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View Full Version : School Shooting in CT - 27 Dead, mostly kids



Tin Man
2012-12-14, 14:50
http://abcnews.go.com/US/27-people-dead-children-connecticut-elementary-school-shooting/story?id=17973836

Newtown is in my back yard. My son just texted me from college, which is also nearby, "why are people always shooting each other?" I don't know what to tell him. This horrible news already has me on the verge of tears and then he asks me something that no one can answer.

D'Artagnan
2012-12-14, 14:57
I'm just seeing this on CNN now. There are no words that can ever make sense of this.

Wonder
2012-12-14, 15:10
Now that I have read the articles and seen the reports........I can't stop crying. I don't understand! Tinman, my prayers are with you and your neighbors as you go through this.

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 15:14
I am praying for people I don't know, crying for the kids and their families and hoping none of my friends were directly impacted.

Wonder
2012-12-14, 15:20
I am praying for people I don't know, crying for the kids and their families and hoping none of my friends were directly impacted.

I wish that I didn't understand, but I do. Feel free to messege me if you need to.

Superman
2012-12-14, 16:17
I am praying for people I don't know, crying for the kids and their families and hoping none of my friends were directly impacted.

Didn't you folks have another whack job shooting a short time ago?

Ray
2012-12-14, 16:20
Small world. My manager's sister is a teacher at that school and her sister has a daughter there also. Both safe.

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 16:21
Small world. My manager's sister is a teacher at that school and her sister has a daughter there also. Both safe.

glad to hear they are safe

shadowmoss
2012-12-14, 16:39
Wow. At lunch one of my co-workers was saying that the way things are in the US now he is not so concerned about money to retire as he is that the US is no longer safe. He is thinking of staying here in Honduras where it is safer. I looked at him like he was crazy. Now I'm not so sure.

Roots
2012-12-14, 16:59
Tin Man...i'm so sorry for what has happened there and understand how you feel as well. I sat crying when I heard. All i could think about was how i would feel if it were my daughter's school. devastating, horrific, uncalled for...i don't even know how to grasp a thought about it.

Cuffs
2012-12-14, 17:12
I just posted this same thing on fb, but I know many of you arent over there. And please forgive me, I am in no way trying to diminish what has happened today. I just dont have the words to convey how much this hurts me, so Ive refrained from saying anything...

Anyways...

I just know Bob Costas is smiling huge right about now.

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 17:15
My local facebook (not Tin Man FB) is all messages of disbelief, sorrow, grief, etc. People are passing condolences, offers of help, free grief counseling, etc.

Skidsteer
2012-12-14, 17:25
I just posted this same thing on fb, but I know many of you arent over there. And please forgive me, I am in no way trying to diminish what has happened today. I just dont have the words to convey how much this hurts me, so Ive refrained from saying anything...

Anyways...

I just know Bob Costas is smiling huge right about now.

Perhaps. But if he is it's only because he's a giant asshole.

Cuffs
2012-12-14, 17:31
I did not convey exactly what I was trying to say...
Im sure he is feeling sorry for all those affected.

However, his platform and just been proven. And I sure hes happy about that.

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 17:49
The news reports that a neighbor of the shooter, who has been name as Adam Lanza, was a very troubled child and has asperger's syndrome.

Cuffs
2012-12-14, 18:14
Im trying to avoid the news... I hear that the shooter was the son of a teacher at that school??

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 18:20
Yes

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

cool breeze
2012-12-14, 18:40
Don't know what to say or think. It just sucks.

dixicritter
2012-12-14, 18:52
All I can think of are the parents of the children who died. I just want to hug mine tightly and not let them out of my sight, but that's not fair to them. My heart breaks for those families.

Kanga
2012-12-14, 18:58
Didn't you folks have another whack job shooting a short time ago?

Seriously? Bad superman! Bad!

Kanga
2012-12-14, 19:00
Tin Man...i'm so sorry for what has happened there and understand how you feel as well. I sat crying when I heard. All i could think about was how i would feel if it were my daughter's school. devastating, horrific, uncalled for...i don't even know how to grasp a thought about it.that is exactly how I feel too.

gungho
2012-12-14, 19:12
How can anybody be happy this happened and sick fuckers kill people not guns .............

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 19:17
I know so many people who live in Newtown and only getting a trickle of we are safe reports. My heart hurts waiting. They locked down the schools in my town, closing the driveways with snow plow trucks and allowing no pickups - everyone had to take the bus home.

Skidsteer
2012-12-14, 19:24
How can anybody be happy this happened and sick fuckers kill people not guns .............

I am just reading FB with my jaw dropped wide open at the stupid shit people are posting.

I really am beginning to think that the majority of Americans have no concept of the difference between crazy and sane. It scares the fuck out of me to be honest.

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 19:36
Just remembering that Newtown was my first choice of towns to live in before deciding on New Fairfield for an easier commute.

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 19:41
some shrink fuck just said that the shooter killed his mother at home, then killed the kids symbolically representing killing his mother over and over again

Tin Man
2012-12-14, 19:48
One of my friends posted this on facebook... "My heart breaks for the beloved community that I called home for 10 yrs. I mourn for all the victims. Including my neighbor and friend Nancy Lanza. I'm devastated that a boy who once played in my home and with my child could execute his mother and those children. Evil truly does lurk everywhere." ... "she lived a few houses down. Adam was in Allie's grade too. She had play dates with him. He came to her bday parties. Nancy was so nice. I don't understand. Makes me sick"

JAK
2012-12-14, 21:20
beyond senseless

john pickett
2012-12-15, 15:42
"I just know Bob Costas is smiling huge right about now"
If so, he's an evil man.

Tin Man
2012-12-15, 17:48
State police released the names... and I had an OMG moment, one of the names is the same last name as a client and good friend of my office landlord. He also lives in Newtown - probably a grand daughter or grand niece. I was talking to a colleague who lives in Newtown; her daughter babysat one of the victims. More prayers for all the families....

http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Victims-names-released-4121227.php

walkingbear
2012-12-15, 22:15
some shrink fuck just said that the shooter killed his mother at home, then killed the kids symbolically representing killing his mother over and over again

Remember the shooter was a sicko; the shrink could be correct. Some sickos are doing exactly that. He could also have killed the kids as a sick way to get back at his mother.

Tin Man
2012-12-16, 11:47
Newtown is closing the school and sending the kids to another school in nearby Monroe temporarily.

Tin Man
2012-12-16, 11:49
Remember the shooter was a sicko; the shrink could be correct. Some sickos are doing exactly that. He could also have killed the kids as a sick way to get back at his mother.

The police say they collected a lot of evidence from his home and have knowledge of why he did this. This will be released soon.

btw... the school tie-in is now a mystery to the public - his mother didn't teach there after all

Superman
2012-12-16, 13:37
I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother


Liza Long

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

"I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

"They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."

"They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"

"You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan-they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"

"No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

"Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"

"You know where we are going," I replied.

"No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork-"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying-that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys-and their mothers-need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."

I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise-in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill-Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."

I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

liza long is an author, musician, and erstwhile classicist. she is also a single mother of four bright, loved children, one of whom has special needs.

Tin Man
2012-12-16, 14:13
This was just posted by a friend in Newtown:

An incredible act of hate just happened. We were at Mass at St.Rose, and, in the middle of the service, Msgr. Weiss came forward and announced that a threat had been made and that the church had to be evacuated. Hasn't our town been through enough? We have to keep our faith in each other and in God because we, again, have seen true evil in our midst.

Tin Man
2012-12-16, 16:59
Friend of mine...

