
Got up to page 7 of this thread and kept thinking some of you might want to know this from John Hopkins: (it's the stuff near the end that is relevant to some questions brought up earlier in the thread)



Johns Hopkins Update -
This is an extremely good article. Everyone should read it....blah,blah,blah

Exciting stuff, except it's bullshit (http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cancerupdate.asp) and Johns Hopkins never said it.

This is the stuff that clogs up e-mail inboxes worldwide.

Liberals send stuff to liberals that liberals like, conservatives to conservatives that conservatives like, vegetarians to vegetarians that vegetarians like, pedophiles to pedophiles that pedophiles like, etc., etc. and nobody changes their minds. They just smile, nod, and say, "I knew it all along".

Lugnut
2011-08-28, 19:54
Rats! I was getting ready to modify my lifestyle. :argh:

Skidsteer
2011-08-28, 19:59
Rats! I was getting ready to modify my lifestyle. :argh:

If that's true, you owe me at least a case of beer.

Skidsteer
2011-08-28, 20:02
Make that organic beer please. I don't want to get cancer from genetically modified barley.

Big Mac
2011-08-28, 20:39
Exciting stuff, except it's bullshit (http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cancerupdate.asp) and Johns Hopkins never said it.

This is the stuff that clogs up e-mail inboxes worldwide.

Liberals send stuff to liberals that liberals like, conservatives to conservatives that conservatives like, vegetarians to vegetarians that vegetarians like, pedophiles to pedophiles that pedophiles like, etc., etc. and nobody changes their minds. They just smile, nod, and say, "I knew it all along".

I couldn't have said it any better . . . :beer:

Lugnut
2011-08-28, 20:49
Make that organic beer please. I don't want to get cancer from genetically modified barley.

Can it be in plastic bottles?

sheepdog
2011-08-28, 21:11
Exciting stuff, except it's bullshit (http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cancerupdate.asp) and Johns Hopkins never said it.

This is the stuff that clogs up e-mail inboxes worldwide.

Liberals send stuff to liberals that liberals like, conservatives to conservatives that conservatives like, vegetarians to vegetarians that vegetarians like, pedophiles to pedophiles that pedophiles like, etc., etc. and nobody changes their minds. They just smile, nod, and say, "I knew it all along".

I gnu it all along.

sailingsoul
2011-08-28, 21:16
I notice the first 16 points came from a e-mail (2007), that while claiming to be from John Hopkins this (http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cancerupdate.asp) states it isn't.

One might think, well! "Snopes.com" is not John Hopkins Hospital. Why should I believe them?

Funny thing about John Hopkins Hospital, their web site has this (http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/kimmel_cancer_center/news_events/featured/cancer_update_email_it_is_a_hoax.html) in part.


Cancer Update Email -- It's a Hoax!

Updated April 2009

STATEMENT: EMAIL HOAX REGARDING CANCER

Information falsely attributed to Johns Hopkins called, "CANCER UPDATE FROM JOHN HOPKINS" describes properties of cancer cells and suggests ways of preventing cancer. Johns Hopkins did not publish the information, which often is an email attachment, nor do we endorse its contents. The email also contains an incorrect spelling of our institution as "John" Hopkins; whereas, the correct spelling is "Johns" Hopkins. For more information about cancer, please read the information on our web site or visit the National Cancer Institute's web site at www.cancer.gov. Please help combat the spread of this hoax by letting others know of this statement.

In the provided link John Hopkins addresses all 16 point in order.

If I ever have cancer, I must remember to forget anything I've read about it here or at least put it under scrutiny.

Actually I'm surprised and a bit shocked by some of the replies. They have really made me want to remember to think twice about about anything someone might say, without verifying it elsewhere. The value, benefits and requirement for critical evaluation are amplified with some replies I've read on this thread on cooking in freezer bags. SS

sailingsoul
2011-08-28, 21:36
This is some great reading....
:)

hobocentral.... where else can u get trail info, boobies, drunken banter and science! I agree jhick. :smile: SS

fiddlehead
2011-08-28, 21:37
Sorry.
didn't know.

Skidsteer
2011-08-28, 21:58
Sorry.
didn't know.

No worries.

How do you think I found a site like Snopes in the first place.

Yep. I thought the former Nigerian ambassador's nephew got a raw deal.

fiddlehead
2011-08-28, 22:01
To think that I posted that because I'm a liberal or some shit is just mind boggling to me how some people think.
I posted it because I care.
I have a great friend dying from cancer as we speak.
He is overweight and not the healthiest eater.
Every time I get back to the US, I am appalled at the amount of fat (real fat) people.
Yes, I'm sick of it.
I'd like to help these people.
I believe education is the key.

Johns Hopkins SHOULD put out these kinds of things.
How else will people find out?
From TV? Media?

sailingsoul
2011-08-28, 22:09
No worries.

How do you think I found a site like Snopes in the first place.

Yep. I thought the former Nigerian ambassador's nephew got a raw deal.
Well I thought I was first. My computer must be slower than I realized. I got to get a new one. SS

Skidsteer
2011-08-28, 22:13
To think that I posted that because I'm a liberal or some shit is just mind boggling to me how some people think.

