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Sgt.Krohn
2004-06-14, 20:26
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000959.html

Mutinousdoug
2004-06-14, 23:52
Sgt Krohn;
Can you tell from the post (or do you know) if the fabric pattern is the same as USMC digital? Looks similar.
I traded a "new in wrap" SKS we captured in Cambodia for a set of USMC camo fatigues after we got back to the RVN side of the border. Seemed like a good deal at the time (1970).
Hardware-software; where's the value?

Doug

Sgt.Krohn
2004-06-15, 00:21
it's similar but not the same
the Marines have two new "digital" MARPAT patterns
a desert and a woodland
the Army is trying to cover both with one pattern

from the article-
"Members of the Army's Stryker brigade have been testing out the uniforms in Iraq since last year. The whole Army should be in the outfits by 2007."

BTW- my old battalion (3/21 Gimlets) is one of the new Stryker Forces attached to 1stBde.25thID

I got rid of my old Kalashnikov, AR-15, Mini-30 etc...
all I have left is a very tuned SteyrMannlicher Model"M"Pro in 30.06

I'd rather have two good sets of real Nam plain green fatigues that fit. I need them for canoe/kayak racing. The copies are junk!

Mutinousdoug
2004-06-15, 01:31
I guess it wouldn't be the same since the USMC pattern has the Anchor and Globe in it...
My old 5/7th Cav was reactivated in May this year to replace the 1s tBde 3rd ADA (Air Defence ?) as the 5th Sqd 7th Cav Armored Recon Btn with their own Air and Arty.
Probably not much interest to most campers here, but it's of interest to old guys like you and me.
That SKS in 1970 was my first and last Kalashnikov, but I enjoy shooting NRA matches with my Garand and an AR 15 "spacegun" (cause I can't see that post front sight 20" in front of me anymore).
I do my big game hunting with a muzzleloader, rabbits or grouse with a .22, and once and awhile someone takes me to shoot clays or trap with my Dad's old guns. (so my gunsafe is way too full)
And my GI jungle pattern fatigues are in rags. But I've got a big ol' Resistol slouch hat with 5/7th crossed sabers pin on the front for Veterans day.

GarryOwen,
Doug

SGT Rock
2004-06-20, 19:30
Anyone know if they switched to a poly-cotton to replace straight cotton?

SGT Rock
2004-06-22, 13:36
From an information paper I received in official e-mail:

INFORMATION PAPER

June 10, 2004

SUBJECT: Army will Announce Selection of the New Army Combat Uniform on June 14, 2004, during the Army Birthday Celebration

1. PURPOSE: To provide staff an overview concerning the decision to issue a new Army Combat Uniform (ACU) to replace the existing Battle Dress Uniform (BDU).

2. The ACU: Consists of a jacket, trousers, patrol cap, moisture wicking t-shirt and improved hot weather and temperate weather desert boots, in a new Universal Camouflage pattern (the charts on pages 3 and 4 outline uniform and design characteristics).

The new ACU is the culmination of many months of research and development, developed by Soldiers for Soldiers, and is the uniform of choice by the overwhelming majority of the Army’s leaders and Soldiers.

The ACU enhances Soldier performance by providing a uniform that is tailorable to the individual mission; provides enhanced functionality and ergonomics over the existing BDU; and does away with requirements to procure uniforms focused on specific environments -- the ACU is worldwide deployable.

The uniform will be fielded to deploying units starting in April 2005, and fielding to the entire Army will be completed no later than December 2007.

Projected annual cost increases are $24.2M (Fiscal year 2004—FY04); $31.7M (FY05); $142.4M (FY06); and $143-144M (FY07-08). No additional funds are needed for FY05, and the Army is currently addressing the outyear funding through its resource planning process.

The $88 cost of the new uniform jacket and pants (a $34 increase over the current BDU) is expected to be offset by:
· Proposed increase in the monthly Clothing Replacement Allowance for enlisted Soldiers;
· A permanent press treatment that eliminates the need for Soldiers to pay for costly dry cleaning of their uniforms;
· No added cost to Soldiers for additional sewing due to Velcro, or pin-on patches, nameplates and badges;
· Army-wide savings realized by streamlining procurement and stockpiling of one uniform for all environments instead of maintaining the BDU in the woodland, desert and temperate patterned uniform sets; and
· Manufacturing costs that will decrease overtime as the manufacturing processes are refined.

The Army Black Beret will remain authorized for wear with the new ACU; no decision has been made concerning whether the ACU will replace any uniform other than the BDU.

The ACU, including component materials, will be manufactured in the United States using the same industrial base that produces the current BDU, thereby, ensuring the highest quality control and assisting the American work force.

The ACU is part of the Army’s continuing effort to equip the Army’s Future Force now and to provide America’s Most Deployed Combat System, our Soldiers, the best, state-of-the-art equipment possible.