L2u5E--HY64

Jester
2012-12-16, 22:35
I am outraged that Bob Costas is refusing to take responsibility for the way he is acting in my imagination.

Skidsteer
2012-12-16, 22:39
I just had this vision of you yelling, "Take off that dress Sports bitch!"

Cuffs
2012-12-17, 02:24
Theater shooting in San Antonio tonight...

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/SAPD-investigating-shooting-at-Mayan-movie-theater/2wFsix5ntU2CDrsHjXx2kQ.cspx

SGT Rock
2012-12-17, 08:46
This just breaks my heart every time I hear about the families. I just think of Christmas seasons with presents wrapped and under the tree by families planning to enjoy the holiday together and how in a week they will still be there, reminders of what was taken away.

Senseless.

SGT Rock
2012-12-17, 08:54
I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother.

That was pretty powerful. I've met parents going through things like this. I can only imagine what the father and brother of Adam are going through too.

Roots
2012-12-17, 09:10
I just want to know what the hell is wrong with people!!! Too much of this shit going on anymore.

Tin Man
2012-12-17, 09:10
Just heard that one of the 6 year-old girls on the list has been confirmed as the granddaughter of my office mate's good friend who is also a client of mine. He is here frequently. I am more than just stunned at this point.

sheepdog
2012-12-17, 09:45
I just want to know what the hell is wrong with people!!! Too much of this shit going on anymore.

You should work my job for a while. There are a lot of really screwed up people out there. That is why I always carry a gun.

Cuffs
2012-12-17, 09:52
You should work my job for a while. There are a lot of really screwed up people out there. That is why I always carry a gun.

Amen. Growing up outside Detroit I knew there were some shitbags. But once I graduated the police academy and was on the street. My world and opinions of people changed.
The scale of this event in CT brought it to light but this shit, on a smaller level, goes on every fuckin day.

Lone Wolf
2012-12-17, 10:11
I just want to know what the hell is wrong with people!!! Too much of this shit going on anymore.

mental fuckin' illness. their brain housing group is FUBAR

Roots
2012-12-17, 10:21
It's all fucked up! Mental illness...all of it!

Superman
2012-12-17, 11:46
It's all fucked up! Mental illness...all of it!

Mass killing has always been happening. 1929 was the highest number. These events used to be isolated incidence and local tragedies. Now we have instant news stirring the shit for their agenda. It is as tragic as it's always been ...but it's always been.

Roots
2012-12-17, 11:58
Mass killing has always been happening. 1929 was the highest number. These events used to be isolated incidence and local tragedies. Now we have instant news stirring the shit for their agenda. It is as tragic as it's always been ...but it's always been.

see...that's just it...the more the media plays and plays shit up the more shit like this will happen. its like 'celebrating' a terror act. they hype it up and then add a little 'mental illness' history into the pot . in the long run it makes celebrities out of the whack asshats and leaves every victim in it's shadows. ridiculous...

Nearly Normal
2012-12-17, 12:05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

Superman
2012-12-17, 12:14
see...that's just it...the more the media plays and plays shit up the more shit like this will happen. its like 'celebrating' a terror act. they hype it up and then add a little 'mental illness' history into the pot . in the long run it makes celebrities out of the whack asshats and leaves every victim in it's shadows. ridiculous...

Yes, tragedies happen all the time around the world. There are wars fought that we never know about. Tragedies are still tragedies but more folks are impacted because of the media. There are times when it seems that fires will distroy the country....but then there's crime...but then there natural disasters. All depending on what the media is pushing. Remember...the media is all about the fucking water buffalo.

Cuffs
2012-12-17, 12:23
this happened. No ones covering it...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Two-wounded-in-theater-shooting-4122668.php

And then theres this one... Again, no one covering it...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559496/two-topeka-kan-police-officers-killed-in-shootout/

john pickett
2012-12-17, 16:01
In, I think, 1980, I was employed at a hospital in Amarillo, Tx. I was called stat to the E.R. where I found a young nurse I knew sitting and crying bitterly.
I learned her husband, a city cop and a friend, had been shot with his own sidearm and was being brought to the hospital. He was DOA.
This has been going on longer than civilization.

rcli4
2012-12-17, 16:25
When Iraq was going wide open with the shit, there were more Americans killed in Chicago then Iraq.

Skidsteer
2012-12-17, 17:21
When Iraq was going wide open with the shit, there were more Americans killed in Chicago then Iraq.

But Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the nation. How can this be?

SGT Rock
2012-12-17, 17:23
But Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the nation. How can this be?

Apparently they need to be even mo' striter.

SGT Rock
2012-12-17, 17:25
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

Roots
2012-12-17, 19:53
But Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the nation. How can this be?

Haha...right...wtfever...

ed bell
2012-12-17, 20:38
My cousin posted these two quotes on FB, and not to distract from or ignore the senseless tragedy here, but to give a reminder and suggestion about something that shouldn't ever disappear from people's minds:

Some perspective on the day:

"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.' To this day, especially in times of disaster, I remember my mother's words, and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers – so many caring people in
this world." -- Mister Rogers

Reminds me of the scripture...
...Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

Philippians 4:8

sheepdog
2012-12-17, 20:43
Good stuff Ed!!

JAK
2012-12-17, 22:45
Something needs to be done. Personally I would use it as an opportunity to go after stupid video games. Don't really care about cause and effect. Kids need to get out more. Period. Another thing would be to make outdoors more accessible, and maybe more mandatory outdoor time as part of the education system. I mean beyond recess, like school trips to parks and farms and such. Summer camps. Educate parents to send their kids outside even if its raining. Don't let kids take the bus to school if they live within 2 mile of school, and drop all the other kids off and pick the up two miles away and make them walk also. I shouldn't say 'make' them walk. I really mean 'let' them spend more time outdoors, and to grow up thinking its a natural thing. More green areas around schools, and green walking paths, and keep them safe. People grow up without nature, they go crazy, especially boys.

JAK
2012-12-17, 22:46
Oversimplified. Yeah. But something must be done and it might as well be a positive thing,

Tin Man
2012-12-17, 23:11
Jak, what you just described, I call PPP - pervasive, permissive parenting - which in and of itself is PPP - perplexing, perpetuating pandering - and utterly PPP - piss poor performance - from those who expect PPP - presidents, principals and percussionists - to ensure their kids will have good PPP - perceptions, personalities, perspectives - and a penchant to follow the PPP - pickled pied piper - down the correct path towards PPP - perdition, perks and permissiveness - for generations to come.

SGT Rock
2012-12-18, 00:15
I call BS.

Before video games we had toy guns and played Army, cowboys and indians, police and robbers, etc. Instead of just a mouse click you had to go through the actual motions of pointing a weapon simulated in every way (cap guns even go bang) at a real human being. It didn't make people into spree shooters. In the last couple of years (aside from this) I've heard research into why this is OK because kids get the difference between PLAY and REAL. It is hard wired into mammals - like when dogs can play with each other (looks like fighting) but get that it isn't really to the death or even for injury.

Play some video games, you get it right away this is nothing real. I did it for years, my kids have done it for years, millions (probably billions by now) have been doing it without becoming spree killers. I would call that a pretty darn large pool of test subjects.

These things are like Rorschach tests, when it happens, everyone sees in it what they were already thinking. You see a blob of ink and see someone's head exploding, someone else sees a vagina, and someone else sees a butterfly. What you see in it is more a refection of how you think, then what it really is.

Jester
2012-12-18, 00:33
I see a butterfly landing on an exploding vagina.

SGT Rock
2012-12-18, 00:34
I see a mess. Someone needs to clean that up.