The whole point of the liberal, conservative, vegetarian, pedophile thing was to show the universality of the problem. No one is immune if they take what they read on the Internet as Gospel.

FWIW, I agree with the point the spam email made about exercise. It covers a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately it can't beat genetics and that's what really sucks about the big C.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Weary
2011-08-28, 22:39
I thought it couldn't possibly be from John Hopkins. John Hopkins only provides teasers for free. The punch lines always requires a $30 to $40 purchase.

I find the Mayo Clinic sites as a thousand percent better source of free medical information.

John Hopkins is one of the nation's most highly rated hospitals. It's internet site is almost exclusively a way to raise money.

Cuffs
2011-08-28, 22:40
Johns Hopkins SHOULD put out these kinds of things.
How else will people find out?
From TV? Media?

Why do you think they haven't published that kind if thing? Because it's not that simple. You honestly think If you followed those guidelines you'd never get sick, much less get cancer?

Most major research centers only publish what they can prove or at least recreate.

I wish it were as following that little list...

fiddlehead
2011-08-28, 22:44
How do you think I found a site like Snopes in the first place.



Thanks for the snopes link.
I'm learning.
Interesting stuff.

fiddlehead
2011-08-28, 22:53
Why do you think they haven't published that kind if thing? Because it's not that simple. You honestly think If you followed those guidelines you'd never get sick, much less get cancer?

Most major research centers only publish what they can prove or at least recreate.

I wish it were as following that little list...

It's not simple. But I do believe we can help our odds.

There are things that should be abstained from.

Things like: eating fish caught in a toxic sea.
Living under a fly zone (jets) or power lines.
Smelling burning plastic or styrofoam.
Living under the hole in the ozone layer.
Monsanto
Spraying (fogging) your house for insects.
Living downwind of a nuclear disaster. ( I heard the media is suppressing the fallout still going on from Japan's disaster)
Cooking food in plastic sandwich bags.

Lugnut
2011-08-28, 22:53
Fiddlehead, you meant well and it is appreciated! :beer:

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-28, 23:43
It's not simple. But I do believe we can help our odds.

There are things that should be abstained from.

Things like: eating fish caught in a toxic sea.
Living under a fly zone (jets) or power lines.
Smelling burning plastic or styrofoam.
Living under the hole in the ozone layer.
Monsanto
Spraying (fogging) your house for insects.
Living downwind of a nuclear disaster. ( I heard the media is suppressing the fallout still going on from Japan's disaster)
Cooking food in plastic sandwich bags.


I can honestly tell you that cooking in a plastic food bag is the least of my worries.

And chemo isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Most of the people that say they wouldn't take it, don't have to.

fiddlehead
2011-08-29, 02:25
:beer:
Yeah, I just threw that one in there so I wouldn't be accused of thread drift.
Although on this site, I don't know if that's possible.

sheepdog
2011-08-29, 05:56
:beer:
Yeah, I just threw that one in there so I wouldn't be accused of thread drift.
Although on this site, I don't know if that's possible.

I like eggs

MonkeyBoy
2011-08-29, 09:25
I like eggs

...in a ziploc.

Crikey
2011-08-29, 12:43
I like eggs


...in a ziploc.

I cook mine in the styrofoam carton they come in. Adds texture.

SGT Rock
2011-08-29, 15:43
With aluminum powder.

sheepdog
2011-08-29, 16:06
I cook mine in the styrofoam carton they come in. Adds texture.


...in a ziploc.


With aluminum powder.

aaaahahahahahahahahha

john pickett
2011-08-29, 16:34
I like mountain oysters, though I've never tried to fix'em in a ziplock.

Ray
2011-08-29, 17:43
I like mountain oysters, though I've never tried to fix'em in a ziplock.The difficulty is getting them into the Ziplock in the first place.

There's a joke in there somewhere, kind of, y'all work it out yourselves.

Lugnut
2011-08-29, 18:21
What's wrong with using the bag the came in? :albertein

Ray
2011-08-29, 18:27
What's wrong with using the bag the came in? :alberteinIf you can't get them into a ziplock first you'll never get them into the hot water.

sheepdog
2011-08-29, 19:37
What's wrong with using the bag the came in? :albertein

hahahahahahahaha

Amigi
2011-08-31, 19:38
I have boiled food in freezer bags for YEARS. Omelets are one of thee most common meals to bag.
And as someone pointed out, eggs do not require refrigeration if you coat the egg in vaseline.
There are a few other methods of storing eggs long term, but none are hiker/camping friendly.

Ray
2011-08-31, 23:30
I have boiled food in freezer bags for YEARS. I'd think it should be about done by now.

sheepdog
2011-09-01, 00:00
I'd think it should be about done by now.

low and slow

Cuffs
2011-09-01, 00:03
low and slow

No. Long and slow. Oh. Wait. Nevermind.

sheepdog
2011-09-01, 00:04
hahahahahahaha

rcli4
2011-09-05, 09:18
http://www.infowars.com/bpa-death-by-plastic-special-report/