3. Questions and Answers:

Q.1 Why is the Army selecting a new uniform?
The ACU was designed specifically by Soldiers to meet the demands of the current operational environment. Because of its universal camouflage pattern and enhanced versatility, comfort and ergonomic qualities, the ACU will increase our Soldiers ability to train, adapt and fight in the ever-changing environments wherever future wars will be fought. For instance, the current BDU was designed 25 years ago, before the Army routinely wore ballistic body armor. The Small Arms Protective Inserts that go into the Outer Tactical Vest require the Interceptor Body Armor to be worn closed. The ACU compliments the Interceptor Body Armor by improving access to pockets and eliminating comfort issues, such as the Small Arms Protective Inserts pressing the current BDU shirt buttons into the chest of the Soldier.

Q.2 What will be the lifetime of the uniform?
ACU is made with the same nylon/cotton rip-stop fabric as the current Enhanced Hot Weather BDU (EHWBDU). The current EHWBDU has an estimated wear life of six months.

Q.3 Why will the uniform not require starching?
A wrinkle-free treatment has been applied. Starching uniforms makes the uniform material more brittle and subsequently reduces the wear life. The wrinkle-free treatment will allow Soldiers to wear the ACU without incurring costs of commercial laundering or pressing.

Q.4 What will be the wear-out date for the current BDU?
The Army will introduce the ACU in April 2005. Wear-out date for BDU is to be determined. Production ramp up of the ACU will cause production of the BDU to end in early FY06. Residual stocks of BDUs will be sold or issued until exhausted. The wear out date will be established based on when stocks are exhausted. The wear out date will provide an adequate amount of time for Soldiers to procure the ACU.

Q.5 Why was the digitized print chosen over the more traditional camouflage?
There are a number of potentially effective technologies to provide effective camouflage. The ACU leveraged a digitized print developed by the U.S. Marine Corps (USMC). The Army modified the USMC pattern and used alternate colors to provide an effective camouflage in multiple environments.

Q.6 Who will get the uniform?
All Soldiers, regardless of unit or function, will receive the new uniform. The ACU will be fielded to the Army – Active, Reserve and National Guard beginning in April 2005.

Q.7 Who will pay for it?
New enlisted Soldiers (Active Army – Clothing Bag, U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) and Army National Guard (ARNG)) will receive an initial issue of 4 each ACU (Army expense); prior Active Army enlisted Soldiers receive a Clothing Replacement Allowance (CRA – Army expense); prior enlisted USAR and ARNG will be issued the ACU as required (Army expense); officers will buy the ACU (at their own expense) from the Army Military Clothing Sales Stores; and deploying enlisted Soldiers and officers will be issued ACUs at the Army’s expense.

Q.8 Why is there an increase in the cost of the ACU?
The ACU costs $88, a $34 increase over the BDU. The increase results from an $8 wrinkle-free treatment and the remainder is based on the additional manufacturing complexity. The uniform is more complicated to make because of its enhance functionality. This cost will decrease over time.

Sgathak
2004-06-22, 19:35
While Im not sure this uniform will work in all terrains as expected (only time will tell), the use of the chosen colors and many of the improvements made are things I have been preaching for several years now (of course back then, I called it "deer like brown", as coyotes are mostly grey :D)... I especially preached the use of grey. It blends almost everywhere, is eyeball neutral, and by dumping black you increase your blend-ability automatically. Black was included to provide cotrast, however as was shown in the Tiger Stripes, contrast that is counter to the surrounding area doesnt work... and contrast in an area where there IS NO contrast is just as bad. Dump the black, and you can let the available shadows provide for you, the same contrast they do for the animals, and youll be GTG.

Glad to see this... hope it works as expected.

SGT Rock
2004-06-22, 20:07
I think the thing that buggs me is the implementation. I will probably retire about 2009, and I will have to buy ALL NEW UNIFORMS!

Sgt.Krohn
2004-06-22, 20:37
Top-
If your timing is right :rolleyes: for your next deployment- they'll issue them to you at the the Army's expense :D

SGT Rock
2004-06-22, 20:46
Yes, probably, but In would rather buy them than get deployed :D

Streamweaver
2004-06-22, 21:23
That camo design looks alot like that fishing camo they sell at Bass pro shops ,Cabelas etc. Streamweaver

Sgathak
2004-06-22, 22:25
I hope they dont get all namby pamby whimpy like the Corps and copyright this uniform. Unless I can talk the Army into letting me back (been trying for 3 years, no dice yet, not holding my breath) I dont think Ill ever get ahold of some if they do that.

I do enough "activities" that require the use of decent camouflage, and I wont use EGA MARPAT and CADPATs no good around here... Theres a Russian company making a non EGA version of MARPAT, and Im trying to talk them into making it in a non NATO styled uniform so I can wear it without explaining all the time to my Crybaby - I .. uh.. mean... uh... Marine - buddies that its not the same as the MCCUU

Oh well, we'll see

Sgt.Krohn
2004-07-04, 12:24
Here's a response about the new fatigue design from a Nam vet who is now a Ranger's Dad- from "Soldiers For The Truth"
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Special%20Reports.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=262&rnd=930.3715840150637
------------------------------

Ranger Dad Sounds Off
21June2004

My Ranger son just filled me in on the new BDU's that the Army will be issuing in the upcoming year. I'm not addressing the digital camo, but the Army's brainless idea to incorporate velcro with these uniforms.