Law Dawg (ret)
2012-12-18, 00:44
Something needs to be done.

Hmmm...nice in theory I suppose but the Devil would be in the details. How would we go about forcing all these? You know they will need to be forced. How about those of us that think that life cheapening acts like millions of abortions since 1973 are probably more responsible for these kind of acts than playing MW on a PS 3, do we get to make all this go away too? Hows that for pointing out an Elephant in the room?

Roots
2012-12-18, 01:50
I see a butterfly landing on an exploding vagina.

Close your legs

sheepdog
2012-12-18, 06:08
If the took that crap off the news 24-7 it might help. Gives every whack job in the country the urge.

Superman
2012-12-18, 07:16
I call BS.

Before video games we had toy guns and played Army, cowboys and indians, police and robbers, etc. Instead of just a mouse click you had to go through the actual motions of pointing a weapon simulated in every way (cap guns even go bang) at a real human being. It didn't make people into spree shooters. In the last couple of years (aside from this) I've heard research into why this is OK because kids get the difference between PLAY and REAL. It is hard wired into mammals - like when dogs can play with each other (looks like fighting) but get that it isn't really to the death or even for injury.

Play some video games, you get it right away this is nothing real. I did it for years, my kids have done it for years, millions (probably billions by now) have been doing it without becoming spree killers. I would call that a pretty darn large pool of test subjects.

These things are like Rorschach tests, when it happens, everyone sees in it what they were already thinking. You see a blob of ink and see someone's head exploding, someone else sees a vagina, and someone else sees a butterfly. What you see in it is more a refection of how you think, then what it really is.

I've always wondered why the doc was showing me pictures of vaginas. I fingured he was nuts.

Skidsteer
2012-12-18, 07:23
I've apparently missed out on this. Which Doctor do I go to to see pictures of vaginas?

Superman
2012-12-18, 07:37
I've apparently missed out on this. Which Doctor do I go to to see pictures of vaginas?

Just ask for the crazy dotor. :angel:

JAK
2012-12-18, 08:00
At least when kids are playing with guns they are getting outside. That is my main point.

Kanga
2012-12-18, 08:35
Close your legs

Oh. My. Gawd.

I fn love you.

Roots
2012-12-18, 09:03
Oh. My. Gawd.

I fn love you.

:) love you!

D'Artagnan
2012-12-18, 09:25
It is sad, but there has been and always will be evil in the world. All we can do is try to help those affected and be vigilant to protect the ones we love. People are looking for simplistic answers and ways to keep things like this from happening again. You simply can't legislate morality.

SGT Rock
2012-12-18, 09:41
At least when kids are playing with guns they are getting outside. That is my main point.

Then set the xBox up outside.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

john pickett
2012-12-18, 10:47
This will be all I say. We need Ben Stien for president. But he's too smart to take the job.
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/17/god-help-us

john pickett
2012-12-18, 10:47
Sorry, that's Ben Stein.

D'Artagnan
2012-12-18, 12:27
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/stop-school-shootings-by-letting-teachers-fire-back-say-texas-officials/

SGT Rock
2012-12-18, 15:42
Leave it to Texas.

Kanga
2012-12-18, 18:45
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/stop-school-shootings-by-letting-teachers-fire-back-say-texas-officials/

all i have to say is, FUCK YES.

Cuffs
2012-12-18, 19:14
And then there's this shitstick

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/dobson-shooting-gay-marriage-abortion/2012/12/18/id/468249

JAK
2012-12-18, 19:31
It is sad, but there has been and always will be evil in the world. All we can do is try to help those affected and be vigilant to protect the ones we love. People are looking for simplistic answers and ways to keep things like this from happening again. You simply can't legislate morality.
or sanity

saimyoji
2012-12-18, 19:40
all i have to say is, FUCK YES.

arming teachers is not the answer. the answer lies with the home life. we have to make parents understand they are the most important teacher. the biggest responsibility lies with them. gotta penalize the douche bags (like take away their welfare money till their kids stop gettin in trouble) and reward the responsible ones (tax breaks, or free gym memberships).

what really bugs me is the fact that the news media has put these little kids through interviews, putting their faces out there for all to see, cementing a legacy that may deepen the scars. and what kind of shit hole parent would say "yeah, sure, my kid was in the room while 8 of their friends got shot. go ahead, ask away." wtf??

in the end, it only makes gas prices go higher....
/rant

sheepdog
2012-12-18, 20:06
arming teachers is not the answer. the answer lies with the home life. we have to make parents understand they are the most important teacher. the biggest responsibility lies with them. gotta penalize the douche bags (like take away their welfare money till their kids stop gettin in trouble) and reward the responsible ones (tax breaks, or free gym memberships).

what really bugs me is the fact that the news media has put these little kids through interviews, putting their faces out there for all to see, cementing a legacy that may deepen the scars. and what kind of shit hole parent would say "yeah, sure, my kid was in the room while 8 of their friends got shot. go ahead, ask away." wtf??

in the end, it only makes gas prices go higher....
/rant

Good luck with that whole parent thing. We got some screwed up generations that just need a multiple darwin award.

sheepdog
2012-12-18, 20:07
Of course my wife says I am a skeptical heartless bastard......

Superman
2012-12-18, 20:20
Of course my wife says I am a skeptical heartless bastard......

...and she knows you best.:ahhhhh:

Jester
2012-12-18, 20:25
arming teachers is not the answer. the answer lies with the home life. we have to make parents understand they are the most important teacher. the biggest responsibility lies with them. gotta penalize the douche bags (like take away their welfare money till their kids stop gettin in trouble) and reward the responsible ones (tax breaks, or free gym memberships).

what really bugs me is the fact that the news media has put these little kids through interviews, putting their faces out there for all to see, cementing a legacy that may deepen the scars. and what kind of shit hole parent would say "yeah, sure, my kid was in the room while 8 of their friends got shot. go ahead, ask away." wtf??

in the end, it only makes gas prices go higher....
/rant

You had me right up until the part about taking away the welfare money of douchbag parents. What do you suggest for all of the douchebag parents who aren't on welfare? What are you thinking of taking away from them?

Hog On Ice
2012-12-18, 20:26
their nuts

Tin Man
2012-12-18, 20:31
You had me right up until the part about taking away the welfare money of douchbag parents. What do you suggest for all of the douchebag parents who aren't on welfare? What are you thinking of taking away from them?

Take away their rubber duckies.

saimyoji
2012-12-18, 20:40
You had me right up until the part about taking away the welfare money of douchbag parents. What do you suggest for all of the douchebag parents who aren't on welfare? What are you thinking of taking away from them?

higher school/income tax rates? tax breaks? free gas cards as incentives? get out of jail free cards?

Ray
2012-12-18, 20:42
You had me right up until the part about taking away the welfare money of douchbag parents. What do you suggest for all of the douchebag parents who aren't on welfare? What are you thinking of taking away from them?Well for gahdsake don't take away their douchebags. Some of us still need to make a living.

saimyoji
2012-12-18, 20:42
their nuts

i have long been, as have many of my teacher friends, a proponent of a licensing program for procreation.

31pQOiclaTo

Tin Man
2012-12-18, 20:42
higher school/income tax rates? tax breaks? free gas cards as incentives? get out of jail free cards?

I vote for taking away their whining. The more taxes they pay, the more they are inclined to whine.

rcli4
2012-12-18, 20:44
I vote for taking away their whining. The more taxes they pay, the more they are inclined to whine.

Horse Piss!

Kanga
2012-12-18, 21:10
i have long been, as have many of my teacher friends, a proponent of a licensing program for procreation.

31pQOiclaTo

Okay, hitler.

Tin Man
2012-12-18, 21:19
Horse Piss!

Must be a ct thing... We like to whine

Cuffs
2012-12-18, 21:20
That shit was in the US before hitler made it popular.

saimyoji
2012-12-18, 23:32
Okay, hitler.


That shit was in the US before hitler made it popular.

Do you have anything more intelligent to say other than invoking godwins law?

john pickett
2012-12-19, 12:40
What's godwins law?

Cuffs
2012-12-19, 12:48
Its old, outdated cliche. Dont worry about it...

Tin Man
2012-12-19, 12:48
What's godwins law?

http://bit.ly/URc9TD

john pickett
2012-12-19, 12:52
Gee, I learn something new here everyday. Now if I could learn something useful?

Tin Man
2012-12-19, 12:56
Gee, I learn something new here everyday. Now if I could learn something useful?

hahaha. you funny

SGT Rock
2012-12-19, 13:14
I hear the Nazis endorsed Godwin's Law.

Tin Man
2012-12-27, 23:50
After visiting a client in Sandy Hook today, I walked to the main memorial site a half-block away. It was something to see. I was about to cry when my cell phone went off. I quickly walked away. I hope business doesn't take me there again until after the memorials and traffic are gone. Surreal.

D'Artagnan
2012-12-28, 09:49
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/28/teachers-in-utah-ohio-get-free-gun-training/

sheepdog
2012-12-28, 11:17
I hear the Nazis endorsed Godwin's Law.

hahahahahahahaha

Weary
2012-12-28, 13:54
Implementing the NRA proposal for officers in every school poses problems for small school systems. My town, for instance, for a century or more had one-room schools, each with one teacher teaching eight grades. In 1958 we closed the last eight schools and replaced them with a consolidated school, with a teacher for each grade. In the 54 years since, that school has had no acts of violence where a police officer would be useful. Our town of 2,200 residents has only a single police officer, who occasionally responds to mostly petty crimes and patrols the town for traffic violators.

Hiring a special armed cop would increase our education costs significantly. I suspect a special officer guarding the school from violent intruders would likely get pretty bored. If the past is any indication such an officer likely would spend their entire working lifetime "protecting" our students without once having to do so. My suspicion is that the person chosen would get pretty rusty, sitting day after day, year in and year out, doing nothing useful.

MonkeyBoy
2012-12-28, 14:04
Implementing the NRA proposal for officers in every school poses problems for small school systems. My town, for instance, for a century or more had one-room schools, each with one teacher teaching eight grades. In 1958 we closed the last eight schools and replaced them with a consolidated school, with a teacher for each grade. In the 54 years since, that school has had no acts of violence where a police officer would be useful. Our town of 2,200 residents has only a single police officer, who occasionally responds to mostly petty crimes and patrols the town for traffic violators.

Hiring a special armed cop would increase our education costs significantly. I suspect a special officer guarding the school from violent intruders would likely get pretty bored. If the past is any indication such an officer likely would spend their entire working lifetime "protecting" our students without once having to do so. My suspicion is that the person chosen would get pretty rusty, sitting day after day, year in and year out, doing nothing useful.

For over a century, people in our town used horse and buggy too.

Besides, I thought the liberals loved paying more taxes to support government workers.

Not to mention, it was Bill Clinton who first proposed law enforcement officers at schools. The Dems loved the idea then.

sheepdog
2012-12-28, 14:14
I believe the NRA called for armed people in all schools. It could be as simple as having teachers who have the skills and inclination to be trained special defense tactics. This would be very cost efficient.

Tin Man
2012-12-28, 14:47
For over a century, people in our town used horse and buggy too.

Besides, I thought the liberals loved paying more taxes to support government workers.

Not to mention, it was Bill Clinton who first proposed law enforcement officers at schools. The Dems loved the idea then.

Post on an old curmudgeon to bore any attacker to death.

rcli4
2012-12-28, 15:17
Implementing the NRA proposal for officers in every school poses problems for small school systems. My town, for instance, for a century or more had one-room schools, each with one teacher teaching eight grades. In 1958 we closed the last eight schools and replaced them with a consolidated school, with a teacher for each grade. In the 54 years since, that school has had no acts of violence where a police officer would be useful. Our town of 2,200 residents has only a single police officer, who occasionally responds to mostly petty crimes and patrols the town for traffic violators.

Hiring a special armed cop would increase our education costs significantly. I suspect a special officer guarding the school from violent intruders would likely get pretty bored. If the past is any indication such an officer likely would spend their entire working lifetime "protecting" our students without once having to do so. My suspicion is that the person chosen would get pretty rusty, sitting day after day, year in and year out, doing nothing useful.

Do you remember the Amish school that had 23 students? I would dare say no violence there before. It can happen in anyschool.

D'Artagnan
2012-12-28, 16:20
Do you remember the Amish school that had 23 students? I would dare say no violence there before. It can happen in anyschool.

Sad but true. Crazy has no boundaries.

SGT Rock
2012-12-28, 18:45
I think that a cop in every school is sort of overkill, and given some of the crazy things that schools have done to the students, I'm not sure giving them an armed "enforcer" would be a good thing. Then again I've never taught in a public school so I don't know how well that would work. Some of the stupid strip search cases we have recently heard about might not happen if someone trained in the legal limits of searching was there to advise against.

That said, when I was growing up many teachers had guns at school. Most that did kept a rifle in the truck or something like that. I don't see a problem with a teacher that has been trained on proper self defense and use of force having a weapon. I don't want to see teachers that are not comfortable with it getting pushed into it.

Israel has many more issues with defense of schools than we do, and they have armed teachers. I haven't heard of that causing an issue over there.

Tin Man
2012-12-28, 19:17
I think that a cop in every school is sort of overkill, and given some of the crazy things that schools have done to the students, I'm not sure giving them an armed "enforcer" would be a good thing. Then again I've never taught in a public school so I don't know how well that would work. Some of the stupid strip search cases we have recently heard about might not happen if someone trained in the legal limits of searching was there to advise against.

That said, when I was growing up many teachers had guns at school. Most that did kept a rifle in the truck or something like that. I don't see a problem with a teacher that has been trained on proper self defense and use of force having a weapon. I don't want to see teachers that are not comfortable with it getting pushed into it.

Israel has many more issues with defense of schools than we do, and they have armed teachers. I haven't heard of that causing an issue over there.

have you read this...?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57560761/israel-rejects-nras-guns-in-schools-claim/

SGT Rock
2012-12-28, 19:30
No I hadn't. You mean I cannot trust the pro-gun lobby either? Man I guess they got one over on me LOL.

Superman
2012-12-28, 19:37
No I hadn't. You mean I cannot trust the pro-gun lobby either? Man I guess they got one over on me LOL.

...or you can consider the source. I don't mean Tin man...in this situation. Every statement out of Israel is political. We've supported them and payed for all the military and wars since 1947, If they make a statement consistant with the current administrations views should be expected.

SGT Rock
2012-12-28, 19:38
I just read the entire thing and one thing I would like to point out I have been hearing on many of these stories is the description of these guns that were used in Newtown and Colorado as "automatic Weapons"


"Automatic weapons of the type Lanza used to gun down his victims are banned for private ownership in Israel."

Automatic weapons are illegal for sale to the average citizen under normal circumstances. Neither of these shootings involved automatic weapons. As I understand it, except for in US movies, automatic weapons used in crimes is almost zero. At least in the last 70+/- years.

saimyoji
2012-12-28, 20:18
I teach high school. Its a giant shit storm just waiting to rain down on us all. There's no hope in sight for reform. Politicians dont care, school boards dont care, most parents are apathetic, others aren't educated enough to think anything other than to blame the teachers or the school.