With the new uniforms rank insignia and division patches will be attached to the uniform with velcro instead of being sewn onto the uniform. In lieu of buttons, velcro closure tabs and zippers are also part of the new uniforms. Has someone lost their minds?

How many grunts will be KIA because a division patch catches on something in the dark and is ripped off the uniform with the unmistakable sound of velcro being removed? Having walked through Elephant Grass, and vine choked jungle I can assure you that anything attached to our fatigues with velcro would have gotten us KIA damned quick. I can just see old SFC Pryor, my platoon sergeant at Nha Trang kicking our asses if we had worn anything that made noise on our uniforms!

I addition, the new t - shirts are going to be 100% polyester. My God, how many guys will fall from heat stroke wearing these garments?

Maybe it's time the Army recycled some of us over the age of 50 who remember what it was like to be at deaths door if you gave away your position. At least we could tell these dumb asses what will help keep our grunts alive. Hell, what's wrong with the old style rip stop or poplin fatigues we wore? New doesn't always mean improved.

I am becoming more concerned with my son surviving an Army that seems to be trying to get its soldiers killed than I am the enemy that's shooting at them.

Ranger Dad

SGT Rock
2004-07-04, 12:52
Q.2 What will be the lifetime of the uniform?
ACU is made with the same nylon/cotton rip-stop fabric as the current Enhanced Hot Weather BDU (EHWBDU). The current EHWBDU has an estimated wear life of six months.

Well the materail is the same thing as what we wear for hot weather BDUs so no extra heat stroke, and if someone is SMART, they will take the crap off before going on a combat patrol. There are some uniforms in the inventory alreay that use velcro and that is what we do. My only concern really is tearing them up all the time. The polyester t-shirts he is complaingin about are the coolmax t-shirts I now buy to use instead of cotton. I hate to say it, but it sounds like the guy is complaining from being out of touch with things and not knowing the whole picture.

Sgathak
2004-07-04, 13:32
Apperently "Ranger Dad" has a missed a few news flashes, product developments, and a good decade and a half of SF, Force Recon, SEALs, PJs, and Rangers (like his son) doing these mods to their uniforms for the tactical advantage they provide.

Not one of these new features hasnt been put through its paces, and they have proven themselvs again and again.

SGT Rock
2004-07-04, 16:40
I applaude the dad's devotion to the soldiers and his son, but he has leaped before he looked on this. I will say I have heard about this no-press coating on the uniforms. Apparently it extends the life a little, but it is also slightly waterproof. The complaint was sweat pooling around the legs. I haven't worn a set myself to verify this. As has been said, a lot of these modifications have ben out there a while like moving the lower pockets to the sleeves and putting a map pocket in the PC. The slant on the cargo pockets for the trousers sounds like a good thing, and the pen pockets are also a cool idea. What I would like to see now are some better boots.

Pencil Pusher
2004-07-24, 03:50
Man I don't like those uniforms. Not having woodland camo and the lack of pockets suck. They never should have ditched the bill cap for the black beret, so I'm glad to see it back. Though I am way out of touch...

Sgathak
2004-07-24, 07:21
Errr... ummm they didnt get rid of any pockets, they actually added 2 more to the pants for a total of 8, and moved the bottom patch pockets from the jacket to the sleeves like SF, SEALS, PJs, and all the other high speed low drag super soldiers have been doing since the early 90s... makes them functional while wearing armor. While I agree the the beret was a bad idea, the PC has remained in service while out in the woods... and the beret is still the standard for garrison wear. In fact it looks kinda sharp with this pattern... which Im still not sure will work as advertised, but then again, it just might work better... so dont bemoan the death of woodland yet ;)

Pencil Pusher
2004-07-24, 15:10
Cool beans, thanks for the correction. It's nice to hear they never totally phased out the bill cap. Though when I see troops wearing this new stuff, it'll be just one more change in life that reminds me I'm becoming an old man :)

Sgt.Krohn
2004-07-24, 23:49
The next chapter in the saga of the new BDUs :biggrin:

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=DefenseWatch.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=573&rnd=409.116060804885

Sgathak
2004-07-25, 07:18
LOL, that article didnt even have pictures of the Air Farce monstrosity...

blackdog
2004-08-04, 03:25
I wonder what you think about these...
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2004/n07272004_2004072705.html

SGT Rock
2004-08-04, 09:35
I can't even begin to imagine the headaches. I should be a retired soldier by that time.

smokymtnsteve
2004-08-05, 11:24
I can't even begin to imagine the headaches. I should be a retired soldier by that time.

Retire soon...take a hike..it's only money

btw..why can't we have a little possum in the smilie choices?? :smile:

SGT Rock
2004-08-05, 12:18
you find me a possum smilie and I will add it