We're on our 4th generation of "i hated school, my teachers hated me, school doesn't matter" children.

You think school shootings is a problem? We aren't producing enough adults with the intelligence to recognize, let alone fix all the problems in our country.

We are seriously fucked.

Superman
2012-12-28, 20:21
I teach high school. Its a giant shit storm just waiting to rain down on us all. There's no hope in sight for reform. Politicians dont care, school boards dont care, most parents are apathetic, others aren't educated enough to think anything other than to blame the teachers or the school.

We're on our 4th generation of "i hated school, my teachers hated me, school doesn't matter" children.

You think school shootings is a problem? We aren't producing enough adults with the intelligence to recognize, let alone fix all the problems in our country.

We are seriously fucked.

agreed

Tin Man
2012-12-28, 20:35
SHHESH!! tests always did freak me out!! lol Looking good Sarge!! You dont waste any time do ya??!?! Erik

Lol. Everyone chiming in on either side has an agenda. I don't know what to think honestly.

SGT Rock
2012-12-28, 20:43
???? Where did that quote come from?

Tin Man
2012-12-28, 20:45
???? Where did that quote come from?

Wtf? I was quoting you from tapatalk.

SGT Rock
2012-12-28, 20:46
Hmmmm. Must be a bug somewhere.

Hog On Ice
2012-12-28, 22:02
the actual text came from a Test thread from back in 2003-01-07 at 22:48

Jester
2012-12-28, 22:21
I believe the NRA called for armed people in all schools. It could be as simple as having teachers who have the skills and inclination to be trained special defense tactics. This would be very cost efficient.

When all of the TSA security theater went into place, I said: "If the terrorist is in the airport, we've already screwed up."
I feel the same way about guns in teachers' hands being the solution to this problem.
Having taught in high school, I've also seen the level of stress teachers are under on a daily basis. More guns on campus is a bad idea as far as I'm concerned.


Automatic weapons are illegal for sale to the average citizen under normal circumstances. Neither of these shootings involved automatic weapons. As I understand it, except for in US movies, automatic weapons used in crimes is almost zero. At least in the last 70+/- years.

Automatic weapons aren't illegal. Fully automatic weapons are legal in most states, but require an extensive federal background check and a permit from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, which (admittedly) is difficult to obtain.

But this brings up a point I'd like someone to clarify for me. I look at the above statement, which is true (and which is often pointed out by gun proponents). And then I look at the statement, "If you make guns illegal, only criminals will have guns." And I find the two things kind of incompatible. Automatic weapons are regulated to the point that they might as well be illegal, and I never hear about crimes being perpetrated with automatic weapons. Admittedly, this is probably because there are easier weapons to acquire (and despite what some people think, most criminals actually buy the guns they use).

But it at least seems like we have the ability to properly screen who should and shouldn't have weapons, if we actually feel like doing it, right? I guess we just don't.

MonkeyBoy
2012-12-28, 22:57
Screening would have done nothing, because he took them from his dead mother.

SGT Rock
2012-12-28, 23:31
Automatic weapons aren't illegal. Fully automatic weapons are legal in most states, but require an extensive federal background check and a permit from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, which (admittedly) is difficult to obtain.Actually it is illegal for a person (but not the military or law enforcement organization) to own any automatic firearm made after 1986. Only a very small number of weapons that were allowed between 1934 and 1986 can be purchased, and only after extensive checks and approval by the ATF which is not guaranteed. So I cannot go get a license from the ATF and buy a new M4 rifle, I could only buy a weapon that was made before the 1986 law. And that law was made to cover that very tiny number of weapons that were in a loop hole which allowed some weapons to be made and sold after the first automatic weapon manufacturing ban of 1934. If you are interested, you can check and see what that means price wise are on a site like this: http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html or even http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search/Category/952/Guns/Rifles/Class-3/Class-3-Subguns.htm

So before you can buy one of these weapons you need to spend a couple of grand getting a permit to buy one, then you can actually spend the money to buy and old gun. That M4 would cost me about $22,500 if I can get an approval.

So anyway, I stand by what I said, it is illegal to just go buy an automatic weapon. It is highly illegal to modify a weapon to make it automatic. One case gun advocates like to point to is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Olofson



But this brings up a point I'd like someone to clarify for me. I look at the above statement, which is true (and which is often pointed out by gun proponents). And then I look at the statement, "If you make guns illegal, only criminals will have guns." And I find the two things kind of incompatible. Automatic weapons are regulated to the point that they might as well be illegal, and I never hear about crimes being perpetrated with automatic weapons. Admittedly, this is probably because there are easier weapons to acquire (and despite what some people think, most criminals actually buy the guns they use).

But it at least seems like we have the ability to properly screen who should and shouldn't have weapons, if we actually feel like doing it, right? I guess we just don't.
Well in the last big shooting case, the guy killed someone and stole her weapons because he didn't want to wait for a background check that maybe he wouldn't have passed?

In the Colorado shooting case it was a problem of HIPA. And here is going to be the rub of any new laws to prevent people with mental problems from getting a gun.

See, if I go see a doctor and he decides I have a mental issue, there is a HIPA (Health Insurance Portability and Privacy Act) that protects me from my doctor telling anyone about my medical conditions if I do not give them prior approval. If he violates it and I decide to sue him he can loose everything. There are provisions for reporting people with mental problems to LEO if they are deemed a threat to themselves or others. But it is a grey line where you can and should tell someone. If you recall the Colorado case, the mental health person that James Holmes saw was going to (or had been to) a meeting with others at the clinic to decide if his case met the standards. I say that with a caveat that this information is not going to always be accurate in these situations since the media tends to report first and fact check second on that. And what I am saying is what I remember from the days after the shooting, the facts may have "cleared up" days later and I missed it. Anyhow, my point is that health professionals don't want to get their asses in a bind and say someone is a danger and get sued later for causing that person issues when they were not warranted.

There was a move a couple of years back (probably not a really major threat) that I got emails on. See, I have PTSD from Iraq. And the warning was Democrats wanted to have those PTSD cases reported to that database that would make you intelligible to get weapons. It may have just been a scare tactic to get vets to vote Republican, or it may have been someone that didn't understand PTSD wanting to protect society from people like me. But I am not threat to anyone. If I were still in the Army I would still be going to places like Afghanistan armed. I have a federal weapons card issued to me at work from the US Government and I carry a couple of guns issued to me by the DoE. I could even have grenades and machineguns if I were in a position that required them. I can make decisions on when to shoot and when not to shoot. There are probably a million vets like me in the US. We are safe to have weapons. I just hope that in a push to get new laws to protect society from nutbag shooters, we vets don't get rolled up in the net.

Personally I am all for better background checks and hell, even waiting periods don't bother me. But if some drunk kills a family with his Hyundai Sonata, they don't feel a need to make all Hyundai Sonatas illegal. My Assault weapons are likely to never kill anyone. Why should people that will follow the law loose their property and freedom for the acts of criminals when that Sonata becomes a Kel-Tec?

But back to your point. Rifles (and assault weapons are rifles) are only used in about 3% of gun crimes. If you figure that rifles and assault weapons are split down the middle, which is unlikely since there are way more rifles than assault weapons, then you are talking about maybe 1.5% of all gun crimes being committed with assault weapons. So that is pretty close to no crimes like you see with automatic weapons. I would venture to say that it is probably like less than 1%, but I have no data to point to in order to back that up.

Most crimes are committed with handguns. And most of them are committed by small handguns that are easy to conceal. Why? Because it is way easier to walk around with a hidden .38 snub nose or small .25 auto than it is to sneak an AK47 around town. Criminals want to not get caught.

I think I also read that most gun deaths are suicide. I can try and find that statistic again (I am pretty sure that was from the FBI). I imagine if someone that wants to kill themselves bad enough to do it with a gun would find some other way to do it if they didn't have a gun. Guns are convenient and efficient.

D'Artagnan
2012-12-29, 00:30
If you know anyone who has even basic machine shop skills, you can convert virtually any semi-automatic weapon to fully automatic. Legal? No. Possible? Yes. You can even buy stamped-out kits in the flat that can be formed up to make fully automatic weapons. Again, not legal, but possible to obtain. It still comes back to the individual holding the weapon that has the power to do good or evil. Passing new laws or further restricting legal gun ownership, while a salve to those looking for something to ease the pain of Sandy Hook, will have little effect on preventing this from happening again should some warped individual decide he's going to kill. Folks are looking for a simple, tidy answer to the unimaginable and I don't think the answers can ever be so simple.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 00:47
I've not really looked into that. I know it can be done, one of the guys in my squad during basic claimed to have a converted AR.

After using them in the Army I've not felt the need for one. Automatic fire is often just a bunch of missed shots - spray and pray. I can only remember once ever shooting at someone with automatic fire and that was because I was on a machine gun at the instant I needed to shoot (no selective fire) and the target was an accelerating vehicle comming right at us so it was a better response than my rifle would have been. I think the last time I ever used an M16 on auto was training in 1988. Single shot is much better if you know what you are doing. Unless you are in a movie.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

D'Artagnan
2012-12-29, 01:03
I know you don't want to get caught with one. Also, with .223 shells now selling for about a buck apiece, why waste the money.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 01:14
I know you don't want to get caught with one. Also, with .223 shells now selling for about a buck apiece, why waste the money.

Exactly. What is the time on one of those anyway? I've tried to look that up, but these days there is so much on the net about "assault weapons" that any search about automatic weapons laws gets a ton of hits about assault weapons and all the crap from both sides on it.

But I did get this knowledge nugget:
In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the ATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime [PDF].) About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.)

So there are about 120,000 legal machine guns in the hands of private citizens given the fact that no machine guns that are possibly legal for me to buy have been made since 1986. I'm going to venture a guess and say most of those are made prior to 1934 which was the original automatic weapon law, so most of them are probably old Thompsons and the like.

Law Dawg (ret)
2012-12-29, 01:14
Had a very frustrating conversation in the gym yesterday with a woman who just could not understand how easy it is to make things to kill folks with. She was stuck on the "nobody needs assault weapons" mantra. Told her that even though flame throwers are illegal, one trip to the Ace Hardware, the local grocery, and a gas station and I have a workable one for less than $100. That any farm boy knows how to make nitrate explosive devices. She just could not let go of the mantra. History proves that the human race is quite adept and inventive at killing each other. Oh and as a retired lawman the thought of doing school patrol gives me the shivers...talk about a massive mind warping waste that probably would be a failure 98% of the time when actually needed.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 01:15
..talk about a massive mind warping waste that probably would be a failure 98% of the time when actually needed.Sort of what I thought when I heard it.

Law Dawg (ret)
2012-12-29, 01:38
Sort of what I thought when I heard it.

The ROEs of regular patrol work are tough enough, imagine what it would be like in a politically charged environment like a school. Couple that with having to answer to a freakin' school administrator. The poor LEO would be lucky to even be able to go to the bathroom without a hall pass let alone be given the nod to deal with the intelligent psycho with a gun. After Columbine we were blessed with active shooter "training"...translated; "throw your life away so the Sheriff does not have to answer any why didn't your Deputy do something questions" class. We were to basically just grab a partner or three (if you could find any at all) and enter "tactically". When I asked if any thought had been given to (at least) equipping the SGT cars with assault kits (assault jackets, flash bangs, etc) I was told to quit being a trouble maker.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 01:45
We recently started active shooter training for these types of situations, at least we are better prepared for those things than y'all were.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

Tin Man
2012-12-29, 07:04
Okay, now for the lawsuits that say the kids weren't adequately protected...

http://news.yahoo.com/claim-seeks-100-million-child-survivor-connecticut-school-003646074.html

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 09:32
Vultures

rcli4
2012-12-29, 09:57
The folks that grew up watching Popeye have started 3 wars, 2 police actions and to many battles to count. I sure am glad they took that violence of TV!!!

john pickett
2012-12-29, 12:16
"You mean I cannot trust the pro-gun lobby either"
No, it means you can't trust CBS News. But we all knew that already.

Law Dawg (ret)
2012-12-29, 12:29
"You mean I cannot trust the pro-gun lobby either"
No, it means you can't trust CBS News. But we all knew that already.

Well said. A quote from the article;


Israel's policy on issuing guns is restrictive, and armed guards at its schools are meant to stop terrorists, not crazed or disgruntled gunmen, experts said Monday, rejecting claims by America's top gun lobby that Israel serves as proof for its philosophy that the U.S. needs more weapons, not fewer.

So then a creep that slaughters dozens in a public school is not a terrorist!? Then security at an Israeli school would not have shot this goon? Oh and while we are at it what "experts" said that? Just a smidge of critical thinking might help to sort through agenda based "journalism".

john pickett
2012-12-29, 12:30
One solution, I think, would be to ask for volunteers from the school staff; Especially the coaching staff. These are generally athletic, often young, and are prone to physical activity. I would bet you could find at least one volunteer in each school who would be willing to train for and maintain a CCW permit. If a school had no volunteers, then place an officer on campus.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 12:45
Someone that attacks a school full of children has to submit a request through the Israel government prior to committing an attack. If the form states they are doing it for political reasons, then I guess the armed guards can return fire. But if they answer "batshit chickenpoop aliens pudding pop" then the guards will not shoot back because that guy is obviously crazy.

Bearpaw
2012-12-29, 12:50
I am CCW trained, a middle school teacher, a coach, a Marine veteran with major tactical firearms training, and I could carry my little Ruger .380 in my pocket holster and no one would ever be the wiser. If something happened in the 8th grade hallway, on the other side of the school, it would still take a while to get there, but my kids in my classroom would have a much better chance than the ones in Connecticut.

We had an SRO, a full-time policeman, until this year. He was cut along with a number of teachers due to budget cuts.

Superman
2012-12-29, 13:05
I am CCW trained, a middle school teacher, a coach, a Marine veteran with major tactical firearms training, and I could carry my little Ruger .380 in my pocket holster and no one would ever be the wiser. If something happened in the 8th grade hallway, on the other side of the school, it would still take a while to get there, but my kids in my classroom would have a much better chance than the ones in Connecticut.

We had an SRO, a full-time policeman, until this year. He was cut along with a number of teachers due to budget cuts.

Any changes they make now will soon be cut due to the budget...unless it would let teachers carry at their own expense.

Jester
2012-12-29, 13:23
Any changes they make now will soon be cut due to the budget...unless it would let teachers carry at their own expense.

That's what I want to know -- who's expected to pay for all of this? Nobody wants there property taxes to go up around here to fund schools. For any reason. Nobody. Regardless of political affiliation. And everybody says they'd like teachers to be paid more, right up until it comes time to pay more.

And before people jump in with the belief that allowing armed teachers doesn't cost anything: when I was a teacher, I was a monitor in the lunchroom, for which I got paid more. If I was not only a teacher but also acting as a security guard, I'd damn well expect to be paid more for it. I know you're going to say that you wouldn't, and that you'd really just love to be able to protect yourself, but I put that in the same category as people saying they'd love teachers to be paid more. It sounds nice right up until it comes time to do it.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 13:43
They let you teach?

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Jester
2012-12-29, 13:45
They let you teach?

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Well, it was Arizona. Their standards are pretty low.

Superman
2012-12-29, 13:46
That's what I want to know -- who's expected to pay for all of this? Nobody wants there property taxes to go up around here to fund schools. For any reason. Nobody. Regardless of political affiliation. And everybody says they'd like teachers to be paid more, right up until it comes time to pay more.

And before people jump in with the belief that allowing armed teachers doesn't cost anything: when I was a teacher, I was a monitor in the lunchroom, for which I got paid more. If I was not only a teacher but also acting as a security guard, I'd damn well expect to be paid more for it. I know you're going to say that you wouldn't, and that you'd really just love to be able to protect yourself, but I put that in the same category as people saying they'd love teachers to be paid more. It sounds nice right up until it comes time to do it.

Holy crap the teacher's union would have a melt down over teachers providing security without being paid for it.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 13:51
Well, it was Arizona. Their standards are pretty low.

At least it would have been a fun class.

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Bearpaw
2012-12-29, 14:02
That's what I want to know -- who's expected to pay for all of this? Nobody wants there property taxes to go up around here to fund schools. For any reason. Nobody. Regardless of political affiliation. And everybody says they'd like teachers to be paid more, right up until it comes time to pay more.

And before people jump in with the belief that allowing armed teachers doesn't cost anything: when I was a teacher, I was a monitor in the lunchroom, for which I got paid more. If I was not only a teacher but also acting as a security guard, I'd damn well expect to be paid more for it. I know you're going to say that you wouldn't, and that you'd really just love to be able to protect yourself, but I put that in the same category as people saying they'd love teachers to be paid more. It sounds nice right up until it comes time to do it.

I wouldn't expect a penny more to be able to carry a weapon in school that I carry for free elsewhere. I would carry it now, except I can't legally do so. And every teacher does lunch duty and bus duty at our county schools on a rotating basis. It is part of your job, and nobody gets paid extra for it. Of course, Tennessee is a right to work state, and I'm not a member of the union. It might actually work here.

Jester
2012-12-29, 15:28
At least it would have been a fun class.

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It was. Sophomores, World History. There were many hats and costumes involved. Sometimes it seemed more like an episode of the Jerry Springer Show than a high school classroom. We had a good time. Learned a lot.

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 19:31
Here is an example of media making a big deal out of nothing:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2012/12/28/tsr-dnt-l-a-gun-buyback-gets-rocket-launchers.cnn

These launchers are one use throw away launchers that are often given to units after they are used as training devices. Probably a couple of guys took them home as souvenirs. they are less dangerous than a lamp. But we look like we are in a "Third world" country according to the report. And "an example of how military weapons end up in the wrong hands" according to their expert who misidentifies them as RPG rocket launchers. Some expert.

saimyoji
2012-12-29, 20:32
Y'all should email cnn and let them know about their shitball research and reactionary journalism. If'n you don't, who will?

SGT Rock
2012-12-29, 20:44
About as useful as hearding cats.

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Tin Man
2012-12-29, 21:12
About as useful as hearding cats.

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I heard cats aren't useful for anything.

woodsy
2012-12-29, 21:16
I heard cats aren't useful for anything.

Not true, they kill rodents

rcli4
2012-12-29, 21:45
they taste good to

Tin Man
2012-12-29, 21:50
they taste good to

when i worked in nyc and we went for chinese lunch, my friend would say, 'decisions decisions, cats or dogs?'

Wonder
2012-12-30, 11:02
Jester, I never knew you were a teacher, but after our ride around Gettysburg, I bet you were A damn good one!

SGT Rock
2012-12-30, 11:03
I agree. That was an excellent tour. Though I think to really get Gettysburg you probably need a couple of days or ambling around and learning about it.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 11:08
Lots of good reading available on Gettysburg... favorites are written by those who were there.

SGT Rock
2012-12-30, 11:08
I read Killer Angles a couple of years ago, it is a good overview.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 11:14
I read Killer Angles a couple of years ago, it is a good overview.

That was one of the titles I was looking for. There was another that took place before that and was pretty good as well. I have another 3 book series somewhere that is supposedly very good that I will have to dig out.

Perhaps as a soldier you may be more in-tune with the actual battlefield tactics, more so than I could ever appreciate.

SGT Rock
2012-12-30, 11:20
It is hard to get them out of a book It helps a lot more if there are map representations of where ever thing was. I think with Killer Angels it helped that I had walked the battlefield. Although I think if I walked the battlefield again I would get more out of it because I read the book.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 11:26
It is hard to get them out of a book It helps a lot more if there are map representations of where ever thing was. I think with Killer Angels it helped that I had walked the battlefield. Although I think if I walked the battlefield again I would get more out of it because I read the book.

Let me know when you are going. I would like to do it again with someone who knows tactics. Of course, I don't think anything could be more frightening than staring across the field from the confederate's position before Picket's charge.

SGT Rock
2012-12-30, 11:33
That is a scary proposition. Two places I would not want to be is in the center during the charge, on either side. And over on the flank, the hook at Little Round Top. Where the 20th Maine fought against the men from Alabama and Texas.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 11:40
That is a scary proposition. Two places I would not want to be is in the center during the charge, on either side. And over on the flank, the hook at Little Round Top. Where the 20th Maine fought against the men from Alabama and Texas.

Yep, Little Round Top was my second choice of where not to be. I really don't undertstand what Lee was thinking...other than we are here, let's fight and pray for the best.

SGT Rock
2012-12-30, 11:52
I think he decided he had a chance to end the war right there and went for it. A gamble he lost.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 11:55
i wonder how many times in the history of war that same thought went through a general's mind

Wonder
2012-12-30, 11:57
I'm pretty sure I have a copy of Killer Angels, and have not read it yet.......I need to do that.

The walking tour of Gettysburg was awesome!!! When it was over, I was lucky enough to ride around the park with Jester until dark. His knowledge of Gettysburg history is vast! It was the only battle in the entire war where my family members on both sides faced one another.......so I've always had a deep intrest in that particular battle. Of course, I don't think I'll be lucky enough to get that personal tour again. Everytime I ride in Jesters truck, the thing breaks down...............

SGT Rock
2012-12-30, 12:01
We need to have a fucktard vacation to Gettysburg.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 12:01
My Grandfather lived less than a half hour away and took us around Gettysburg every Thanksgiving when I was a kid. He told us some of it like he was there... wish I could remember more of those tours...

Been back a couple times since with the scouts on Remember Day - weekend before Thanksgiving - when there are a lot of reannactos and candle lit graveyard at night. Awesome.

Wonder
2012-12-30, 12:13
I lived for 22 years, less then 2 hours from Gettysburg and never managed to get there. My parents took me to many revolutionary war sites, but never civil war. I went by myself when I was 22, and I'm so glad I did. I think that my first trip there needed to be solo. It's a solemn place.

I would like to go back. I still haven't seen everything. Belew and I have talked about going on our way home from Philly sometime, but haven't made it. I would be up for a group trip up there.

Lugnut
2012-12-30, 12:16
Maybe we could find a local campground and convince Jester to be our tour guide. I'm in.

Wonder
2012-12-30, 12:21
April would be a perfect time! Not too busy, and the weather is pretty nice that time of year. Campground wise, it's less then a half hour from Pine Grove Furnace

Jester
2012-12-30, 12:22
Any time you guys want to go, I'm in.

Keep in mind that Killer Angels, while well researched, is a fictional account. There are books that take place before (Gods and Generals) and after (The Last Full Measure), although these were written by the son of Michael Shaara and are not as good, in my opinion. Whatever you do, DON'T see the movie Gods and Generals. It's just awful.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 12:26
Now this would be a fucktard meeting I could make...

SGT Rock
2012-12-30, 12:30
Any time you guys want to go, I'm in.

Keep in mind that Killer Angels, while well researched, is a fictional account. Good point.


Whatever you do, DON'T see the movie Gods and Generals. It's just awful.Too late. But you are absolutely right. It ain't worth the time watching it.

Bearpaw
2012-12-30, 18:14
Any time you guys want to go, I'm in.

Keep in mind that Killer Angels, while well researched, is a fictional account. There are books that take place before (Gods and Generals) and after (The Last Full Measure), although these were written by the son of Michael Shaara and are not as good, in my opinion. Whatever you do, DON'T see the movie Gods and Generals. It's just awful.

Gods and Generals is what happens when you leave NOTHING on the editing room floor. It would have been better if it were an hour and a half shorter.

Weary
2012-12-30, 19:07
....., I thought the liberals loved paying more taxes to support government workers.

.....
In my experience, "liberals" are a pretty amorphous group. They believe in all sorts of things. Nor was, or is, Clinton a liberal by any rational definition. (I know, being rational excludes what now passes as "conservative" but whatever, irrational is an increasingly common human trait.)

However, in many, perhaps most, states local property taxes pay mostly for school costs. I know of no one in my small town who recognizes this simple fact, who, liberal or conservative, also thinks that a one-third increase in school costs to cope with a virtually nonexistent threat makes sense.

Tin Man
2012-12-30, 19:42
In my experience, "liberals" are a pretty amorphous group. They believe in all sorts of things. Nor was, or is, Clinton a liberal by any rational definition. (I know, being rational excludes what now passes as "conservative" but whatever, irrational is an increasingly common human trait.)

However, in many, perhaps most, states local property taxes pay mostly for school costs. I know of no one in my small town who recognizes this simple fact, who, liberal or conservative, also thinks that a one-third increase in school costs to cope with a virtually nonexistent threat makes sense.

As was mentioned before and attributed to the NRA, hiring a resource officer is problematic for small school districts. Those, like you, who feel they must continue to ignore thoughtful posts and just get on your high horses to promote narrow-minded thinking simply isolate themselves and their agenda. In other words, debate is good, stump speaches, not so much.

JAK
2012-12-30, 23:14
The Democrats and Republicans both suck up and sell out to big money. The differences are mostly smoke and mirrors, and slight of hand. Don't get me wrong. There are real important political and philosophical differences in society. I just don't think society is well served by defining those differences in terms of one political party versus another, or even conservative vs liberal. It's better dealt with one issue at a time, and neither of those two political parties of professional lawyers and politicians have any moral grounds to take leadership when they've both been screwing with the average citizen and taxpayer as they have. It's all a farce, the NRA as well. If I feel the need to carry a gun I will carry a gun, but it doesn't have to become a religion. As for guns in schools, sure, but it should be seen as an emergency measure, certainly not as progress, if it comes to that, and perhaps it has in many or most places. But it's a damn shame, especially when we are talking about arming ourselves against kids. If anything we should be taking up arms against banks and corporations stealing our money, not the government that fails to represent us against them. Nor should we waste much time deciding who is crazy and who is not, and who should be allowed to exercise the right to bear arms and who should not. If the rules cannot be spelled out plainly and clearly for all to see, then its not really democracy is it. The real motive here is in arming some people against others. Rich vs Poor. Black vs White. Full citizens vs Lesser Citizens or Non Citizens. Whatever. Truth is the modern 2nd amendment movement was started by the Black Panthers, and the NRA is just a reaction to it. Action. Reaction. Action. Reaction. While the extreme wealthy manipulate and move their money wherever it happens to be safest.

JAK
2012-12-31, 08:34
Didn't have my V8.

john pickett
2012-12-31, 10:16
Do you usually have your V8 with a shot of adult beverage stirred in?
I find it works for me.

sheepdog
2012-12-31, 10:17
hehehehehehehe

Hog On Ice
2012-12-31, 10:47
anybody do V8 and espresso?

Skidsteer
2012-12-31, 12:50
anybody do V8 and espresso?

What is that? Like the human equivalent of a dog eating grass?

sheepdog
2012-12-31, 12:52
What is that? Like the human equivalent of a dog eating grass?

that would look bad on a light colored carpet.

JAK
2012-12-31, 14:35
that would look bad on a light colored carpet.

What floor treatment does go best with V8 and espresso?

Wonder
2012-12-31, 14:49
Linoleum.....

Hog On Ice
2012-12-31, 14:52
bushes outside the tent

JAK
2012-12-31, 14:57
We call this a Bloody Caesar.
If you have too many and your speech becomes slurred it might become a Bloody Siezure.
They are still pretty good though, even after, and as long as your celery is still stiff you can keep using it.

JAK
2012-12-31, 14:57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(cocktail)

sheepdog
2012-12-31, 15:25
When I was a young man, midnight shift used to go out for a beer at 0800. We called it choir practice. At the bar we would see all the locals with a drinking problem. We all knew each other. The alchys would drink tomato juice and beer. The first couple their hands were pretty shaky. After a couple they started to smooth out.

Hog On Ice
2012-12-31, 16:47
only a minor reference to coffee in the wiki: "Contests held across Canada to celebrate the cocktail's 40th anniversary in 2009 encouraged variants that featured the glass rimmed with Tim Hortons coffee grinds, Caesars with maple syrup and Caesars with bacon-infused vodka."

john pickett
2013-01-01, 20:40
The thought of drinking something with clam juice in it is enough to soil the floor in front of my chair.
If someone gave me a drink with clam juice, I would probably be ok as long as I never knew of the clam
juice. The moment i learned of the clam juice, I would probably soil the floor in front of my chair.

john pickett
2013-01-09, 10:53
The Hartford Conn. Courant (newspaper) reports teachers in Ohio and Texas are being offered free concealed carry classes. And the classes are sold out! Who would have thought? http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-training-teachers-to-use-guns-0109-20130108,0,4582657.story

Cuffs
2013-01-09, 11:08
There are private schools in Alabama that are now hiring plain clothed people (parents) with CCW as security.

Law Dawg (ret)
2013-01-09, 12:45
The Hartford Conn. Courant (newspaper) reports teachers in Ohio and Texas are being offered free concealed carry classes. And the classes are sold out! Who would have thought? http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-training-teachers-to-use-guns-0109-20130108,0,4582657.story

And yet in the link Texas Rep Anchia is bleating about armed citizens around children. These are the same ignorant types who often ask stupid stuff like why law enforcement can't shoot guns out of a killer's hands instead of killing them. Or want to ban semi auto guns because they are black and have a bayonet lug. Armed qualified teachers is the only way to reduce the carnage because nobody can honestly expect a single armed guard to cover an entire school. Even then complacency will take a toll when folk get tired of the hassle of carrying concealed for years with nothing happening.

SGT Rock
2013-01-09, 16:27
Lets face it too, most likely the people applying to be school armed police guards are probably not going to be the best people available for the job. Guys like Bearpaw would be much better just being there and having a gun.

Cuffs
2013-01-09, 19:56
well, the reason I mention it is that the one school that I know of doing it, picked a someone I know personally and will do a great job at it. Otherwise, I agree, need a retired military person or LEO...